Direct-damage sages/sorcs will underperform in PvP if 1.2 goes live as-is

[JoyProtocol]

Yeah. You're a light armor caster. If you let someone sit and train you then you should lose. Get away, Sprint, CC, Snare, LoS, Heal, Knockback, Shield, Etc.

 

If you want to face tank people while hard casting spells then you should probably try something else.

 

Wait wait wait WAIT WAIT. You mean, like a Smuggler/Agent would? You know, like a squishy DPS?

 

One thing is, I would like to see some damage metrics from Sages/Sorcs in either DPS spec. Then, compare it to Commando/Mercenary and Gunslinger/Sniper. That would be a good starting point, instead of "I HAVE BEEN NERFED! THE SKY IS FALLING!"

[TheVoidStalker]

Even if you don't change the spec at all, Hybrid 13/28 still outdamages any Lightning focused build in 1.2.

[EnochThompson]

These are the 4 classes that can take out any sorc with ease:

 

Juggernaut, Assasin, Marauder, Powertech

 

Now chose.

 

Marauder can easily beat: Juggernauts, Sorcs, Operative, Snipers, Mercs.

 

Juggernauts can easily beat: Sorcs, Mercs, Snipers.

 

Assassins can easily beat: Sorcs, Operatives, Snipers, Mercs.

 

Powertech's before 1.2 can own all with ease or a little difficulty, next patch due to the rail shot nerf it will be pretty much even out I guess?

 

Now this is my opinion 1v1 which we tested on ilum on my server with people that had BM. Maybe you guys can fill in the void.

 

However the classes that have the upper hand outside of group pvp is basically 4 types which are Juggernauts, Marau's, Assassin's, PTechs, and they actually preform as good in group pvp.

 

So reroll one of the 4.

[veyl]

The devs have no clue what they are doing. Their testers are a bunch of inexperienced PVE clickers who have never played in a proper PVP premade.

 

GZ thinks teams of operatives are stunlocking people and making them unsub, and that somehow hybrid sorcs and tracermercs are stronger than marauders or tank assassins.

 

That's the level of chaos and cluelessness that is going on.

 

It's no wonder 1.2, which should have been a great jesus-patch with lots of new content, is being destroyed by a horrible class balance debacle.

 

QFT. Lets also not forget that whining on the Forums = Incoming nerf. Marauders/sents/assassins/shadows will be next.

[Endorn]

Even if you don't change the spec at all, Hybrid 13/28 still outdamages any Lightning focused build in 1.2.

 

 

*in any non-raid situation.

[Visue]

I went back and re-read the patch notes and I'm having a hard time understanding what all this wailing and gnashing of teeth is all about. So hybrids lost TK Wave/Chain Lightning's instant cast. The other changes are tweaks.

 

Calm down folks, the world isn't ending.

 

The change may seem minor, but it's enough to force a spec switch for virtually all DPS sages (and all DPS sages who played a hybrid spec).

 

The issue is that the Telekinetics spec is the only direct-damage spec left, and it is among the weakest in the game in terms of PvP.

 

The problem as I see it is three-fold:

 

1. Disturbance (Lightning Strike) does not do nearly enough damage. It equates to ~20% fewer DPS than Telekinetic Throw (Force Lightning), and it must be cast in order to proc increased force regeneration and instant-cast Telekinetic Wave (Chain Lightning).

 

2. Virtually all Telekinetics sage/sorc damage is able to be interrupted (resulting in no damage) or pushed back due to incoming damage (resulting in a drastic DPS decrease).

 

3. Virtually all Telekinetics sage/sorc damage must be cast while standing in one spot. There is no mobility. This becomes a problem when melee (especially marauders) have as many gap-closers as they do. Unlike the hybrid, which could still rely on powerful instant-cast abilities while moving, Telekinetics sages have very few options while being trained by melee.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Visue

[Ortagos]

There are actually more sentinels/marauders than sorcs/sages.

 

Overall the warrior and inquisitor populations are about equal, and higher than the other 2 archetypes.

 

i might have wrong numbers in mind, so corect me if im wrong...

 

inqu - 19%

sent - 12%

warrior - 15%

knight - 11%

 

sorc 9,5%/10%?

sentinal 7%/7,5%?

 

how many of them are main chars and how many are just twinks?

we will never find out the real nr. i can only talk for my friend list, and there are around 35% sorc/sage. and many of them have twinks... of other classes aswell, but tehy dont play them much at all. still them chars showed up in the % list of chars created

 

but doesnt matter anyway, i can swap between all 4 clases, but i feel sorry for every1 who kept focus on one class and they now get butt-fooked by this patch that cuts off alot of there way of playing the one and only fav classes.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Ortagos

[Visue]

Lets also not forget that whining on the Forums = Incoming nerf. Marauders/sents/assassins/shadows will be next.

 

It seems to me like BioWare paid too much attention to the people complaining and not enough time testing their specs in PvE and PvP environments.

 

Don't like the big AoE numbers the hybrids put out? Okay. Want to change them? Okay. But leave a viable direct-damage PvP alternative other than rerolling.

[Serophou]

Honestly Sorc/Councelors were so overbalanced that no one takes your complaints seriously. You guys have completely unrealistic expectations of how a character should perform. Your most likely still OP and will take several more rounds of nerfs to bring into line. I think you should all re-roll and gain some perspective.

 

I play a Guardian a Councelor and a Trooper and there's really no comparison, the Councelor outperforms the other two AC's by multiples of 10 on live.

 

I did just that. Now i love playing my maurader and chewing through sages. And 1.2 will only make it that much better.

[Visue]

Honestly Sorc/Councelors were so overbalanced that no one takes your complaints seriously. You guys have completely unrealistic expectations of how a character should perform. Your most likely still OP and will take several more rounds of nerfs to bring into line. I think you should all re-roll and gain some perspective.

 

I play a Guardian a Councelor and a Trooper and there's really no comparison, the Councelor outperforms the other two AC's by multiples of 10 on live.

 

This just isn't true. Believe it or not, my sage isn't my only character.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Visue

[TheVoidStalker]

*in any non-raid situation.

 

No, in any situation.

[Enexemander]

These are the 4 classes that can take out any sorc with ease:

 

Juggernaut, Assasin, Marauder, Powertech

 

Now chose.

 

Marauder can easily beat: Juggernauts, Sorcs, Operative, Snipers, Mercs.

 

Juggernauts can easily beat: Sorcs, Mercs, Snipers.

 

Assassins can easily beat: Sorcs, Operatives, Snipers, Mercs.

 

Powertech's before 1.2 can own all with ease or a little difficulty, next patch due to the rail shot nerf it will be pretty much even out I guess?

 

Now this is my opinion 1v1 which we tested on ilum on my server with people that had BM. Maybe you guys can fill in the void.

 

However the classes that have the upper hand outside of group pvp is basically 4 types which are Juggernauts, Marau's, Assassin's, PTechs, and they actually preform as good in group pvp.

 

So reroll one of the 4.

 

Marauders and juggs cannot easily beat snipers.

 

Assassins have all the right tools, but Maras and Juggs don't.

[Khadroth]

Honestly Sorc/Councelors were so overbalanced that no one takes your complaints seriously. You guys have completely unrealistic expectations of how a character should perform. Your most likely still OP and will take several more rounds of nerfs to bring into line. I think you should all re-roll and gain some perspective.

 

I play a Guardian a Councelor and a Trooper and there's really no comparison, the Councelor outperforms the other two AC's by multiples of 10 on live.

 

Honestly no one is going to take someone seriously if they don't know the proper spellings or advance classes for the associated base class.

 

Sages only outperformed due to a couple bugs, most of which have been fixed. However, people got all bent out of shape due to high warzone dmg numbers. Sages are very synergistic in a group, but fairly weak when flying solo. They're relatively straightforward and easy to play which leads to a lot of animosity and jealousy from players killed. However in most cases, these players are not using their own class to the fullest of its abilities (for example, I hardly ever see sents/maras using pacify, or GS/Snipers using their interrupt) and never realize its true potential. Rerolling doesn't help, the perspective I've gained has only showed me that the whiners are even badder than I suspected.

 

Think we're still OP? Go look at some of the new combat log parses showing up from 1.2.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Khadroth

[EnochThompson]

Marauders and juggs cannot easily beat snipers.

 

Assassins have all the right tools, but Maras and Juggs don't.

 

How we tested this was based on 4 fights with pretty good players. Out of the 4 fights yes it was not that easy because you cannot interupt a sniper, and the knockback can hinder a Jugger/Marau, however once the Jugger/Marau got into the game they took advantage of the static positioning of the sniper and destroyed them while holding back on the defensive cooldowns.

 

Snipers can be testy if left alone or taken for granted, but once you know exactly what to counter they are just like sorcs's due to the long casting skills they have. Most Range DPS are only good for group utility but once it comes to the solo environment in PVP they drop in value by more then 75% compared to the Melee DPS classes.

 

If I where to reroll which I wont because I already have 3x 50's, I would roll my melee dps in this manner: Marau, Assassin, PTech (even with the nerf), Juggernaut. And this is for PVP only since they have the freedom to group pvp or solo pvp.

[Blotter]

Hmz, I am already pretty pissed at the nerf. I am a valor lvl 70 Sorc healer (missing only 5 BM items, rest champion) and I am getting slashed to pieces by a Marauder/Sentinel within 5 seconds (bubble on, Power Adrenal on, Willpower Stim active). Only chance I have is purging his crazy DoTs or whatever they are but that's getting nerfed. My burst healing: gone. And with consumption dealing some serious damage, I won't be able to use it during a WZ for the sake of survivability. I don't even have an instant finisher move as a sorc (in contrast to Warriors/Agents). I am basically dead when I drop below 30% health now. Same for team mates, I am healing. *** am I going to do in a PvP match post 1.2? And I don't see how re-roll is an answer to basically removing one class from the game.

 

"I am basically dead when I enter the WZ and the focus-fire begins now."

 

FIFY.

 

There wiill be NO surviving it any more, especially if a Marauder decides to join the gangb***. We will be on the following loop from now on:

 

Enter WZ, wait for screen doors to drop, run into WZ, get noticed, get focus-fired, die, wait for screen dorrs to drop, run into WZ, get noticed, get focus-fired, die...rins and repeat.

 

The only other option is that even if we do survive the focus, we end up gimped with little health and little force and the only mathematically sane choice at that point, since Consumption is now so freekin broken, will be to go stand in the acid pool or a fire trap or hope you can get them to just finish you off so yuo can get back your full force bar without slashing your wrists or debuffing your regen rate to zero.

 

Captain Bubblevendor Targetdummy reporting for duty.

[silvershadez]

When i played with my sage i was doing PvP as a full Telekinetic sage for more then 1 month.

 

Before i went telekinetic i was hybrid, it was before hybrid specs became this popular. I was just fine with my hybrid spec. I basically could never go OOM (Out of Force in this game tho).

But the burst was really low for me. It may was because of my lack of gear in my first warzones on lvl 50, as i was ravaging the enemy in those pre 50 warzones with my hybrid spec.

 

I realized i would need alot of more burst if i actually wanna contribute somtehing but only damage. Telekinetic was called a mediocre, if not a worthless spec at this state of the game but i finally gave it a try, allways thinking it wouldn't be for too long as it was called weak and i believed those words.

 

Once i specced telekinetics it was a whole different game. I was like playing a fire mage in WoW. Enemies that didn't took me serious or just avoided me were facing the floor in less then 10 seconds.

 

I agree: once we get focused or attacked by even 1 enemie we can't keep casting our "standard" rotation. But we still have this nasty CC hybrids tend to have too (except instant whirlwind). In 1 on 1 I didn't had any issue with any class except fully balance / madness specced sages / sorcs (and just the good ones of them).

 

 

It's like people calling gunslingers/snipers worthless in PvP or even underpowered. If you ask me those guys have no clue about this class and probably never faced a good gunslinger yet. Those classes/specs and their stigma of being underpowered often leaves the enemy underestimating me making things alot easier for me as people don't really tend to know the full potential of this spec/class.

Edited April 3, 2012 by silvershadez

[Descends]

I havnt tested 1.2 but I love my sage DPS.

 

I use dots spec as I found the direct damage spec not a viable pvp option as things are now.

 

Im made of glass...get through bubble and Ill be dead in a few seconds but its fun gameplay.

 

I also have a Shadow in full battlemaster...the sage is worse off gear wise but I like it alot more...mostly because its more fun to play.

 

they supposedly changed the underlying mechanics of how the game works. so we dont know what to expect.

 

People cry about sorc because they SHOULD do the most dmg because they have the LEAST survivability. DPS doesnt heal themselves during combat, its futile.

 

training dummy + dmg log, we will find out as a community whats what. so just sit tight

[Visue]

 

Once i specced telekinetics it was a whole different game. I was like playing a fire mage in WoW. Enemies that didn't took me serious or just avoided me were facing the floor in less then 10 seconds.

 

I agree: once we get focused or attacked by even 1 enemie we can't keep casting our "standard" rotation. But we still have this nasty CC hybrids tend to have too (except instant whirlwind). In 1 on 1 I didn't had any issue with any class except fully balance / madness specced sages / sorcs (and just the good ones of them).

 

 

In terms of the immobile playstyle, I'd say it is a lot like PvPing as an Arcane mage in WoW, with the exception of the burst being much less potent. Disturbance simply does not put out the numbers it needs to in order to make its way into any PvP rotation, and the mechanics of the talent tree all but necessitate casting it.

 

Telekinetics PvP is usually okay until someone notices you. It's the same problem a lot of caster specs in similar MMOs face: they are designed primarily with PvE in mind, but PvP becomes difficult due to the nature of interrupts, spell pushback, and light (cloth) armor. The difference is that the burst output here simply isn't high enough to justify the loss of mobility and defense.

 

As a Telekinetics sage I still put up a decent fight against undergeared players or players who need some practice, but reasonably skilled sentinels/marauders are an uphill battle, to say the least.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Visue

[Visue]

This thread has been moved to from the PvP forum to the PTS forum, and now to the Sage forum... Edited April 3, 2012 by Visue

[DirtyBirdie]

Honestly no one is going to take someone seriously if they don't know the proper spellings or advance classes for the associated base class.

 

Sages only outperformed due to a couple bugs, most of which have been fixed. However, people got all bent out of shape due to high warzone dmg numbers. Sages are very synergistic in a group, but fairly weak when flying solo. They're relatively straightforward and easy to play which leads to a lot of animosity and jealousy from players killed. However in most cases, these players are not using their own class to the fullest of its abilities (for example, I hardly ever see sents/maras using pacify, or GS/Snipers using their interrupt) and never realize its true potential. Rerolling doesn't help, the perspective I've gained has only showed me that the whiners are even badder than I suspected.

 

Think we're still OP? Go look at some of the new combat log parses showing up from 1.2.

 

Wow man i've been following these 1.2 sage posts a while and you sure do switch tunes quite often. Everything i've heard you say before is along the lines of "stop qq'ing sages are just super post nerf" and now it sounds like you're actually saying the nerf is as bad as everyone else thinks? I'm beginning to think you just like being confrontational instead of actually picking a side and sticking to it...

[Vudu]

From my experience, sages and sorcerors could use a little tweeking, but nothing major is needed. Good operatives still destroy any toon I'm playing (all battlemaster, gunslinger, shadow and guardian). But, the class I hate the most? Powertech with a pyro build. Unless the PTPT is awfully bad, I don't even bother trying to work on them and target someone I can hurt in the 10 seconds I have left to live. Edited April 3, 2012 by Vudu

[SoonerJBD]

Wow man i've been following these 1.2 sage posts a while and you sure do switch tunes quite often. Everything i've heard you say before is along the lines of "stop qq'ing sages are just super post nerf" and now it sounds like you're actually saying the nerf is as bad as everyone else thinks? I'm beginning to think you just like being confrontational instead of actually picking a side and sticking to it...

 

Or perhaps Khadroth isn't simply trying to "pick a side" and is instead giving a true and complex opinion. It is possible for someone to believe Sages aren't ridiculously OP and yet believe the nerf isn't the end of the world.

[TheVoidStalker]

"I am basically dead when I enter the WZ and the focus-fire begins now."

 

FIFY.

 

There wiill be NO surviving it any more, especially if a Marauder decides to join the gangb***. We will be on the following loop from now on:

 

Enter WZ, wait for screen doors to drop, run into WZ, get noticed, get focus-fired, die, wait for screen dorrs to drop, run into WZ, get noticed, get focus-fired, die...rins and repeat.

 

Are you seriously advocating that any class SHOULD be able to survive being ganged?

[kenbenobi]

In terms of the immobile playstyle, I'd say it is a lot like PvPing as an Arcane mage in WoW, with the exception of the burst being much less potent. Disturbance simply does not put out the numbers it needs to in order to make its way into any PvP rotation, and the mechanics of the talent tree all but necessitate casting it.

 

Telekinetics PvP is usually okay until someone notices you. It's the same problem a lot of caster specs in similar MMOs face: they are designed primarily with PvE in mind, but PvP becomes difficult due to the nature of interrupts, spell pushback, and light (cloth) armor. The difference is that the burst output here simply isn't high enough to justify the loss of mobility and defense.

 

As a Telekinetics sage I still put up a decent fight against undergeared players or players who need some practice, but reasonably skilled sentinels/marauders are an uphill battle, to say the least.

 

Telekinetics pvp is is ok when everybody ignores you. Basically you are soft clothie turret with steady damage and hope that nobody comes to you. Mobility and defence is horrible in this spec and when you move you cannot do damage. Any decent melee will just hit you like training dummy or you can try to run...and die.

[silvershadez]

In terms of the immobile playstyle, I'd say it is a lot like PvPing as an Arcane mage in WoW, with the exception of the burst being much less potent. Disturbance simply does not put out the numbers it needs to in order to make its way into any PvP rotation, and the mechanics of the talent tree all but necessitate casting it.

 

Telekinetics PvP is usually okay until someone notices you. It's the same problem a lot of caster specs in similar MMOs face: they are designed primarily with PvE in mind, but PvP becomes difficult due to the nature of interrupts, spell pushback, and light (cloth) armor. The difference is that the burst output here simply isn't high enough to justify the loss of mobility and defense.

 

As a Telekinetics sage I still put up a decent fight against undergeared players or players who need some practice, but reasonably skilled sentinels/marauders are an uphill battle, to say the least.

 

As for the WoW comparism: i just played WoW until the end of TBC. Back then arcane wasn't a viable PvP option. (now enough of this comparism =P)

 

Disturbance is an great attack for me. You can dish out almost 1 Disturbance as fast as your Channel starts ticking. And once you get the proc from your Weaken Mind crit you can channel still twice as fast.

 

I just think people got used too much to the current hybrid / channel-spam playstyle. I loved playing my mage back in WoW, and he had to cast to make his spec work too (ok this was the last comparism i promise =P).

 

Once i went Telekinetic i didn't want to go back to another spec. They just were plain boring for me. But i get you have a different point of view about this that I'll respect. I just try to say Telekinetic ain't as worse as people make it, just like hybrid specs aren't dead after 1.2 if you know how to use them properly.