L2P from someone who hasnt even dinged 50. good work.

Yes, i agree they are a direct counter, melee dps, and im not concerned about the sentinel beating a sage. The problem is just how easy it is. Like zero competition, no chance. Its just over. And very quickly Huh? How did you think this one up? Force Multiplier? The fact that you are stating that the sage counts less than a full toon on the field is pretty much the only thing i pulled out of this. And with regards to why you attack the sages first, you smash the sage first because he is squishy as ****, and even if the healers wanted to keep him up 2+ people focusing the sage down it wont even matter This is just strange reasoning. Im very confused by force multiplying. force is a resource in this game so if you mean "strength" or "effectiveness" multiplier that would be a better choice of words, but even then its a very loosely put together argument. Each toon should have its own set of strengths and weaknesses that make that character viable. For example, if a toon like the sage is super squishy, it should pack a punch -> enter glass cannon mentality. Or if a character is a tank, it should output weaker dps. But that doesnt seem to be the case. The Sage hits like a wet noodle now, and the shadow tanks can smash your head into the ground. Hence the poor PvP balancing of this game. This isnt a new concept.

I rerolled as soon as i saw what was coming down the line for sages in 1.2 to a sentinel. My sage is 5 pieces warhero, all the rest BM. Once popping 50, my sentinel in 2 piece BM rest recruit was outperforming the sage by leaps and bounds. Now full BM sentinel is completely destroying, there is absolutely no comparison between the two. After attempting some bizarre seer/balance hybrid to see if i could improve my survivability and failing miserably, the sage is officially perma-shelved until new patch adjustments. It just doesnt feel fun anymore to play.

Oh really? Because the advantage of having augment slots seems alot more inticing than color choice... fine "patch notes" is somewhat valid i guess. Still seems braindead that one would work and the other wouldnt.

... Im still not getting a response that states exactly WHERE in the game, currently or in the past, that it tells you this info. And why it would have a valor 60 restriction on it if its just a vanity shell.

Where IN GAME did they clearly state that?

How does this even make sense when the War Hero gear DOES carry the set bonus? So i basically just spent all that time/mats/money crit crafting a full set of BM, spent about 80k each for 5 augments, spent 50k on the schematics, bound said augments to myself in gear that is now USELESS which means i will have to pull the augments out and spend even more money... Lets do some math 50K schematics + (80k x 5)augments + (~40k x 5)augment removal + ~50k mats = ~700k Where in-game is it mentioned that this is the case/why would there be a valor requirement on orange gear that is essentially the exact same as the stuff you can get @ level 17? So you can run around in a chocolate vanilla swirl robe (sage gear)? That is some brokeass brain dead logic if you ask me...

^ This. And why would you as a healer when you're probably to busy saving your tank from that marauder slashing him in the face, or that gunslinger dumping his ammo on you, etc. Thank you for being intelligent, not hypothetical.

Everyone says that any decent sage healer will look out for DoTs but its just not the case, namely because they're not that threatening. A healer has more important things to worry over. Its a moot point. And by the time you're casting TK throw they're dotted up and have a FiB already landed. Im telling you the likely hood of them noticing someone dotting them from behind is less than if you're shooting gigantic glowy blue balls at them. You cant just continue the assumption that we're all playing on MLG here either. Ranked warzones dont even exist yet so i doubt you're coming up against pros every game. Your arguments are terribad. The statement that "good players will do things perfectly" is stupid and can be applied to any/every situation to counter any point. I've read a bunch of your posts Vales and if i honestly thought you had a valid opinion about most things i would actually take your arguments seriously. Lets see these amazeballs Tele videos you keep promising and we'll talk. PS tk throw is your primary damage dealer as a Tele sage as well so lets just toss that aside for the moment and discuss the DIFFERENCES. I would also like to point out that the name of this thread is Hybrid or Balance? No mention of Tele because most people already know how terrible it is for pvp and dont even need to make the argument. Go read some threads on sage pvp and see what EVERYBODY else is saying about tele tree.

So let me get this str8... your considering shelfing the mara for a sorc/sage post 1.2? I think you're going backwards . I did the opposite. My sage is fully aug BM and WH. my sentinel is in 4 pieces BM and recruit and i do MUCH better as the sent than i do on my fairly stacked sage. Roll a gunslinger or commando if you want ranged dps, but know that the best pvp classes currently are the melee's.

I will agree that a TK sage probably has an advantage in a 1 on 1 vs a balance... your the only class in the game that can cleanse dots. Too bad your gunna get smacked hard against every other class in the game, where a full balance will do MUCH better. A turret in light armor with minimal survivability is just not a good idea. Not to mention you shoot fireworks so everyone can see whos tickling them with those gigantic disturbances that hit like beach balls. The saving grace behind a full balance is the fact that it is extremely inconspicuous as to who is dotting them up, and they dont even really notice/care about the dot damage until you start cranking into them with other abilities. You get 2-3 GCD's for free in balance in the dotting phase. Then you dump the FiB to trigger your dots, tk throw, snare, stun, and kite like a mo fo and get them down that way. No beachball throwing needed. Im not saying the damage is mind blowing, but 3 dots + tk throw you can really see the life melt off a toon. And severe force ignores resolve and can be casted every 9 seconds which is soooo useful in tons of situations. TK sage vs Balance sage in a 1 on 1 goes to the TK sage. PvE big ez mob fights and MAYBE really easy bosses could go to the TK sage, although it should be close, everything else the balance sage wins imo. And PS bubble burst doesnt make me rage, it makes he happier than pie! Please dont talk about classes you dont play . A sentinel/mara in full resolve = wrecking ball with no leash. You want to save the stuns/cc's for when i start popping my defencive cooldowns that basically make me a god for a decent amount of time. The ONLY situation where a bubble burst is good is if you get into a 1 on 1 situation and you want to run away. And if you start bubbling your friends before you go into a node fight (like you should) you can extremely easily fill everyone's resolve by 2 bubbles bursting. its a bad ability 85% of the time and good 15% of the time. I strongly suggest you reconsider it.

your doing it wrong. i bet you hit like a wet noodle when your not busy filling the enemy team's resolve bar with all those butt stomps and bubble bursts. also, let TK wave go. its gone, it will never be what it used to be.

For PvE content, nothing really has changed other than you are not going to be topping the DPS meters anymore vs other classes in the same gear. Kind of a bummer considering we wear light armor and are mega squishy. For PvP, you might as well reroll currently with how bad sages are, or rather, how good some other classes are in comparison. Sages are probably the worst PvP char out there right now imo.

I like you. You have educated opinions on your posts. Thank you for not being a lemming and taking the time to investigate the content.

Wow i cant believe how bad some of the advice on this thread is... i guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion. If i were you i would follow these guidelines to choose your build: Which builds are the highest DPS in a very general form? From what ive seen the hybrid build still squeaks out a couple of percent over the pure Balance and pure Tele builds, due to the Psychic Projection double dipping. I have also heard that they somehow altered the mechanics of PP so that it is not producing the same way it used to be pre 1.2.2. But the general concencus is that Hybrid > Full Balance > Full Tele although they are very close (1-2% different). Note that these numbers are stationary numbers based on the ideal case. Each build will have it's pros and cons. For example, tele provides a slight edge for burst and will come out slightly ahead on battles like SOA where you have windows to burn an enemy down. The damage is front loaded and when you get at the beginning is what you get during the middle and end for damage. Balance is a much stronger sustained damage spec, with a more ramp-like damage profile, and is ideal for bosses you need to be moving around (Lost island flash, EC). You still have quite a bit of burst viability with a pumped up project, a strong FiB, Force potency, relics and TK throw so don't think you cant burst in full balance because you can. Hybrid i find is great for PvP moreso than PvE as the build can run out of force quite easily, (alot more than the other 2 builds) and the versatility you can gain in the tele tree really compliment the strengths of balance quite nicely against other players. Personally i think full balance is the way to go. The immobility of Tele is just too huge big of an issue for me to even consider viable, and i find the Tele tree to be underpowered to compensate for down time. Think about this. Even in bosses like the fabricator, there will be times where you have to move to kill stun droids, run because you are being targeted, etc. when you will effectively be doing unbuffed WM damage with no only. The balance sage will have 2 dots continuely ticking doing alot more damage a second during these down times. And Fabricator isnt considered to be an overly mobile boss. All bosses require SOME movement. One more point - disturbance is god aweful for DPS. TK Throw is still 50x better of a spell to be casting when your higher priority spells are on cool down due to both base damage and chance to crit every second negating GCDs. Tele requires you to cast disturbance to proc some important abilities in their tree, and for this reason alone i find tele to be limp and weak. I think the reason some of the people play Tele is because its flashier and looks cooler, more of a pew pew sort of feel to it. Do what you like though. My guild runs mox raid meters to see how people are doing, and typically i find that the tele sage in our guild can achieve bigger numbers vs mobs and groups of ez's and i do much better numbers vs bosses in full balance.

This is blanket statement for beating any class... but if you really want to be good at pvp with your sage, learn every other class you can come up against, how they play, strengths, weaknesses, etc. I find the best way of doing this (other than rolling alts or playing on your friends accounts) is watching youtube videos of people playing other classes. I bet your success rate will go up significantly if you actually do this.

Really? They broke commandos too? That is really disappointing . I find the class that really gives me the biggest problems on my sentinel are operatives (kinda) and snipers/commandos with all their burst/immobs/knock backs. But yea all the groups im coming up against in warzones that are just DESTROYING us on the republic side usually consist of 3 healers (dont even get me started how annoying it is to try to kill off 3 healers, good luck trying that on a sage), and a mix of assassins and marauders. Maybe a tank thrown in the mix but not required with that kind of heals available. Focus fire 1 down at a time -> gg. Cant blaim em though thats pretty much what i would run too, seems to be the most efficient.

If the lowest burst DPS class can "nuke" a healer with 18 second long dots, a 5 sec channeled pebble throw, and 2 limp dicked bursty hits (project and FiB) then the healing in the game is broken. i think you need to tone down the adjective there bud, nuke? really? i can pop my relic, force potency, adrenals, and my biggest critting FiB in full BM is like 5k or less depending on their armor. and thats IF all that stuff is lined up. I have a 50 sage and sentinel. the sentinel nukes sage healers because of the interrupt factor, dispatch, crippling throw, and overall harder hitting abilities. The only sages out there that are arguing that we have great burst havent played any of the other DPS classes. If a healer couldnt hold himself up vs 1 person, ESPECIALLY a sage post 1.2 then they are worthless. You clearly havent tried dueling a healer buddy of yours. Try it sometime and time how long it takes you to take them down without them even moving. Then you may edit your post and replace all "nuke" with "irritate and maybe eventually kill but probably not". to be honest, im not even concerned that sages cant face roll healers. I would just like to know which class sages CAN counter, other than other sages... @ Tele sage guy: Tele is great. unless someone targets you, then your dead. or los running your *** off to stay alive, which will eventually lead to you being dead if they are persistant enough. At least balance has mobility and kiting tactics.

@ Cormacus: Psychic project double dipping has been nerfed. It still appears to be working but you only get 6 ticks out of the 8 per attack, reducing its overall damage boost and force efficiency. There is a thread about it, id read it over. Full balance is the way to go now IMO. @ namkcas: If you think you can "nuke the tar" out of healers as a sage you havent played any other classes. Best thing a dps sage can do vs a decent healer is keep them healing themselves instead of the group, and even then if they play right they can get an AOE for everyone else. i doubt you will ever get the healer down to 0 health before you yourself are dead for even being in the vacinity. @ Vales: Nope. Tele is terrible PvP. @ Shadenuat: I would suggest tossing your dots first then FiBing to maximize your damage. And yea, it might SEEM effective for DPS but run a DPS meter in an ops sometime and see how your doing vs other DPS specs not wearing light armor. Its depressing.

If you're choosing a character based entirely on what is good and bad right now, then don't roll a sage. They are in the running for worst class in the game post 1.2. Can you be good with them? Yup. im pretty sure if ewoks were in the game someone "could" be good rolling one, with their little bows and arrows and rocks etc. But why swim upstream if you dont have to? Sentinel, Scoundrel, or Shadow. Id say tank speced shadows in DPS gear are currently the best PvP characters in the game. But i would suggest rolling a class you enjoy playing, as BW could nerf destroy any/all 3 of those classes by the time you get it up to 50 and in decent gear. If you do roll a sage, good luck and get used to dieing. alot. hail squishface!

I dont think people have an issue with doing more than pushing 2 buttons... i never played my sage like that (tk throw + tk wave only). FOTM reroll class right now is sents/scoundrel, and the sent is FAR from a 2 button class. I understand if BW was trying to round out our rotation... but not only did they nerf TK throw damage, they nerfed DISTURBANCE damage increase as well, making it even WORSE. I dont even cast it anymore, i tried to work it in to replace TK Wave but its just plain god aweful. So instead of making the rotation more complex, they just removed 1 ability from it (and it happened to be our best AOE/single target hitter/burst ability) which actually made it worse... So now its a WM > FiB > TK throw till PoM > MC no brainer. 4 abilities for damage unless your full balance in which you toss in 1 extra dot. Toss in a project when your not concerned about force and want a slight increase in burst. Currently PP double dipping is the only reason to go hybrid for DPS numbers. People say things like "shouldnt have to rely on a bug to be viable" and i AGREE, but unfortunately the hybrid build does rely on it currently. And the fact that they would mess with 1/3 viable sage builds without even saying anything in patch notes is completely fuct. Unfortunately both PvE and PvP content require some sort of viable burst to burn down bosses like Soa, and almost all EC content. Sages just dont have that anymore. There is no reason to bring a DPS sage into an op wearing light armor with no burst when you can bring in a commando/gunslinger/pretty much anybody else who will put out bigger numbers, have better burst, and not be so damn squishy. Sage shelved, dust him off for high end PvE content as he is pretty stacked in gear, and that literally is the ONLY reason i bring him out. Rerolled sent, and eagerly waiting for D3. Our server is completely empty anyway, usually around 20-25 people on fleet. Good work bioware.

Hey, currently leveling my sentinel, lvl 39 and im finding that there are SOOOO many abilities needing keybinding/attention in a pvp environment that its almost impossible to utilize all of your skills effectively with the limit of only 2 quickbars. I still dont even have Awe, Dispatch, Inspiration, or Valorous call yet and im completely full... Any suggestions?

I would be careful there, sents/maras dont have any utility really... they have burst and survivability, those are different. They have no self heals, knockbacks/pulls, terrible AOE, almost 0 cc's and all of their defensive CD's are on long timers. But agreed, sages are definitely bottom of the pool for PvP and PvE when it comes to OPs DPS. Just read a post stating that post 1.2.2 Psychic project no longer double dips. If this is in fact true and BW didnt even mention it in patch notes, ill be furious and probably just bench my sage until they buff them up again. Cormacus, if anyone can confirm that double dipping is no longer occuring, you wont have any issues considering your spec/build. Only viable option left will be full balance. I've never seen such aggressive nerfs in any game ever. Its actually amazing how bad they made sages.

Are you *********** serious? They changed a HUGE component of what a large portion of sages are using as a build currently without even a sidenote? Can anyone else confirm this? My sage might be getting perma-benched if this is the case. What a joke. We should at least get a free respec out of that.

^ This. I really tried to stay optomistic post 1.2 and try out a variety of different builds, strategies, etc etc. Relics/force potency popped i still dont do dick damage to anybody in decent gear. I CONSTANTLY have to rely on LOSing everybody so i dont get destroyed... it feels like im playing hide and go seek more than i am starwars??? And if they are really determined its not hard for them to chase me down and kill me anyways. why is it that we now have to be twice as good as the other guy to not get completely pwnt? It seriously feels like there isnt a class in the game i have an advantage over. The worst part is im still putting up decent end game numbers (usually top 3 endgame dps) even though i cant focus kill someone for ****... so i doubt we will even get the buff we need due to the numbers game... PvE im currently in half rakata half black hole, am using the 1/12/28 build, and im RELYING on PP to double dip to stay EVEN with other dps classes that are less geared (mostly troopers in mostly rakata some columi)... and the troopers that are effortlessly keeping up/beating my numbers, get heavy armor, (now) have better AOE and better burst...