What happened to real Gamers?

[Captain_Zone]

Your first mistake was to put WoW and "real gamers" together in the same sentence. Seriously WoW was what kicked off the carebear generation of MMO gamers that feel like they should be able to go through the entire game without having to group up and work as a team in anything.

 

All MMO games prior to WoW almost required you to group up, be social and learn teamwork to tackle anything past lvl 10 worth doing. Then along came WoW and the carebear kiddies that were bad at teamwork cried, and WoW listened and made it so you could solo to max level if you sucked too bad to get a group. Problem was, these perpetual petulent kids outnumbered those gamers that actually tried to be better, so WoW became popular and became the business model for all future MMO's.

 

I believe there is some confusion here as to the term "Carebear" and where it originated. Carebears aren't anti-grouping. Carebears are anti-PvP. They CARE so much about other players that they QQ all over the place when PvP happens. So unless the term has changed since EVE Beta, that's what a "Carebear" is in the Online community.

[sbutehorn]

If you really look back at the history of MMO's the changes began as PvP was introduced into MMO's. The first successful MMO (EQ) had no real PvP even though you had good and evil races. This created the long quest for rewards structure. In fact each class had long quests to get their epic weapons which at that point in the game were significant to every class.

 

When WoW was introduced (Vanilla) it had PvP but just out in the world. This made WoW fresh and new at the time. I remember questing in Redrock on my hunter as I am trying to level and along comes a Shaman and wipes out every Alliance there. This created competition. Well as the competition grows more fierce so do the calls for class balance.

 

Class balance becomes the next issue of making a game more simplified. The easiest way to balance classes is give them all the same abilitites (homogenization). This became the reason I left WoW. Each class should bring something unique and important to the table. Balance is only important for PvP. The gamers who play for PvE have realized their classes continue to be destroyed to please the PvP crowd.

 

Ideally what you need is for SWTOR to remove PvP from the planets and put it in space. You can easily balance the abilities of the ships and even add anything new to them you want . This leaves the players to be able to play and nerfs and buffs to happen based on the design of the game not the pvp.

[Crutchess]

whoops. Edited April 24, 2012 by Crutchess

[Captain_Zone]

If you really look back at the history of MMO's the changes began as PvP was introduced into MMO's. The first successful MMO (EQ) had no real PvP even though you had good and evil races. This created the long quest for rewards structure. In fact each class had long quests to get their epic weapons which at that point in the game were significant to every class.

 

When WoW was introduced (Vanilla) it had PvP but just out in the world. This made WoW fresh and new at the time. I remember questing in Redrock on my hunter as I am trying to level and along comes a Shaman and wipes out every Alliance there. This created competition. Well as the competition grows more fierce so do the calls for class balance.

 

Class balance becomes the next issue of making a game more simplified. The easiest way to balance classes is give them all the same abilitites (homogenization). This became the reason I left WoW. Each class should bring something unique and important to the table. Balance is only important for PvP. The gamers who play for PvE have realized their classes continue to be destroyed to please the PvP crowd.

 

Ideally what you need is for SWTOR to remove PvP from the planets and put it in space. You can easily balance the abilities of the ships and even add anything new to them you want . This leaves the players to be able to play and nerfs and buffs to happen based on the design of the game not the pvp.

 

Ok.... ummm... To clarify here. You obviously never played on any of the Zek servers where PvP happened constantly. EQ started PvP in the Open World, and on Rallos Zek, it was unrestricted. Please check your info before posting on that subject. Thanks.

 

Rallos Zek vet, here.

[Ian_Planeswalker]

I think Im part of the Old gen gamers wherein you need to grind one whole week for a level, and spend hours killing just one boss monster.

 

I guess the new gen gamers wanted ease of play without the grind that we are usually attuned to. I think that is also the reason why they always complain about nerfs, changes, etc.

 

With us Old gen gamers if there are some changes or a long maintenance we just wait it out and still stick to the game.

[RSLeMire]

I opened this thread fully expecting another QQ entitlement thread that I would debate even posting on and scan a page or two of flame wars for a chuckle... it is nice to be surprised. The good ole days are gone forever but I am still here and so are many of our kind. I think the trick is to create a guild with like minded players and grind forward as a crew. That is what we are doing and it feels very good. All in all I say BRAVO man, doubt anyone here will agree with you though... but dont take any guff from these swine.

[mav_andreyo]

Hello there good sir.

 

It was indeed a "long" read, but I didn't find a single word or sentence that didn't make sense

I can relate to just about everything.

I started playing wow just a couple of weeks after the release, and played a LOT until a few months after the Cata release. And you are correct, and this is one of the reasons I don't play WoW anymore. But I figured that I need to stop waiting for the moment where my experience while playing is on the same level as back then, all because of what you said. Sure, I can still enjoy a game but there is this sad fact : All the crying from people you are talking about actually affects the games future more or less, patches includes stuff to make "casual gamers" and crying kids get the gear they want by making things easy and so on. Like i said, this is mainly the reason WoW died for me, became to easy. It isn't a challenge anymore, you don't need to know your job and tactics in a raid, if you fail it doesnt matter, faceroll is all you need to know and so on and that isnt only Wow. I have yet to experience swTOR, I was a beta tester but bought the game today. So I hope it gives me some challenge, because thats what MMOS/RPG's is all about for me, work hard and get paid for it, if Sw:tor somewhat fails here the fact that its STAR WARS might actually prevent it from making any difference, but I would like developers Stop listening to the crying kids and stupid people that doesnt understand that they need to actually DO SOMETHING to get somewhere, I think this one of the reasons the "GAMERS" you are looking for is hard to find. I can speak for myself only but I call myself a hardcore gamer and I know its the reason I can't be found. lol!

I shall wait and see what SwTor got to offer but hey! its Star wars after all. It cant be anything less than epic in my mind *patching patching* Im sorry for being a hardcore typo champion and I hope I made myself clear *-*

 

Edit : I noticed many people doen't agree with WoW being a example here. But if you played Vanilla, you surely know what being a dedicated gamer is all about. And all the time you need to put in it. I agree there are better examples, but none that most people can relate to, anyways Wow isnt even the point here. Games gets simplified just like every damn thing that is human controled do, there is a reason generations gets dumber and fat. Spoiled, lazy, stupid and ungrateful kids, "they are the future" so we build things to satisfy their needs and laziness. evolution people. The human race is doomed i tell ya ;P

Edited April 25, 2012 by mav_andreyo

[Pheonixmoonfire]

I believe there is some confusion here as to the term "Carebear" and where it originated. Carebears aren't anti-grouping. Carebears are anti-PvP. They CARE so much about other players that they QQ all over the place when PvP happens. So unless the term has changed since EVE Beta, that's what a "Carebear" is in the Online community.

 

 

Correct, but wrong reference. Carebears stem back from the days of UO when the servers were split for PVP and PVE play. Old schoolers who were used to PvPing while questing started calling the PVEers "carebears" as a derogatory name. They would wait for Trammel side player in Felucca, and gank them as they appeared. The misnomer that people in Trammel didn't PvP was just that. You could flag yourself in Trammel for PvP, but it had to be done by the individual, whereas Felluca was a always on PvP flag. The only reason I can see, and could see at the time, for these people to complain is they could no longer gank unaware players. Travel from Felluca and Trammel was instantaneous, and a player traveling back to Trammel from Felluca would stay flagged for a brief period.

 

To the OP, the real gamers grew up. We no longer want to spend hours guarding an area, we want to get on, play for a while and log off so that we can spend time with our families. Or cook dinner. Or help our kids with their homework. Or have sex.

Sometime even with another person!

[AethiusSake]

Like a previous poster said, people changed and that changed the MMO landscape. This is my first MMO that I've reached max level, and I guess you could count me inbetween the old and new generation of gaming. I'm currently 24.

 

I joined WoW to play with my friends, who have all max leveled their WoW toons and alts. They eventually got bored (with the grinding, I think) and switched to WCIII games and Vindictus. I joined them and had a lot of fun - starting fresh is great, and I love reading about the strengths and weaknesses of classes and planning them out. I mostly had fun because I played with my friends.

 

Then SWTOR came out. I had great fun leveling with friends and leveling solo, and even convinced my g/f to play with us (who swore she would never play an MMO) and she was hooked, but for different reasons. She, and other new gen gamers, care about graphics, story, and ease of use above all else. I think old gen gamers care about challenging gameplay and time:rewards above all else. I could be wrong, but that's how it seems to me (general observation).

 

Since there are more and more new gen gamers coming onto the scene, their priorities will overshadow old gen gamers' priorities. Cutting down on challenging gameplay allows everyone to enjoy content, and cutting down on time lets you get more bang for your buck, in addition to having more of a life outside of the MMO.

 

I agree that the general move towards easier gaming without as much emphasis on player skill has downsides, but it's not all bad. The more people that play with you, the more fun you'll have.

 

Of course once your group gets good enough, you'll want more challenge. I believe this is where Bioware needs to keep up with generating more and more difficult content, extending the challenge ladder (like they did for EC being harder than KP & EV).

 

 

But anyways, old gen gamers might not be dying out - it's just that new gen gamers are entering the field at an increasing rate. But that might not be such a bad thing. Their money will pay for more content, which should satisfy old gen gamers (especially since they're making the new content more challenging).

 

Couldnt have said it better myself, Im exactly in the same positive, a year younger, with friends who are waiting for GW2 and refuse to try out SWTOR lol.. and unlike this lucky basterd, my gf wont budge with trying MMOs ever lol..

 

Maybe some tips psi on how you did it

[psi_overtake]

... and unlike this lucky basterd, my gf wont budge with trying MMOs ever lol..

 

Maybe some tips psi on how you did it

 

I'll never tell ;P

 

She and I both dislike games where you feel like you don't make a difference. I'm not saying that SWTOR doesn't have that problem, but at least while leveling, your interactions with the NPCs and the environment around you feel more personal. Instead of being handed a new cape and a pat on the back at the end of the quest, the NPC will vocally describe the consequences of your actions, and what effect it has on the region. It's also nice to "choose your path" with the light/dark side options, and even throwing in some mature content. It makes the whole grind much easier because it's vastly more enjoyable.

 

SWTOR just had the things she was looking for in a game. If your girl's interested in gaming, find out what parts about it she enjoys the most, and point out the parts in SWTOR that match it. Let her watch and ask her for conversation choices she'd make, and she'll get sucked in like my girl did

[BucMan]

Ok.... ummm... To clarify here. You obviously never played on any of the Zek servers where PvP happened constantly. EQ started PvP in the Open World, and on Rallos Zek, it was unrestricted. Please check your info before posting on that subject. Thanks.

 

Rallos Zek vet, here.

 

 

He said PVP was possible, but not focused on, and class balances and changes were not made based on PVP much. Yes you had the Zek servers but that was 3 out of what, 15-20?? The rest of his post was spot on, but you try to make him out to be a moron because of a different "point of view"????

[Captain_Zone]

Correct, but wrong reference. Carebears stem back from the days of UO when the servers were split for PVP and PVE play. Old schoolers who were used to PvPing while questing started calling the PVEers "carebears" as a derogatory name. They would wait for Trammel side player in Felucca, and gank them as they appeared. The misnomer that people in Trammel didn't PvP was just that. You could flag yourself in Trammel for PvP, but it had to be done by the individual, whereas Felluca was a always on PvP flag. The only reason I can see, and could see at the time, for these people to complain is they could no longer gank unaware players. Travel from Felluca and Trammel was instantaneous, and a player traveling back to Trammel from Felluca would stay flagged for a brief period.

 

To the OP, the real gamers grew up. We no longer want to spend hours guarding an area, we want to get on, play for a while and log off so that we can spend time with our families. Or cook dinner. Or help our kids with their homework. Or have sex.

Sometime even with another person!

 

Never played UO here. Heard about it. Thought about picking it up. Stuck with EQ instead. First place I heard the term "Carebear" was in EVE Beta. lol

[Captain_Zone]

He said PVP was possible, but not focused on, and class balances and changes were not made based on PVP much. Yes you had the Zek servers but that was 3 out of what, 15-20?? The rest of his post was spot on, but you try to make him out to be a moron because of a different "point of view"????

 

Actually, I was answering the part on his post where he said EQ didn't have any real PvP. For those of us who braved the Zeks and had to sneak past the maxed out Paladins to get out of Neriak after initial quests were over, we got more than our share of PvP.

[Karkais]

Lies. You don't "play" EvE. You select a skill to train once every 3+ months.

 

Kind of like this. I stopped subbing to Eve last month, after been "playing" Eve since 2006. Few years in nullsec and I got bored at the predictability of it all. Eve doesnt have pvp, it has groups of players vs groups of players.

 

I started playing SWTOR instead, and so far I am happy.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Karkais

[ZRated]

Amen. Been on Eve since 2004, that's where the term hardcore gaming actually takes shape.

 

I love SWTOR though... Can't get enough of it. I really hope that Bioware will not nerf the instancing and keeps the difficulty high enough to keep on attracting gamers looking for a good challenge.

 

I have been on EVE since 2004 also.... Good game but overcrowded and very limited as far as PvE and PvP.... meaning.... You can carebear it PvE in Highsec....but you can't get far solo PvP.... I actually got extremely bored with EVE once corps started camping the wormholes.... When those first came out the game was on my favorite list for a long time...

 

CoH/CoV remains a nearly perfected MMO for it's genre... It's been around a long time and is packed with more to do...

 

As I said before.... My first online gaming started with Trade Wars.... no graphics...just text and telnet commands...and is still one of my favorites. Before that.... It was a book, skill sheets, and 10 sided die...

[Mirura]

..... Edited February 12, 2018 by Mirura

[Alcarinn]

In regards to the OP, WoW got a great reputation as an MMO; it was fun and addictive. Real gamers loved it. And then the casuals came around to see what all the fuss was about. And they got jealous. So Blizzard nerfed the entire game into the ground to appease the whining masses.

 

this is pure fact....

 

Vanilla WoW was a REAL gamers game...... now i see some guy posting he never saw imaginary gamer nice try dude.... its not meant that way but hope you enjoy your fun sentence thinking you're clever

 

However gaming is dying at increased pace ever since TBC was released(more when attunements got removed id say) and ever since CoD 2 ceased to be the most played FPS.....

 

The generation of gamers i ''admired'' those 90s gamers that are now closing on 40s are long gone majority of those who really dedicated to gaming back then still exists getting disappointed by each and every game released and soon only memory will remain.... when i started WoW(and tried EQ at friends house) I was only 17....

 

Man i loved those vanilla days, i admit Evergrind was a bit too much for my age back then but WoW was perfect and since i loved Warcraft 2/3 Frozen throne......

 

I still remember 3+ months grind from 1-60 as a healing druid...... using staff and moonfire spell killing mobs for WHOLE day not doing quests....... oh man ..... and i still remember those glorified players fighting Naxx thinking ''man 1 day ill be as good and powerful as them to enter this raid'' all those days of LBRS/UBRS runs... then ZulGurub wiping a whole realm uniting doing great Pugs to Onyxia and AQ20

 

Such fun times, such great players... wiping in Stratholme for 4 hours NOONE ragequitting...

 

everyone had so much patience back then......... noone mocked anyone(or barely) no ninja looting(well very rarely)

 

DKP haha oh the memories..................

 

The suddenly all those gamers vanished from my friends list .... i remember in the heydays of Vanilla i had a list of 40+ people online whenever i was online...... then suddenly in TBC i was lucky if 10 were still online especially at closing to WOTLK.

 

Those gamers will remain in my memory with all the fun we had over ventrillo/ts... so much teamwork... so much joy, so much laughs.... Never rude...

 

I guess the new generation does not understand........... despite me being more half/half only trying Evergrind i played more with those really good players that are now Fathers.... sadly many of them are failing in raising their children appropriately since they were/are probably better gamers than parents considering this new MMO generation

[Boancrush]

Id rather go back to DAoC or Ultima or Neverwinter nights again than to play this pos game or worse WoW...

[JasonParker]

Well I don't know if the OP will like to read it but in my opinion WoW and Blizzard are among the Games/Devs that are the reason for the observed "degradation" of gamers. WoW, more precisely the marketing campaign for it from day one are the reason why gaming sort of became a cool thing to do instead of being for nerds.

 

Through WoW and the advertising for it using celebreties (which was unprecedented at that time) Blizzard attracted a broader audience not only to MMOs but gaming in general. Which per se is not a bad thing. The problem is: people that aren't "nerdy" or "hardcore" see games more on a level of movies and thus prefer to be entertained over having to work for achievements. They want instant fun with flat learning curves and little effort to put into achieving things.

 

And as they seem to be the majority by now devs in a way need to aim for them if they want to repeat WoW's success.

 

What they miss is: WoW has the player base it has not necessarily because it is a better or even more innovative game than other MMOs. Fan's won't like it, but the reason WoW has that huge of a player base is that through the marketing a lot more people tried if they liked the game than any other MMO/Game before or after it and thus more people stuck to it and Blizzard has with one big add-on per year still the fastest working pipe for new content creation. These are the simple reasons for WoW's success. If you want to repeat it do just that.

 

But enough of the WoW bashing (I could start listing how every single thing in WoW was already there in UO, Everquest or Meridian and thus WoW didn't really reinvent the wheel and definetly is not the mother of all MMOs) and on to answering the thread titling question:

 

I count myself among real gamers and the answer for me is: I'm still there, still gaming filling the gaps between the true gems in the game business (last few truely amazing games: Neocron [MMO], FO:NV, Portal/2, Mirrors Edge, DX:HR, Skyrim) with stuff like trying WoW (and disliking it), playing SWTOR because it is SW and moaning in game related forums how EA systematically destroys sophisticated gaming . As someone who also has RPed (Pen and Paper I mean) in his teenager time I still wait for someone to pull off a true Sandbox MMO that gives me the freedom I need to truely play my role and live out my creativity by completely abandoning the concept of storylines and predetermined quests.

[Captain_Zone]

I have been on EVE since 2004 also.... Good game but overcrowded and very limited as far as PvE and PvP.... meaning.... You can carebear it PvE in Highsec....but you can't get far solo PvP.... I actually got extremely bored with EVE once corps started camping the wormholes.... When those first came out the game was on my favorite list for a long time...

 

CoH/CoV remains a nearly perfected MMO for it's genre... It's been around a long time and is packed with more to do...

 

As I said before.... My first online gaming started with Trade Wars.... no graphics...just text and telnet commands...and is still one of my favorites. Before that.... It was a book, skill sheets, and 10 sided die...

 

My first kill on my second EVE account was in a Wormhole.

[MMornard]

What happened to "real" gamers?

 

They hit puberty.

[Humanophage]

What happened to "real" gamers?

 

They hit puberty.

How inappropriate. That is akin to saying that anyone with a job has to prefer simple books or dumb films because they are too tired of thinking at work. Any lowering of standards is just that, partial intellectual degeneration. One should strive to have good taste in all endeavours, and feel ashamed of any failure to do so.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Humanophage

[Malles]

Oh, they're out playing real games.

 

I mean, no offense, but being good at an MMO does NOT make you a gamer. My 58-year old mother plays MMOs, and I just introduced her to Alt-F4 the other week. Everything worth doing in an MMO requires a group of people. Killed a champion 1v1? Good for you, seriously. But for real thrills, you should try out some of the more popular single-player games. I recommend strategy games or survival horror.

 

Emphasis on the last one. Lock yourself in your house with all the lights off and only some junk food and an attention-starved black cat for company. Best results come from Silent Hill or Resident Evil 0-4.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Malles

[MMornard]

How inappropriate. That is akin to saying that anyone with a job has to prefer simple books or dumb films because they are too tired of thinking at work. Any lowering of standards is just that, partial intellectual degeneration. One should strive to have good taste in all endeavours, and feel ashamed of any failure to do so.

 

Oh, buh-rother.

[Tsaritsin]

What happened to real Games ?

 

Title corrected, now if you work from this point onwards, you will have all your answers.

 

Edited April 26, 2012 by Tsaritsin