NGE wasn't SWG. Really, the PVP in TOR is much better than NGE PVP. Now, if you were talking precurb or curb, that was good stuff. Permadeath, XP loss, corpse runs and item decay. But, the best part of PVP in old school SWG was that it was skill based, not level based and class 'locked'.

Every time it's happened to me it's because I have high packet loss or very high ping ... basically, a bad connection.

In the midnight hour, she cries more more more 8)-

Imps don't pug enough. So, they lack fluid thinking in general. It's like a mindset or something ... killkillkill.

Lol, nah, I've been playing pyrotech 8)- And, I have no ego ... zen

Enough said?

What if you invert the Y axis?

... and the pendulum swings ...

I was doing alright as republic on Jung Ma. I rolled imperial as a pyrotech to learn how to counter them. My pyro is valor 41 right now and I can count my losses to republic on one hand, without using my thumb.

I had problems with pyrotechs, so I rolled one (as so many pyrotechs advised) to learn how to counter them. You want to know what I learned while playing pyrotech?

It's the weapon. Take it to a 'crafting' station, open it up and remove the mods. If you even need to do that much.

I didn't know that 4 man heroics were considered one person content. Only ops require groups. The reason I mentioned the difference in soloing between guardian and shadow is that it would seem to point toward surviving (or not) the content at that level would give a hint at how the class works for its role in group content. If one class can tank the mobs and another can't, which one is the better tank? To me, it's been shadow over guardian all day long. Are you telling me that vanguard is the only good tank left in the game? I haven't played vanguard tank, yet. I have played pyro powertech, though. Eventually, I'll switch to the tank role with powertech and compare my personal notes on each tank class.

Leafy_bug, how long have you played shadow or assassin? I'm just curious, not implying anything. I read that entire thread and I still don't see the problem. I rolled shadow first, within the first week of launch. Next, I rolled guardian within two weeks of starting the game. I rolled other toons to support the shadow and the guardian with gear and such. My shadow is artifice and my guardian is biochem - this matters. During the progression of each toon, I noticed that the shadow was vastly more suited to solo running flashpoints, heroics and dailies. The guardian eventually got to the same point, but the gear curve allowing the shadow to solo was way ahead of the gear curve for guardian. In other words, I was soloing dailies with the shadow in L49 mods when it took a mix of battlemaster for the guardian to do the same. This was with both in tank spec. I eventually switched to focus on the guardian. Considering the percent difference in the gear and stats from L50 to L56-58, 4-6% reduction doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me. My point isn't to argue against you for the sake of arguing. I truly don't get what the fuss is about. I'm wondering if most of the people complaining about this nerf just don't use the shadow to its potential? Then again, maybe there are certain flashpoints, ops, etc. that are better suited to shadow and some to vanguard or guardian? Vice versa.

I don't do op level pve at all, so maybe you could explain this to me ... how is having taunt, direct damage reduction attacks, one minute sapping and the highest internal damage resistance in game make shadow useless when we have an approximate 4% decrease in direct damage reduction? I still find the class extremely viable, just not for every situation. Of all classes, especially tank classes, I still feel that shadow has the most utility. We just don't have the single best of any main utility (dps, tanking or cc). But, in combination, nothing touches shadow, even after the nerf. But, I may be wrong.

How do you get to 5.5K from 7.3K? You should be closer to 6.3K which would translate closer to 40% damage reduction. You're running the numbers wrong.

In my experience, my shadow is much better than my guardian at both tanking and dps. But, that's more to do with the shadows ability to crowd control. It's vastly superior to other tanking classes.

Missandei is right, though. For pvp, shadow will still be good in the hands of a good player. People will still cry for nerfs on them even after the nerfs coming up. Still, roll a pyro, dude. Maybe you'll be as impressed as I am with how they've flown under the radar for so long.

Lol, you're right, I'm sure. It's a shame I've gotten so familiar with playing the class, I haven't bothered to read the fine print.

Well, I can't say anything about ops or pve hardmodes. About vanguard, all I can say is that I rolled a pyro powertech a few weeks back and havent logged on any other toon (I have 1 of each AC) since. It's amazing PTPTs arent on the nerfing block. Every single warezone, I get top damage, protection and medals. I run 4 man heroics solo. I could do the same with the shadow tank, but it takes a lot more work. Now, with shadow getting hit with nerfs, I'm guessing I'll be playing the pyro almost exclusively. The gunslinger is still fun, though 8)-

I'll still do okay in pvp and still solo the 2+ man heroic dailies with ease, I'm sure.

Yeah, I thought the same, until I toggled combat stance a few times.

Right, I editted 8)- Really, I think the utility that shadow brings with some crowd control makes up for the loss in pure face tanking ability. But, maybe I'm delusional.

Why does my shadow have 6900 armor rating? Nevermind, I read that wrong. At any rate, 6900 for me, now gives ~42% damage reduction. At 3100, my damage reduction is 21%. Considering that 150% over 100% should (on paper) bring me closer to 7600, not 6900, the percentages aren't working how most people are arguing here, that they do. Vanguard doesn't have stealth, force run, or 1 minute mezzes, do they?

Do yourself a favor, before you jump to conclusions on applied mathematics and dev statements ... log in your shadow or assassin, hit combat stance a couple of times and note the increase/decrease to both armor rating and damage reduction. Then, agree with me that it's not 150%. Finally, come back and agree, again, that the applied mathematics behind the adjustments isn't going to be 35%. Run the numbers yourself. Divide the final value by the base value. Realize that 150% is not 50%. Further realize that for it to be 35%, the base needs to be 100%. Finally, 150% over 100%, by addition is 250%. Actually calculating the adjustment is closer to 230%. The closer to final adjustment is closer to 14%, which will be further adjusted down making it less than 14%. Those are armor rating numbers, only. Those aren't damage reduction numbers. The damage reduction numbers are closer to 5%.

The paper adjustments for shadow armor rating are 150% to 115%. The doesn't directly translate to a 35% decrease. On paper, it's a 14% decrease. In reality, it's less than 14%. If you all would like, I can show you some real numbers, but there would still be arguments and disbelievers. The reduction in armor isn't that big of a deal. Shadow and Assassin have the highest internal resistance of all tank classes. I tend to think, considering the distinction between damage types, Shadow and Assassin will still prove to be a better tank in some situations than Guardian or Vanguard, simply due to the internal resistance. I have a L50, +70V guardian and shadow. Both are equally geared. Even though the guardian has higher armor rating and damage reduction than the shadow, the shadow has much higher survivability. There are more reasons to explain it than damage reduction alone. As the patch notes suggest, there is more to balance than raw numbers. Don't be so pessimistic.