Tank Assassins (and Shadows) are ruining PvP.

[allexj]

Why do Assassin/Shadows have their Project/Shock & Telekinetic Throw/Force Lightning fixed at 10m in comparison to the Sage who gets it buffed to 30m once they get their advanced class. And then they just completely throw the class mechanics away and give them a 30m stun.

I never understood that.

 

Tank Assassins:

The only Tank class that can remove snares by themself

Can commit only ONE talent point to increasing their shield chance by 10% - Vanguards have to commit 5 talent points for christ sake, Juggernauts can only get 4%

Have the highest internal/elemental defense without the help of third party buffs, from their own utility buff, which in comparison makes their buff the most tank viable.

Can completely remove all debuffs on them and make themself immune for 3 seconds, again the only buff which is truly viable for a tank in comparison.

Has the most cooldowns

Has the most stuns

Has the most aoe's

Has the fastest energy regeneration mechanic (being force power, it doesn't slow down or alter in anyway like Juggernaut/Guardians whilst in Soresu Form's rage gain, it doesn't lower your recovery rate the more consumed/exhausted your energy is like Vanguard/Powertech ammo system/Heat system)

Can remove ALL snares, the ONLY type of cc as it were that doesn't add resolve, and the skill that does this effect (Force Speed), it's cooldown is also reduced when you spec this tree.

Has a talent point that at it's peak can inflict 75% extra damage with Force Lightning/Telekinetic Throw - That's the HIGHEST talent based passive damage increase that exists in the game, and it only requires 3 talent points, not 5.

If you actually take a look, every other talent in the game that increases damage whether due to skill activation, proccs or trigger rates, NONE exceed 50% except this one... in a tank spec. I've seen people hit 8k with this skill on full bm... if this is normal then why are people ************ about ravage?

 

 

ok First OFF NO there is no way we can hit for 8k unless there in damage gear then well they can tank atall.....the highest proc i have ever gotten with the WZ red boost on, Force Potency, and a relic poped with the damage buff up is 2.5k.....did yall know that our damage is reduced by 5%^ while were in tanking stance?

[KaKiMi]

ok First OFF NO there is no way we can hit for 8k unless there in damage gear then well they can tank atall.....the highest proc i have ever gotten with the WZ red boost on, Force Potency, and a relic poped with the damage buff up is 2.5k.....did yall know that our damage is reduced by 5%^ while were in tanking stance?

 

Telekinetic Throw is a channeled attack so if you're saying you do 2.5 per tick then thats 10k overall... *** is your point? I'm pretty sure 5% is a laughable matter. If you don't use relics/adrenals in pvp then your just bad.

Edited April 20, 2012 by KaKiMi

[allexj]

Telekinetic Throw is a channeled attack, I'm pretty sure 5% is a laughable matter. But if you don't use relics/adrenals in pvp then your just bad.

 

didn't i say i did use them. With the wz damage buff on, force Potency, the buff from my class, a relic poped. and even when i deiced to use a stim for damage is still dose not do over 3k..sorry go back to SWTOR and look at yoru number again....oh and first off i was talk-en about project not TK u can get rid of that move all to gethere i dont use it unless i need a heal LOL

Edited April 20, 2012 by allexj

[KaKiMi]

didn't i say i did use them. With the wz damage buff on, force Potency, the buff from my class, a relic poped. and even when i deiced to use a stim for damage is still dose not do over 3k..sorry go back to SWTOR and look at yoru number again

 

The damage I suggested was 2k which is the highest i've seen a shadow do on me, now you're saying you've never seen it go over 3k. Again it's a channeled skill that ticks 4 times.

So basically you're saying it's possible to do more than what i've seen, you insinuate that it's only do-able with dps gears and not tank gears. And you're saying some pointless stuff about if you were to use full adrenals + relics.

how about you go back to swtor, and grind your class until you're decent enough to talk, you're just arguing with yourself right now

EDIT: And then you edit your post talking pointless sh*t about project when im talking about t.throw.

jesus christ, get better.

Edited April 20, 2012 by KaKiMi

[Akfourtys]

did yall know that our damage is reduced by 5%^ while were in tanking stance?

crap BONUS damage is reduced by 5%. dont mislead people. and chain shocks crits for 4k+2k are not so rare to my non-full-bm-geared tankasin wearing stalker's dps set.

[Varicite]

crap BONUS damage is reduced by 5%. dont mislead people. and chain shocks crits for 4k+2k are not so rare to my non-full-bm-geared tankasin wearing stalker's dps set.

 

Once a minute, w/ Recklessness and the Energize proc. <.<

[allexj]

The damage I suggested was 2k which is the highest i've seen a shadow do on me, now you're saying you've never seen it go over 3k. Again it's a channeled skill that ticks 4 times.

So basically you're saying it's possible to do more than what i've seen, you insinuate that it's only do-able with dps gears and not tank gears. And you're saying some pointless stuff about if you were to use full adrenals + relics.

how about you go back to swtor, and grind your class until you're decent enough to talk, you're just arguing with yourself right now

EDIT: And then you edit your post talking pointless sh*t about project when im talking about t.throw.

jesus christ, get better.

 

sorry i didnt see the tk thro i do apologetic /bow

[Kahldor]

Among the current FotMs, Tank Assassins (and their mirrors) are undoubtedly the grossest imbalance.

 

Yet unlike Marauders with their insane damage or Powertechs with their crazy burst, Tank Assassins actually break the game to an extent.

 

Why may you ask is a tank Assassin game-breaking?

 

1. They beat any class in a 1v1, most of the time it's not even close.

 

2. That means you have to commit at least 2 players towards taking a node guarded by a tank Assassin. But even with 2 players the Assassin will survive long enough for reinforcements to arrive before a cap. 3 Players are enough to ensure a rapid kill, if the Assassin doesn't opt to vanish in order to prolong the fight.

 

3. They also have Stealth, meaning more often than not, there'll be an extra Assassin hiding in the shadows which would also need to be killed.

 

There''s just no feasible counter to that class aside from committing half your team towards finishing them off. If the enemy team has multiple tank Assassins....well good luck with anything.

 

4. They make the best ball carriers against good players (bad players get charged by Juggers), able to speed through fire while taking negligible damage, their Stealth allows them to wait anywhere and their survivability ensures that by the time they get near the enemy goal-line, their resolve bar will be full, making them immune to any CC.

 

5. Should for some reason a group of Assassins tanks ever find itself on the defensive, no problem. Just pull that pesky ball carrier into the nearest fire and lol as you grab the ball for a quick counter.

 

6. Mentioning Guard and all the other crap they have just seems unnecessary at this point.

 

While (most) other classes have to make choices, Tank Assassins have it all.

 

/rant

 

Not game breaking... Their Damage is crap. Their healing can be outdamaged by two people. Yes they are hard to kill. But, so is a PT or SW. It is no difficult than needing two people to bring down a good healing Op. Your post sounds more like whining because you can't instagib this class.

[shirayuki]

shes talking about shadow version of shock not FL my FL with relic and recklessness only ticks for about 1.3k on someone in full recruit and i'm full bm gear

[kickinhead]

The only thing I'm comparing is the damage of tanks vs the damage of dps specs, regardless of class. I don't think there's an imbalance at all, since tanks are doing literally half the damage of dps specs. People in these nerf threads all pull out these exaggerations about how Assassin tanks are 'doing the damage of a dps class' when that clearly isn't the case.

 

All damage isn't the same, that's one of the points I myself have made before in threads like this. When people post those screenshots of some tank Assassin putting up big total numbers, most of that comes from splash damage from Wither. A full tank spec Assassin has some of the lowest burst in the game.

 

What I find interesting is you advocate for a nerf on Wither and Harnessed Shadows (with no reason as to why), then post that your superior spec uses neither talent. What you posted was an Infiltration spec that sacrifices the top end talents to be able to run Combat Technique and to pick up some mid range Kinetic talents. The only thing it accomplishes as far as I can see is you're picking up a slightly faster mez (15 second Low Slash vs 20 second Spinning Kick - thanks to that nice Survivor 2pc bonus), a slightly faster Mind Snap and a cheaper Project, which is where all your damage has to come from since you don't have the shadow technique Breach. For that you're giving up the pull, AoE snare and self healing. If it works for you, more power to you but how does that spec justify a nerf to actual Tank Assassins?

 

Yes, there are DPS-Chars that deal significantly more DMG than the Shadow and even deal mostly single-target burst DMG, but as I've stated in my post before: The Shadow deals less DMG, but it's DMG is the best kind, so you can't directly compare it to every DD there is. For example Sages that deal more Dot and AoE-DMG, which can easily be healed compared to burst-DMG. But mostly, the Fulltank-Shadow is fine in terms of DMG. The reason why I propose a nerf to harnessed shadows and slow time is als because you get the stacks for harnessed shadows and therefore your selfheal very quickly, which makes the FullTank Shadow very effective in certain situations.

 

My spec uses neither of the talents, because my spec isn't designed to do well in 1v1 Situations and only works well with a good team, whereas the Shadow is pretty effective in 1v1 situations or in a simple PuG-Zergfest. But if you compare Low Slash to the kick out of stealth, you totally underestimate Low Slash. A 4 Second stun on a healer that isn't attacked by stupid teammates will help get you a kill in so many situations, 5 second lower cooldown and 2 second longer stun is 4/15, so roughly 30% of the time where you can deny heal or DPS, whereas with Kick, you only get 10%, thats a pretty big difference in my book. You also get lower CD's on your best Mana-management (blackout out of Stealth) and on other CD's, you get better slows, so you can both slow a kiting caster and also support your team by constantly slowing a Melee-Char of the opposing team. Of course you sacrifice a lot of nice skills on the tank-tree, but it's definitely worth it for Low Slash and all the other utilities. It's basically designed to be the most annoying utility-bomber you can think of in a BG that is also able to guard/taunt and be pretty self-sustained with removing slows etc and having a high survivability.

Edited April 20, 2012 by kickinhead

[cycao]

Why do Assassin/Shadows have their Project/Shock & Telekinetic Throw/Force Lightning fixed at 10m in comparison to the Sage who gets it buffed to 30m once they get their advanced class. And then they just completely throw the class mechanics away and give them a 30m stun.

I never understood that.

 

Tank Assassins:

The only Tank class that can remove snares by themself

Can commit only ONE talent point to increasing their shield chance by 10% - Vanguards have to commit 5 talent points for christ sake, Juggernauts can only get 4%shields are useless in pvp

Have the highest internal/elemental defense without the help of third party buffs, from their own utility buff, which in comparison makes their buff the most tank viable.

Can completely remove all debuffs on them and make themself immune for 3 seconds, again the only buff which is truly viable for a tank in comparison.5 seconds when talented but it doesnt make you immune to all damage, just dont try and CC and switch to weapon damage

Has the most cooldowns

Has the most stuns2 stuns is the most?

Has the most aoe'smost aoes? what, we have whither and thats it

Has the fastest energy regeneration mechanic (being force power, it doesn't slow down or alter in anyway like Juggernaut/Guardians whilst in Soresu Form's rage gain, it doesn't lower your recovery rate the more consumed/exhausted your energy is like Vanguard/Powertech ammo system/Heat system)

Can remove ALL snares, the ONLY type of cc as it were that doesn't add resolve, and the skill that does this effect (Force Speed), it's cooldown is also reduced when you spec this tree.

Has a talent point that at it's peak can inflict 75% extra damage with Force Lightning/Telekinetic Throw - That's the 2nd HIGHEST talent based passive damage increase that exists in the game, and it only requires 3 talent points, not 5.actually only 1 point is needed for HD but 2 makes it 100% chance

If you actually take a look, every other talent in the game that increases damage whether due to skill activation, proccs or trigger rates, NONE exceed 50% except this one... in a tank spec. I've seen people hit 8k with this skill on full bm... if this is normal then why are people ************ about ravage? Never hit for 8k myself but Its 4-5k is about where im at

 

I cant tell if you are talking a 31/31/10 build or not.

Edited April 20, 2012 by cycao

[ufasach]

I'm a shadow,

I use the infiltration spec, but have dabbled in the tank spec as well. I would like to clear up some of your griefs.

 

1. We do not beat every class 1v1. There are good and bad players, good shadow/sin vs. a player and sure shadows/sins will win. But good vs. good it's all about who were going up against. Personally, I can kill jug/maras, but always get killed by operatives/scoundrels. Versus bounty hunters and troopers it's usually fifty fifty.

 

Generally, if the other class has a healing ability the shadow/sin will loose. As they will just out heal our damage output untill we run out of energy.

 

2. Your kinda stupid if you don't commit at least two people to stealth and attack the other door in void star. Usually you need three with one running blocker and two beating up the guards. And always expect stealth classes. Not just sins/shadows. But operatives/ scoundrels as well.

 

3. Always expect stealth classes. Countering them is all about tactics. After our openers our dps abilities are negligible. Sins/shadows are not the only stealth class. If you spec I to it jugs/maras and the rep counter parts also have some stealth ability.

 

4. Each class has their own strength in huttball. Or all the matches for that matter. Your reaction to sins being overpowered though is just QQ. I can't carry the ball for ****. Unless I have a personal guard, a pocket healer and sage/sorc. Bubble to protect me from the fire. Can't run through fire by yourself if your a sin/shadow.

 

5. We don't have pull. Those are sorcs or sages. Or power tecs or vanguards.

 

6. We only have guard if we have a combat ability active. And generally only tank shadows use it. A lot of class have guard. Just don't hit the guarded player. It's basic tactics.

 

 

As for our dps output. I am speced 8-31-0. For pure dps. I have full BM and 16k health. I'm probably the squishiest player in any Warzone match. Usually only get 150-190k damage. That's it. Good matches when I have a guildie healing me I can get upwards of 250k. Only ever got over 300k once. And that was because I have being guarded and pocket healed the whole match.

 

Sins/shadows are not omnipotent. We are actually very squishy. We are a harasser class, that's about it.

 

Absolutely on the money with this reply . In general any player we kill easily is due to gear difference or skill difference. I have a hybrid tank spec and I wear a full set of augmented warhero orange with the BM inserts with genuine warhero bracers and belt and I use a hyper fortitude stim as i am a synthweaver. This all gives me good survivability but I dont hit very hard. Its a comparative advantage thing. Evrbody think anybody that kills them is overpowered but really its about playing to your strengths. i couldnt care less about my damage stats as my job isnt to do damage. In hutball i am the ball runner or i help hold central. in void star i plant or i defend. In Alderan i defend. My best game was the one where i gave over 140k protection to a healer. That was to my mindset my best performance. kills and damage are irrelevant.

 

I dont get why or how players can call for our class to be nerfed because in each update we have been slowly mini-nerfed to the point that a damage spec assassin dies in a heartbeat in a pvp warzone so to be of any use a tank or hybrid spec is the only valid option. We dont do any great dps and unlike other stealth classes like ops or scoundrels we cant stun you and hurt u badly at the same time. If u take away our survivability u take away our only usefulness Id give up the stealth b4 my survivability

[Occultsaga]

in hutball they kick asses

[cycao]

in hutball they kick asses

 

Ball carriers they are strong but I rather have a jugg carrying the ball as you will probably be getting knocked off at some point into the pit and with a jugg there is always some "bad" sitting on the edge that they can leap to. It actually is mind bottling when this happens. If I have all my CD's though ie force shroud and sprint and I have made it the last fire yes...I am going to score.

[HyperThomas]

Yes, they are OP, but Marauders are just as bad. Both need nerfing... no doubt about it.

[Mathelia]

Ive got a sith assassin alt and i have to say.. this is completely true. I get more dps than a dps specced player. Its grossly OP

 

suuure you do. if you had you would know they arn't op on the damage compared to other classes....

[Mathelia]

Not game breaking... Their Damage is crap. Their healing can be outdamaged by two people. Yes they are hard to kill. But, so is a PT or SW. It is no difficult than needing two people to bring down a good healing Op. Your post sounds more like whining because you can't instagib this class.

 

I give you 1 + . i think this also

[LordbishopX]

/facepalm

 

Threads read I couldn't instant kill a tanksin please nerf them. In reality the higher the dps a tanksin has the lower survival they have and still its gimped in comparison to real dps classes do not compare total damage from being alive to dps its not the same.......

 

Run any real parser and you will never see Tanksin on top period end of the myth we live longer period in battle grounds with a pocket healer...

Edited April 20, 2012 by LordbishopX

[mystbladex]

That is just the thing, there are a number of already "Good" shadows and then there are the "NEW" shadows who are at least decent without even trying.

 

Civil war or void star, I hate fighting them.

 

But when I do and actually kill one of the better shadows, I am like, YES, but it took a long time to kill him and ohh there he is again full HP, it is a never ending cycle.

 

I do however like capping a point in Nova when they are on the point in stealth and I just stand there and range cap it as they wait for me to come closer to come out and hit me, and then I run off after I cap the point and they do not even realized what happened. As they are now defending a point for the other team. lol. Noobs will be noobs

[LordbishopX]

The number of bad out number the number of good by a wide margin same with mara/sent peeps get on a class because its the favor of the month nothing more nothing less just because some video jockey edited together some footage of them stomping bad players....

 

As for unkillable in full bm gear with expertise out the butt got killed in under 6 seconds by an ops and a deception sin one of those what the heck moments but caught stunned and it was over in a blink.....

Edited April 20, 2012 by LordbishopX

[Occultsaga]

i dont know the class, but the biggest issue when fighting one assasin/shadow tank is the big immunity to to cc they have. its really frustating, you leap them, they dont root, after that you force stun and it works, try to force push after force stun - it dont work, they use the sprint skill and WOAAH ROOTWORM SCORED!

[LordbishopX]

i dont know the class, but the biggest issue when fighting one assasin/shadow tank is the big immunity to to cc they have. its really frustating, you leap them, they dont root, after that you force stun and it works, try to force push after force stun - it dont work, they use the sprint skill and WOAAH ROOTWORM SCORED!

 

 

Thats our favorite move but mostly we get knocked off pushed and charged around like a ping pond ball when its on cd and it only lasts 3-5 secs >.> every 60 secs or 45 if talented.....

Edited April 20, 2012 by LordbishopX

[Astakhan]

As a Sage, against a good dps geared tank Shadow / Assassin, you literally have no chance.

 

Everything you can do, they have a counter to.

 

You're only option is to keep them at range. Good luck keeping a class that has force pull and force speed and an AE snare and numerous stuns at range.

 

And even if you do play a perfect game against a good Tankassin (in dps gear, people are losing track of this little caveat), you're able to time everything perfect, keep him at ranged, you have the upper hand, you may get him...

...he vanishes. lawl.

 

People saying they don't do good dps are just blowing smoke or they're in tank gear. DPS gear with the exception of a shield = game over for any other class (not sure about the new Marauders / Sents though).

 

What needs to happen is this, Combat stance needs to cut an Assassins / Shadows DPS by a quarter to maybe a half and up the threat the stance generates. Fixes them in pvp (brings them in line with the other tanks DPS figures) but allows them to still generate the same threat in PVE.

 

Regardless, something needs to be done about them.

[Astakhan]

Thats our favorite move but mostly we get knocked off pushed and charged around like a ping pond ball when its on cd and it only lasts 3-5 secs >.> every 60 secs or 45 if talented.....

 

Yeah, every 45 seconds isn't overpowered. That's just every time you touch the ball or engage whatever easy kill class (IE Sorc / Sage) after you destroy them and they respawn.

 

The people defending (specfically) DPS geared tankassins in PVP are diluting themselves or just don't want to give up the king-of-the-hill spot.

[RefugeASSASSIN]

Me (Pyro) 560k damage Tanksin 650k damage (Voidstar 1 hour ago). If this is not OP thaen what is? Im a DPS and that is a tank with better survivability and lots of defensive cooldowns and the ability to guard. I will only mention that the tanksin would have broken 700k damage, but he was allways taunted by me (74k protection only by using taunts).

I'm not saing nerf but I am saing change a bit the way they work.

 

Screenshot or it didnt happen.

 

Ive never seen ANY Tankasin break 450k let alone 650-700k. Myself I think the best ive ever scored was around 340 and with 16 medals.

 

The only way this could be remotely possible is if the Tankasin kept tryin to burn down a good healer 1vs1 the whole game since we cant kill a healer even if we wanted to. He keeps hitting the healer, gets him down 3/4's then the healer heals back up to full beacuse the Tankasin has no more cooldowns or force to do anything else with, rinse repeat.

 

You people need to realize that warzones are 8vs8 for a reason. Its not a deathmatch so quit trying to 1v1 everyone. In a 2v1 fight, even if I kill one of the 2, the second will usually finish me off. How is that OP again?