Feedback request from James Ohlen - Group Finder

[Aurojiin]

I like the group finder idea but there needs to be some limits.

3. If same server queueing it should NOT teleport you to the given heroic, Flashpoint, or Ops..

What is the point of this? How does me having to spend 10-15 minutes travelling from Oasis on Belsavis back to the fleet help anyone in any way?

[Darthlemi]

Spamming the fleet for people to do HMs with isn't "community."

[chaosdefined]

Read the post again, I said nothing about cross-server. I think that Cross-server is needed but only for PVP, and preferable either only for Ranked PVP, or with much firmer level brackets in place. However for a group content activity such as running a Black TalonEsseles Flashpoint, then there is no need to use a group finder, you just need to either A. send chat messages on fleet, or if that is low pop, try moving to DK/Coruscant and doing the same.

 

I can see you have a strong understanding of people saying they do that and it doesn't work.

[caronome]

While all are important, I would prioritize them as

 

Top Heroic then FP then Storymode Op then ops.

 

OPs could be story mode only. I.e. If you really want to measure your epeen in a real op then, lfr is not nearly as useful. But there is always the case that Pat's anniversary is today or Chris' internet died and you need a healer. "7/8 guild run need vent"

 

But story mode ops really need to have a LFR. After all, it is people that are not dedicated to the end game raiding grind who need a convenient way to get a pick up group, not the people doing nightmare mode.

 

AND OF COURSE IT NEEDS TO BE CROSS-SERVER!!!!!!!!!!! It never occurred to me that it would not be. After reading the high % of people who do their WZ PVP daily, I started leveling some alts with PvP. Over two thirds of the pugs I am in, not a single word is spoken. Not hi or hello or calling out positions. It is slightly less social than pugging WoW, which is saying something. Don't let ego or theory get in the way of making the right business decision for Bioware and its customers.

[Katahn]

One problem with forming a group out of guild for a Hard Mode is that the 50s are strewn all over the galaxy and there is no chat channel for us to reach everyone, so a group finder would allow us to get a group consisting of players from all over. Depending on the features it may also allow us to go into the flashpoint from, say Corellia while we're doing dailies, and then when we're done return to that same spot.

 

Players can create their own chat channels and if you promote/advertise them you can get a community-created LFG channel that is server wide. All you need to do is "/cjoin lfg" and then periodically in /general chat on the fleet and on various worlds say something like "A player-created server-wide LFG channel exists. Everyone is welcome to join and spread the word. Type /cjoin lfg"

 

My server uses it to great effect.

 

1. Teleport to the FP is never necessary. There are shuttles directly to the fleet on every world and all you need to do is use Quick Travel to get to it and take it. Worst case scenario you can burn a EFP to get there. For Security Key holders the vendor sells one-use passes for 1kcr.

 

2. If cross-server is going to be implemented it would require cross-server friends and all that goes with it (communication, group formation, etc.). At this point you will also need to introduce some kind of paid server transfer service so when people do make cross-server friends and want to join their guild they can do so. Oh, and said service will need to not cause anyone to lose their Legacy levels and unlocks. Alternatively you could always introduce cross-server guilds I suppose.

 

Otherwise... how am I supposed to make friends and find a nice guild to join or new recruits for the guild I'm already in when statistically speaking I am always far more likely to group with people NOT from my server? If I'm not making friends or finding a place in any kind of community... what's to keep me playing after I've done the class stories?

 

3. I would love this tool to be accompanied by an official Bioware server-wide LFG channel to facilitate group formation without the tool for more specialized tasks like hardmodes or operations (which are NOT pug friendly).

 

4. I want to find heroics and flashpoints foremost - but warzone premades and the like would be nice too.

[Kindara]

An interface / group finder that works across the server for flashpoints, hm's and pug spots on an operation would be phenomal. I highly oppose random / auto grouping though. I'd just like a way to see who's looking or put up an ad for a spot we're trying to fill regardless of location. That way atleast everyone could go about their business until everyone's ready to gather.

[Verdan]

What community?!

 

I agree with your various posts on the subject, despite what some idealists or self-serving guild leaders are saying, playing defense to grasp their own communities in serving the One and 1% (guild leaders) rather than the 99% (players).

 

Being guild-less due to a lack over 20 years of trying to find a community-oriented guild and leadership who knew anything about serving a guild community rather than some autocratic "my way or the highway" approach for kiddies, AND being on a server with a population that sees 8 to 10 players per planet such that we can't even get enough players to do a Heroic, the ideals are absurd.

 

I'd love to find a mature guild - beyond the common (weak) charter consisting of little other than "based on respect" (until you dare take a different position from leaders and want a real dialogue) and "no drama" (which means you can't ever take a different position on something that's "already been decided" by a few without real guild-wide dialogue... ie. communication), so a good guild for thinking adults is really a pipe dream.

 

So, all that said, group features should allow for immediate access and immediate start - meaning that no matter where you're standing on which planet, you can open a window, see groups forming, join a group for that content, and be immediately ported or summoned to a launch location... no travel required. In Lotro, which did this exceptionally well, it not only ported you at the site to start the content, but when exiting the content, it put you right back in the outskirts of some field you were originally standing in before you joined the group, ready to carry on wherever you left your last activity. MMO perfection.

 

And of course, given all the above, it should allow for cross server if technically possible, for maximum player opportunity and enjoyment.

 

- - - -

PS - I find this thread a disturbing example of project leadership, having a very narrow set of Poll options that don't allow for other important features, such as group finder's immediate access, port/summon, and return.

 

More importantly, by not offering their vision of this "group finder" system that fits TOR design tenets and player comments offered over many months, and THEN appropriately ask for our feedback on their design draft... It feels reminiscent of SWG project management that bounced design around without focused leadership and vision, which resulted in chaos and endless changes in reactionary responses to player outcries with one visionless change after another.

 

Team Bioware, you've gotten months of input by players... So put something tangible on the table for feedback other than some narrow poll that is I'll-suited for the storming stage it appears to be framed in.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Verdan

[mwohrlin]

Keep it same server no X server LFG please.

 

No! I disagree. Cross server is the way to.

[Kozzmozz]

any groupfinder that lets you automatically travel to the leader of the group, wherever he is.

[Staavis_SC]

First and foremost, Flashpoints.

 

Second to that, I would say cross server LFG.

 

Single server LFG is all fine and dandy if you are on a well populated server. But if your server is a ghost town, what good does an LFG do, if no one is actually looking for a group?

 

At least for Flashpoints, I would say cross server is a must. Either that, or server merges BEFORE the LFG tool comes out.

[TheOnlyKyrenS]

One where you can choose cross server or same server so I don't have to put up with *****s.

[Destronicus]

All of the above and cross server.

[Saerith]

All of the above and cross server, but I personally won't use a group finder for operations since 1) I'm in a raiding guild and 2) I wouldn't trust a pug with an operation anyway. With that said, that doesn't mean I want to remove that functionality for other players to use. If they want to pug an operation, good for them! I have no desire to prevent them from doing so. But yes, I imagine most players will use it for flashpoints, heroic missions, and maybe just "hey, anybody want to group up and complete some quests on Tatooine?"

[Raiders]

Flashpoint mainly for me but all would be great to be honest.

 

Something as much important will be to ensure that it will be an cross server feature. .otherwise it might be useless...

If I can add : implement this feature as fast as you can (as long as it's working )

 

I'm sure plenty of people are now bored of posting LFG or LFM for any FP below 50 normal mode and never have any reply. I personally gave up LFG on planer or fleet..the result is more or less identical..

[Verdan]

One where you can choose cross server or same server so I don't have to put up with *****s.

 

"It is what it is. Don't like it, move along." *****s.

 

Oh wait, that's your signature, not mine. So, you'll like whatever you get, and smile while you're at it.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Verdan

[CamAntilles]

Flashpoints are likely the most important, but I would put heroics as secondary. Operations and the like are usually done by guilds, so it seems like it is a lot less useful for them.

[Frozenshiva]

I agree with your various posts on the subject, despite what some idealists or self-serving guild leaders are saying, playing defense to grasp their own communities in serving the One and 1% (guild leaders) rather than the 99% (players).

 

Being guild-less due to a lack over 20 years of trying to find a community-oriented guild and leadership who knew anything about serving a guild community rather than some autocratic "my way or the highway" approach for kiddies, AND being on a server with a population that sees 8 to 10 players per planet such that we can't even get enough players to do a Heroic, the ideals are absurd.

 

I'd love to find a mature guild - beyond the common (weak) charter consisting of little other than "based on respect" (until you dare take a different position from leaders and want a real dialogue) and "no drama" (which means you can't ever take a different position on something that's "already been decided" by a few without real guild-wide dialogue... ie. communication), so a good guild for thinking adults is really a pipe dream.

 

So, all that said, group features should allow for immediate access and immediate start - meaning that no matter where you're standing on which planet, you can open a window, see groups forming, join a group for that content, and be immediately ported or summoned to a launch location... no travel required. In Lotro, which did this exceptionally well, it not only ported you at the site to start the content, but when exiting the content, it put you right back in the outskirts of some field you were originally standing in before you joined the group, ready to carry on wherever you left your last activity. MMO perfection.

 

And of course, given all the above, it should allow for cross server if technically possible, for maximum player opportunity and enjoyment.

 

PS - I find this thread a disturbing example of project leadership, having a very narrow set of Poll options that don't allow for other important features, such as group finder's immediate access, port/summon, and return. More importantly, in not offering their vision of this "group finder" system that fits TOR design tenets and player comments offered over many months, but then appropriately asks for our feedback on their design draft. Seems reminiscent of SWG project management that bounced design around without focused leadership and vision, which resulted in chaos and endless changes in reactionary responses to player outcries with each visionless change after another. You've gotten months of input by players... So put something tangible on the table for feedback other than some narrow poll that is I'll-suited for the storming stage it appears to be framed in.

 

First off, assumption on people's backgrounds is not a strong starting point for your argument.

 

Your complaint about poorly organized guilds, while founded, does not help the community either.You could have started your own guild but instead chose to be passive on the issue instead of trying to help it. You say you've been searching for a proper community oriented guild for over 20 years? Well honestly, that's one of the fattest lies i've heard yet. Most guilds in older mmo's had great guilds with a strong sense of unity and fairness.

The mmo community has only grown worse in the last 5-6 years. (again for most MMOs)

I'm not saying there weren't many bad guilds back then, but if you weren't able to find a guild to your liking in those times, then your expectations from people are too high, and am very much inclined to mash you in with the 1% you've just been talking about.

 

Your next paragraph pretty much confirms what i said earlier. You have high expectations of people but are not inclined to do anything about it beyond pointing the finger.

 

I already said i agree with a LFG tool being implemented, no need to explain it all over again.

 

The cross-server functionality however is a bad design decision. There's several points for that which have been brought up before as such there's no need to mention everything all over again.

I could write a bloody essay several pages long on why that is bad, and that is not limited to the design itself but the players as well.

 

Your P.S is what actually caught my attention and is the main reason i wanted to answer to your post.

 

I'm not going to list a whole resume on my past and current jobs, suffice to say I've worked with people, more importantly customers, for a good 10 years now, both in the gaming industry as well as other departments, and one thing i can say for sure, is that most often than not, the customer is an idiot.

I say idiot but that doesn't really fit the bill right.

 

What any company with a shred of brain does is take ideas/input/feedback for their product and mold that product into something fitting for the customer in general without changing the product itself.

Customers will almost always try to get more out of a deal than they originally bargained for, and will result to petty threats and imaginary arguments to prove their point without any bit of insight on the matter.

 

This sadly holds true for most complainers on the forums here as well. They have no clue on the matter, they believe they know things without properly researching them, often throwing half-assed arguments and proof around with no actual value.

Generally as a company, you want to listen to the feedback and weigh it in, if its valuable, without compromising it. In this case, when the developers offer a solution to a problem, people ask for more, generally things that fit their individual needs, regardless of the outcome and consequences.

 

The cross server tool is, in most cases, a bad thing to do. The actual uses for cross server tools are limited and should stay limited.

When companies start listening to their customers too much is when things turn uglier and uglier.

 

This brings me back to my initial post about customers being stupid.

They are, and if you give them something, they want more. If you give them what they want, they start abusing it and eventually complain again for something else.

In the case of the cross-server LFG, as mentioned before, it means a complete destruction of any possibility at a server community.

One of the reasons you can't find a fitting guild is because people lack a connection. When a server is "isolated" it creates order, it's an illusion for the most part,it's forced, but it's there.

People have to behave and adhere by the rules created by each server. This forces the community of each server to keep its population in check.

With a LFG tool, people become even more anonymous. They do not have to behave and their actions go unpunished. Which in turn forces people that would normally, of their own free will, behave, or contribute to the community resort to petty behavior as well in order to keep an even playing field. It's a vicious cycle that start with that single flip of a switch.

 

Don't get me wrong, it's still going to happen,even without this tool, but it's going to happen far less.

Each server is like a town/city. If there's a thief in your city, and that thief is also a resident, chances are he's going to be recognized and caught relatively fast, as well as suffer the consequences of his actions. It is also less likely to happen due to the high risk.

If that thief happens to be from a completely different country, and he's just passing by your city for a short while, there's a higher chance for a theft to occur, and a higher chance for him to go uncaught and unpunished. (taking into account how the system in the MMO works)

 

On the other hand, it offers the possibility of meeting new people from different servers. Sure that's a good thing, and sometimes, or even often, it works out well.

But then you stumble over the situation where you might meet someone you get along with, but after that one night out, you won't see him ever again.

 

There are obviously many other scenarios, but in the bigger picture of things, I've not yet been able to find enough arguments(or be given enough) to tilt the scale in favor of cross-server instead of server only.

 

Bottom line is that, most often people will ask for things that are fun for them, individually, but not for the people around them, and cross server functionality is that kind of function. It brings chaos in an environment where already there is little order or unity, with many people that are constantly trying to disrupt that order. People have to understand that "fun" doesn't always translate to "right". This is where the difference between people that are ignorant and people that are aware is shown.

 

In an mmo, you want to create things that are fun and fair for everyone, not just certain individuals. More so when this tool is put in place to facilitate grouping easier.

I am perfectly aware that the world is not pink and fluffy, and it probably will never be, but that won't stop me from trying, in whatever way i can and is within my capabilities,instead of dismissing it and jumping on the bandwagon to Self-centeredsville.

[Woetoo]

Spamming the fleet for people to do HMs with isn't "community."

Nope.

 

But chatting with 2 people while you search for a 4th is.

[Verdan]

First off, as of unity and fairness.

 

What a crazy long post the likes of which I have never seen. It quotes my post, seems to say that my post was directed to him when it wasn't, makes crazy assumptions in the wrong direction about what he thinks I was saying and wasn't, and other times responds to things said that was never said. Crazy nuts.

 

I can't begin to respond to that spiraling group of unrelated assumptions and opinions. I stand by my post, fully. And the primary issue failing guild communitijes at large (that promote the desire for cross-server group finder) is failed guild leadership.

[TempestasSilva]

Flashpoints are essential.

Heroic Missions would be nice.

Operations give me mixed feelings.

[Tmanarl]

Should cover all options, however Flashpoints take priority.

[MandraMoody]

From the choices, All of the above. I would love to be able to sit in a queue in order to finish X heroic on Coruscant, for example.

 

Not listed in the choices: Cross server. It's a pain trying to find a group at a server's offpeak time period. Even the Warzone group finder has trouble during off peak. In my opinion, Crossserver is the MOST important feature for a group finder so that we can find a group for Flashpoints using players from the entire community.

 

Voted all of the above and totally agree with this quote, ALOT of people want this option and that's the most important fact....it's an option. Those who don't want it or have no need of it can simply choose not to use it.

[Saltybill]

I would say all of the above, but categorized... probably have 3 tabs, one for each sort of thing. ops, flash, and heroics.

 

for ops and flash, it would be straight forward... standard "wowish" finder with either your choice for something specific, choosing a few in a list, or random. I would also break down the heroics group questing by planet and only have the lists expanded for planets in your level range.

 

if you REALLY want to get fancy, you can do rated pve, where it would track your progress (something like, how many fp/ops you've done and maybe even the time to complete)... this could be used to match you with like scored players so you don't have so much a random jumble, rather a lean mean fighting machine. I'd hate to see the finder using stuff like gear score, but that's also an option, though a very weak one.

 

anyways, that's what I got for now.

 

OH!!! and make sure you keep pvp and pve queuing INDEPENDENT of eachother!!!! that way you can be in a queue for an ops while still getting your pvps done. this bugged the heck out of me in wows.

[Sparklehorse]

Crap, didn't realize no preference was also all of the above.

 

I actually meant to select all of the above.

[Ramahospitality]

First off, assumption on people's backgrounds is not a strong starting point for your argument.

 

Sorry, not quoting that whole post .

 

You have just summed up every argument made by all those that are pro community and anti-x-server and I thank you. It was well put adn couldn't have been done better.

 

I applaud you sir (or M'am).