Tank Assassins (and Shadows) are ruining PvP.

[Kotadiatu]

Jesus Christ.. constantly with the complaining about imbalance in PVP..

I am a Powertech in PVP. I have no issues with Assassins, Marauders or any other class or their mirrors. I just play my class well, and know how to counteract them. Play your class more, and complain less. I have no issues and I'm doing fine.

[Golren]

People like to say "this game isn't balanced around 1v1" a lot on these forums. I remember that phrase coming from WoW's developers, but I can't remember BioWare mentioning anything about 1v1 balance...

 

Even in premades, a lot of 1v1 occurs in warzones, be it defending a node in Alderaan/Voidstar/Novare while help comes, or tackling someone sneaking near your goal in Huttball.

 

I don't think "1v1 doesn't matter" is a valid argument.

[Raphezir]

Stealth and survivability is not OP. Your damage is laughable compared to real dps classes. If you go dps gear, you will get steamrolled and still do less damage than a decent dps class. If you go tank gear you will live for a long time, but I won't be worried about your damage. It's the self heals (which any good maruader/sentinel has) and survivability that annoys people. That and the freaking stealth stun haha.

 

In a 1v1, the only way you kill me is if I play like an idiot or start at half health. With a pocket healer that I can't reach you are indestructible, but then again, you put a pocket healer on a Marauder/Sentinel, and they will farm your ugly tank assassin, and the next 5 guys who try to come near him without breaking a sweat.

 

And here we go again people claiming tank shadows have no dps. I think you should not hit 400k dmg and 100k protection in the same match (voidstar ofc) with about 60k heal but thats what we do. There are classes with higher dps but ours is not laughable at all. 400k dmg with 4,4k hits is just too much for a spec with all that tools. Or as I said in another thread:

Autocrits on the Project with 50% extra damage when Force Potency is up + 45% chance of throwing a 2nd Debris that deals 50% additional damage. And when I'm at that point you get my 175% Tele Throw, which if it crits takes 8k from you in 4 ticks in 2s and because i stunned you, you take more damage from every source. Many people are dead before i get below 80%.

The self heal might be a nice gimmick but the real issue is, that you have way too high dps for playing in a tanking stance and tanking tree, that lets me use the knockdown out of stealth, gives me 5 seconds lol mode, a pull and 30% better Force Reg, next to my force speed, force wave and blackout.

Edited April 25, 2012 by Raphezir
typo

[KodiakAsh]

I have a tankasin and it's pretty good. The class just has the right mix of survivability and enough damage (especially after Expertise healing nerf) to pretty much take anyone I need to on out and survive if things get hairy. I don't find it ridiculously OP and find most of it's damage burst revolves around the guaranteed Shock crit and all the boosts to Shock (Chain Shock, etc).

 

That said I look at the history of these forums and it's not hard to tell it's going to get nerfed alongside Marauders.

 

Everyone whined holy hell about Operatives and they got an axe taken to them. Everyone whined about Tracer Missile/Grav Round and it got nerfed. Everyone whined about healers being too strong and heals got nerfed. Just going to be a matter of time at this point of when they do the big nerfs to Sin damage and Marauder defense. It doesn't matter whether or not you agree whether or not those are problems they're simply the latest thing people whine about.

[Mathelia]

so many baddies in this game it hurts ... don't come on the forum complaining just because you don't have the necessary brain function to counter a class.

[Kriesha]

I am quite happy to ruin your pvp, thank you very much. And it also gives me great pleasure to read about it.

[kinkaid]

I am quite happy to ruin your pvp, thank you very much. And it also gives me great pleasure to read about it.

 

I brought some biscuits and cookies to sop up the tears.

 

OP, I do not agree at all. Not knowing how to interrupt, CC, play yer roll, teamwork, use situational awareness, knowing how a WZ is won, knowing when to hold em and when to fold em, when to walk away, when to run is ruining PvP.

[drahzaar]

Jesus Christ.. constantly with the complaining about imbalance in PVP..

I am a Powertech in PVP. I have no issues with Assassins, Marauders or any other class or their mirrors. I just play my class well, and know how to counteract them. Play your class more, and complain less. I have no issues and I'm doing fine.

Rofl. My friend was topping dmg yesterday in all blues with his powertech. I'm sure you try super hard

[Goldenstar]

I don't think "1v1 doesn't matter" is a valid argument.

 

You can't LET 1v1 be something you try to develop around. There's 8 different classes in this game, you'll NEVER be able to balance around 1v1 b/c those 8 classes each play a particular role in PvP. The best you'll ever be able to do for 1v1 is create a rock-paper-scissors situation.

 

4v4 and 8v8 are the only organizations you should even try to balance.

[Emencie]

And here we go again people claiming tank shadows have no dps. I think you should not hit 400k dmg and 100k protection in the same match (voidstar ofc) with about 60k heal but that's what we do. There are classes with higher dps but ours is not laughable at all. 400k dmg with 4,4k hits is just too much for a spec with all that tools.

 

Then your problem really isn't with tank shadows... but rather with Any DPS class with a taunt?

 

I don't have a 50 guardian (yet) but it seems pretty much even to me on my vanguard. My vanguard deals a lot more damage has way more mobility, control and range, with the same amount of protection but quite a bit less survivability. My shadow has a lot less damage less mobility, a lot less control and range the same amount of protection, and a lot more survivability.

 

I would also wager that if people saw how much Guardians(I think) and Vanguards. were healing they may change their tune about shadows. While perhaps not up to the standards of my shadow, my Vanguard is popping off Adrenaline Rush so often I feel the healing has to be close.

 

I like my shadow. But in no way do I feel He is > everyone not a shadow. in fact there are so many situations where I find my Sage Op or Vanguard just hands down better. Also I would point out that I recently respeced my shadow to balance (for pve reasons) and found that target killing was not only easier but faster too. So KC isn't even the end all be all spec for Shadows. It was an eye opener to see the amount of darkness assassins I was able to defeat and easily. It was a surprise to me because I like many thought that Darkness/KC was the only way to go. Simply isnt true.

 

In fact I personally feel that Assassins/shadows as a whole are in a good position right now. no matter which spec you are in pvp and pve they are just all around good. And I think some classes or perhaps specs. should be brought up or down to their level of effectiveness.

[DarthKhaos]

And here we go again people claiming tank shadows have no dps. I think you should not hit 400k dmg and 100k protection in the same match (voidstar ofc) with about 60k heal but thats what we do. There are classes with higher dps but ours is not laughable at all. 400k dmg with 4,4k hits is just too much for a spec with all that tools. Or as I said in another thread:

Autocrits on the Project with 50% extra damage when Force Potency is up + 45% chance of throwing a 2nd Debris that deals 50% additional damage. And when I'm at that point you get my 175% Tele Throw, which if it crits takes 8k from you in 4 ticks in 2s and because i stunned you, you take more damage from every source. Many people are dead before i get below 80%.

The self heal might be a nice gimmick but the real issue is, that you have way too high dps for playing in a tanking stance and tanking tree, that lets me use the knockdown out of stealth, gives me 5 seconds lol mode, a pull and 30% better Force Reg, next to my force speed, force wave and blackout.

It depends on the situation. If I focus on being in combat all match and have a pocket healer those kind of numbers is going to happen regardless of what tank advance class I play. If you're more focused on objectives it's not as easy to get those **** numbers. You guys are letting those numbers lul you into a belief of OPness. The problem is people just do not know how to PvP. It's not just about knowing your class but knowing all the other classes in the game. I know exactly what the other classes can do in general. I know how to exploit the weaknesses of said class. So the majority of encounters I enter I win. Doesn't matter what class I play. As long as I took the time to learn the class well and know about the other classes I already have the advantage.

[thefishdude]

It's interesting how many ppl ignore gear when QQ about these classes. I'm Full BM with 2 pieces of WH gear. Around 1200 expertise and 1600 willpower. Of course I'm dominating newbies when they attack me; however, if I fight a similarly geared person, then the fight is on. If i'm focused by two similarly geared ppl, then it's game over.

 

Also, ppl claiming that a Sin/Shadow had over 650K damage in a wz....please post screenshot. If it did happen, then they're fighting newbies and not geared ppl.

[Sookster]

It's interesting how many ppl ignore gear when QQ about these classes. I'm Full BM with 2 pieces of WH gear. Around 1200 expertise and 1600 willpower. Of course I'm dominating newbies when they attack me; however, if I fight a similarly geared person, then the fight is on. If i'm focused by two similarly geared ppl, then it's game over.

 

Also, ppl claiming that a Sin/Shadow had over 650K damage in a wz....please post screenshot. If it did happen, then they're fighting newbies and not geared ppl.

 

Prepare for some people to post their screenshots, I've personally seen 550K+, not 650K though. I asked what he did with his gear and he stacked tons of power.

Edited April 25, 2012 by Sookster

[thefishdude]

Prepare for some people to post their screenshots, I've personally seen 550K+, not 650K though. I asked what he did with his gear and he stacked tons of power.

 

I stack power too. However, what those screenshots won't tell you is who were they fighting. You'll never see a 600K damage from a sin/shadow against equally geared teams.

[Astarica]

People like to say "this game isn't balanced around 1v1" a lot on these forums. I remember that phrase coming from WoW's developers, but I can't remember BioWare mentioning anything about 1v1 balance...

 

Even in premades, a lot of 1v1 occurs in warzones, be it defending a node in Alderaan/Voidstar/Novare while help comes, or tackling someone sneaking near your goal in Huttball.

 

I don't think "1v1 doesn't matter" is a valid argument.

 

It's not like Tankasins are weak in group combat. With powerful AE, guard, and taunt they're probably one of the best classes in group combat too. This isn't like the pre nerf Operative that was actually pretty bad in group combat since there are more ways to get knocked out of stealth when you get into a big fight so even though 1on1 they almost always win due to stealth, they are conisderably worse in big fights. No such problem here for Tankasins.

[Astarica]

Not really. Let's take the assumption that a Shadow/Assassin Tank can best ANY single class 1v1 just might take longer. Then you're saying a group comprising of only Shadow/Assassin Tanks can win all the time? 3 Shadows/Assassin tanks can win against say a Marauder/Sentinel, Operative/Scoundrel healer & Powertech/Vanguard tank combo? What about Mercenary/Commando, Sniper/Gunslinger/ Sorcerer/Sage combo? Of course not so the dynamics in group .vs. 1v1 change. The outcome of the fights change so looking at the game solely from a 1v1 perspective is wrong.

 

Because a class with taunt, a crippling AE debuff that does good damage, and guard is going to be really bad in large fights?

 

If anything Tankasins are even more powerful in large scale fights.

[Astarica]

I stack power too. However, what those screenshots won't tell you is who were they fighting. You'll never see a 600K damage from a sin/shadow against equally geared teams.

 

Err nothing hard about doing that on 'equally geared teams'. I did 510K damage on Alderaan yesterday while my team was severely outclassed and lost, but that's because their team had 5 healers (yes, 5). Screenshots depend more on team composition than gear composition.

[Raphezir]

It depends on the situation. If I focus on being in combat all match and have a pocket healer those kind of numbers is going to happen regardless of what tank advance class I play. If you're more focused on objectives it's not as easy to get those **** numbers. You guys are letting those numbers lul you into a belief of OPness.

 

Well, you might right on that but I didnt want say things like: I **** bad geared people in 10 seconds and the rest in 20-30 seconds. If there is only one guy defending a turret in Alderaan, its mine (unless hes a healer). I just didnt want to sound like these RoXXors but what really luls me into a belief of OPness is just that. I will kill anyone guarding an objective pretty fast, not as fast as real dps classes but fast. Then I can guard that objective against 3 enemies long enough to get backup. I can carry the ball, pull, taunt and stun people, guard friends. Most of that is the same for the other tank classes but my stealth is an huge advantage in objective based warzones. I dont have a guardian but I can say that my Vanguard deals less damage in the tank tree, while I get almost everything i want in the 31/0/10 spec of the shadow.

[Notnicematt]

i play a tank assassin in dps gear, full battlemaster with 3 augmented war hero peices. my spec is 31/0/10. again all dps stalker gear and i augment for crit.

 

im a skilled player and yes i play my class very good and just yesturday alone, i 2v1'ed a bounty hunter and a maurader. they both where bad, and that does not mean my class is op. i dont know what gear they where wearing but it appeared to be atleast some battlemaster on both, again just looking at the colors of the gear, but i do know they where either ill specced, or their major abilities where on cd and mine were not. same game, i run to mid in the huttball, grab the ball, cd's are up, no resolve, start getting attacked by a jugg, pop my cd's... they dont last long, get slowed no healer on me, 10-15 seconds later, boom dead....... res up, try again....wasnt attacking him, as in pvp is not designed to be 1v1, its a team effort... again team effort... idk if you have not read this far in but let me remind you.....TEAM EFFORT.

 

moral of the story is... sometimes you own face, and sometimes you get your face owned. dont blame the class blame the player.

 

yes, i can solo bounty hunter and sorc healers, but do i solo all of them, no, there are a couple very skilled ones on my server that understand class mechanics and i cant do crap against them.. are they OP? no just skilled. they watch my buffs, see me get my 3 stack, wait for lightning and what do they do.... eat it... no way only a fool would.....its called a knockback, on my server it happens to me 75% of the time.. cause there are skilled people there and they know how to counter each class... what does that mean for me... no 1600 lighting crits and no heals.... FML! now what do i do, i know! more DPS! ok, whither is up... shock is up.... nice.... try again...

 

 

End of story time!!!! what did we learn... learn other classes to counter them....get better gear.....and work as a team..... and dont blame class OP due to getting owned.

[SinnedWill]

Yeah, I've seen my tank-asin's Maul (with duplicity proc), Shock (energized proc + recklessness) and Assassinate all deal over 4400 crit damage without trinkets/adrenals nor damage bonuses from "Nerve Wracking" on equally geared sage/sorc's without bubbles up. My Harnessed Darkness empowered Force lightning will do ~ 8k total damage without trinkets/etc to most targets - albeit, a stun or knockback can screw it up so I try to save it for when I'm at full resolve in crucial situations. Yeah, Assassin/Shadow groups are becoming increasingly popular and we/they have begun to stagger our taunts, so it's becoming nearly impossible for groups of mixed classes to counter, even if we're facing off against another coordinated premade team that isn't full of sins. Victories are becoming increasingly easy (since all the wiser players now leave a WZ if they realise they're facing ourassassin group is in any warzone even if the match hasn't begun) - Novare Coast usually takes ~ 4 minutes to win, hutt-ball takes about the same, civil war isn't terribly much longer but sometimes we can't manage to reinforce against a zerg in time while we defend all 3 turrets. Voidstar takes the longest if we're defending first, but ends instantly once room 1 detonates. It certainly makes me feel dirty to play tankasin, and have begun to dabble more with Deception - madness isn't my thing for an assassin.

[TheronFett]

Lots of new issues and information being brought to light in this exhilerating thread.

 

QFT. Shadow/Sin tank hybrid specs have been out of whack since beta.

[Notnicematt]

QFT. Shadow/Sin tank hybrid specs have been out of whack since beta.

 

what is a hybrid spec to you, please tell us..... im 31/0/10 and that is not hybrid, i respect completely up darkness... and ya im might not spec all 41 points in there, but only a fool would do that with any class. .... please tell me what your "hybrid spec" is.... how about you link it buddy....

[DarthKhaos]

Because a class with taunt, a crippling AE debuff that does good damage, and guard is going to be really bad in large fights?

 

If anything Tankasins are even more powerful in large scale fights.

Not really. Mass Tankadins are not. Here we have another situation where people really do not know how to play. Unless the group is REALLY well cordinated then it's easy to get the upper hand on multiple tankadins. First thing is this they don't got a dedicated healer so they will be dropping. Second focus on the one who cast the guard not the one with the guard on them. Even with the taunt debuff a serious DPS class on em with a healer backing em up will not lose and if they try to focus on the healer who keeps mobile they are not gonna come out on top.

 

Tankadins do high dps on the end score not because they got crazy dps it is because they have longer fights. ANY smart Tankadin from the start of the fight guards a healer and sticks near em. The healer is happy for the guard and will do all they can to keep em alive because the Tankadin or any tank for that matter is helping em survive. Let's be honest the most powerful tanking class in the game is Powertech/Vanguard because you can't run away from em. You getting too far grapple if you wanna stay near the objective. Jetcharge if yu got the luxury of moving away from where you're standing. To top all that off they got WAY more range where they can be dealing dmg to you. Guardians/Juggs or Shadows/Assassins got to be in their face or no dmg.

[Varicite]

I stack power too. However, what those screenshots won't tell you is who were they fighting. You'll never see a 600K damage from a sin/shadow against equally geared teams.

 

Of course you will. The other team just needs healers that aren't stupid, and voila, 500k+ damage as long as you can keep yourself alive long enough to deal it.

 

Probably see it less often now that healers are rerolling, heh. Conversely, you just need to not die and be near enemies (who also don't die quickly) the majority of the time. 2 AoEs as part of your main damage rotation will take care of the rest.

Edited April 25, 2012 by Varicite

[wtfnonamefree]

Does anyone remember late beta, when assassin got nerfed (15m range > 10m range)? 'Unplayable' and broken was thrown around...xD

 

Just think about the qq, if they reverted it and fixed the assassin's training bug - 15m range as well as plus 25% shock damage!

 

btt: Imo the Tankasin is overtuned, but the qq is thrown out of proportion as well. Let me quote myself from another thread on the same topic:

 

For the record - I main Tankasin and chose to do so when I first logged in during late beta. I didn't care whether that class/spec would be strong or not - it's not the first mmo I play and I am conscious of the obligatory buff/nerf cycle - I just liked the concept of the AC and intended to tank in PvP, if possible.

 

When I hit 50, geared myself up, embraced the buff in 1.1.3 (iirc) and finally switched from the survivor to the stalker set, I was glad to discover that we were at the top of the food chain. Tankasins were the duel kings and excelled both in group and solo situations in the warzones.

 

For 1.2 I predicted a nerf and hoped for a redesign of the defense mechanics in PvP (thus making the tank sets viable in PvP). Well I was wrong.

 

Still, we don't exactly know how the new metagame will play out. 8m premade play will definitely shift the perceived value of the ACs. Same goes for the gearing process - it will be different when the majority of the players runs modded wh gear. Maybe we will even see new specs have their patch duration of fame (snipers, I am looking at you:))...

 

Even though there are classes, that surpass us in terms of survivability or dps/burst - they never do in both (well, except maras ofc). And no other AC surpasses us in the utility department. Add to the mix, that the difference in survivability and damage compared to our respectively stronger peers is not too big and you'll come up with the godmode jack-of-all-trades you all know and love:p

 

But please do not forget, that the difference isn't as big as the qq crowd wants to believe as well. Maras are unarguably at a very strong spot atm, maybe the strongest, juggs just got buffed, too, pyro pt damage is insane right now, operatives are still able to do their thing if in capable hands, etc....

 

Long story short - balance actually is quite fine atm. Only Sorcs, Mercs and Medics got the shaft for now, while Maras and Tankasins shine a little (exact diference being debatable) too much.

 

Often it is just a l2p issue, but in the case of Tankasin - there is truth in the complaints. We are neither unkillable nor the strongest damage dealers - but we have the best package of them all.

 

There are many ways to approach this issue, here are just a few alternatives:

 

- change dc (tanking stance) to an increased damage penalty (and add an aggro modifier to counteract for PvE)

- make tank stats viable in PvP (involving drastic changes to the overall PvP situation; probably the hardest to do, but my personal favorite)

- buff the other AC's survivability/utility/damage to get them on par (aka balance around this gem of an AC:D aka what they allegedly intend to do)

- nerf force shroud aka the best spell in swtor, maybe increase cd (hard to counterbalance for PvE, though...)

 

Maybe, due to the 'new metagame after patch 1.2' reasoning above, there isn't even a need for any changes to the Tankasin. Just let them fix the other ACs, if necessary.

 

That said, I'd be totally cool about tweaks like the above, as well. Hell, I could even live with a severely gimping nerf, just to get it over with...xD As I said in the beginning - buff/nerf cycle, its's an mmo constant. Enjoy it in the good times, endure it in the bad times. After being at the top for quite a while, it can be quite healthy to experience a change for the worse again. Playing through such a patch is pure practice and this will be ever the sweeter when the next buff comes around in a subsequnt patch.

 

tl;dr - Op is right imo. As a Tankasin player I may be biased. Still I perceive them as borderline op, but would recommend downtuning the qq - wait for the metagame to settle.

Edited April 25, 2012 by wtfnonamefree