Anbokr Posted March 31, 2012 Author Share Posted March 31, 2012 (edited) PvP is all about team work. END OF. You are not supposed to be able to take down one of a tream solo when they are working together, simple. Don't queue solo and then you wont have this problem. No one is advocating this. It's hell for a group of coordinated dps to even take out a group of tanks + healers (especially in the current warzones that favor survival and delaying). This problem would also be alleviated by introducing warzones like Alterac Valley that is more than just stand on node or keep tank up to win game. Edited March 31, 2012 by Anbokr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dee-Jay Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I'm not opposed to the idea of a "guard breaker". Sounds like a pretty cool idea actually although I haven't really seen too many examples of "guard abuse". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marlon Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 No one is advocating this. It's hell for a group of coordinated dps to even take out a group of tanks + healers (especially in the current warzones that favor survival and delaying). This problem would also be alleviated by introducing warzones like Alterac Valley that is more than just stand on node or keep tank up to win game. You're not suppose to be a group of coordinated DPS you're supposed to be a group of dps and tanks and healers. There's your problem and now I know why you're complaining. Not content you do the highest amount of damage you want your dps to be able to kill everything. I give up a lot to be hard to kill and defend my teamates, you on the other had have to give up very little to increase damage output. It's the standard DPS complaint, it's unfair that I can't kill this, I should be invicible, Sorry that's the job of the tanks not the DPS. Stop whining, reroll or learn your rotations, or why not play a different class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeterno Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 (edited) I'm not asking for this at all. There are soft-counters and hard counters. Interrupts don't make healers COMPLETELY useless in a match. Taunts don't make DPS COMPLETELY useless in a match (unless I guess you have a very efficient team of 3+ tanks rotating taunt). DoT's/stealth-detection abilities don't make stealthers COMPLETELY useless. Cleanse doesn't make DoT specs COMPLETELY useless. All these, when used correctly, can give one attacker/defender a sizable advantage, but none of them are a "hahaha i win" button. This isn't what I'm proposing. I want a long CD (maybe 2-3 mins) short guard break that allows you to break through a tank/heals team in that crucial moment (just like a well timed silence or stunned). I don't have all day to sit here and brainstorm like the Bioware class designers--they can think of a better "skill" softcounter to guard than I can. I'm just stating the desperate need for one that makes healers look stronger than they are with a passive buff. The thing is completely negating guard for say 5sec does in fact make it useless... healer still has other heals that arent on lockout for instance. By completley negating guard you remove the tank from the eqution at the most vital point. You basically give them a passive buff that's nice but can get debuffed when it'd be (most) usefull. What's the point of guarding anyone if people will deguard him and drop him like the sack he is while you stand idly by? Mightaswell respec into roles with more utility or damage in that case since that's what you're inevitably reduced to when it counts anyways. I guess I could supoprt a partial debuff, have guard only transfer 25% instead of 50% of the damage for the duration, but completley negating it imo goes a bit too far in the oposite extreme. I like TOR PVP cos tanks actually have a role in them. Can it get super annoying when my burst dps on the guarded sorc ball carier gives a laughable return for the setup involved? You betcha. But I do like the added complexity and challenge. Edited March 31, 2012 by aeterno Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xChroniCx Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Guard is fine, taunts on the other hand are ridiculous and need to be changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twor Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Guard is fine, taunts on the other hand are ridiculous and need to be changed. 6 seconds on 15 sec and 6 sec aoe on 45 sec timer is OP? You'd make tanks unviable in PvP if you'd touch taunts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xChroniCx Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 (edited) 6 seconds on 15 sec and 6 sec aoe on 45 sec timer is OP? You'd make tanks unviable in PvP if you'd touch taunts. By themselves...no. Stacked with guard, yes very op. If you don't think something will happen to either taunts or guard, more likely taunt, you must not have played mmo's long. Edited March 31, 2012 by xChroniCx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twor Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 By themselves...no. Stacked with taunt, yes very op. If you don't think something will happen to either taunts or guard, more likely taunt, you must not have played mmo's long. What I stated are the CDs and durations of the taunts. Thanks anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xChroniCx Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 What I stated are the CDs and durations of the taunts. Thanks anyways. What does that have to do with the combination of taunt and guard being too strong? Anyways, have fun with your "I am Quitting" post once they get "balanced". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjmc Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 (edited) By completley negating guard you remove the tank from the eqution at the most vital point. You basically give them a passive buff that's nice but can get debuffed when it'd be (most) usefull. What's the point of guarding anyone if people will deguard him and drop him like the sack he is while you stand idly by?I'm not saying that there should be a "guard negater", but if they did add one, what if it was a channeled ability? It would be negated as long as the channel was kept up, allowing the guarder to interrupt it. Or they could add it to the Sith "choke" ability (choking a vanguard would cancel any guarding while being choked), which seems to be a relatively useless skill from what I've seen (I am stunned but don't really take any damage for that time). Edited March 31, 2012 by sjmc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twor Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 (edited) What does that have to do with the combination of taunt and guard being too strong? Anyways, have fun with your "I am Quitting" post once they get "balanced". Nice try in editing, I quoted you before it anyways Where you demonstrated that you don't even know the CDS/durations of taunts I won't be quitting because I am not a player who looks at other classes skills and says to himself "Yes that is definetly OP, its not me being bad". *shrug*. If you want games were a tank isn't usefull in PvP you picked the wrong one- and its good that that is the case. The people who think PvP is only DDs and Healers should try to broaden their horizon. Edited March 31, 2012 by Twor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retro_Chrome Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 FYI the Counter to Guard and Taunts is...you guessed it! MORE DAMAGE!!!!! btw ops and smugglers have alot of this already, so do shadows/assassins and even DPS commandos with armor pen 1. Subscription to awesome game:15$ a month 2. Mediocre comprehension skills: wasted tax payer money 3. Asking for something that already exists: Priceless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xChroniCx Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Nice try in editing, I quoted you before it anyways Where you demonstrated that you don't even know the CDS/durations of taunts I won't be quitting because I am not a player who looks at other classes skills and says to himself "Yes that is definetly OP, its not me being bad". *shrug*. If you want games were a tank isn't usefull in PvP you picked the wrong one- and its good that that is the case. The people who think PvP is only DDs and Healers should try to broaden their horizon. I accidentally wrote taunt instead of guard...No misunderstanding in the cd's or how they work. You seem very bitter and defensive so I'm guesssing you already know they are too powerful together and don't want to let go of your OP'ness. Anyways have fun while it lasts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twor Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I accidentally wrote taunt instead of guard...No misunderstanding in the cd's or how they work. You seem very bitter and defensive so I'm guesssing you already know they are too powerful together and don't want to let go of your OP'ness. Anyways have fun while it lasts. Don't become a psychologist pls You're worse at it than at the game (if possible). You do realize that tanks in PvP are currently the most underplayed role, because you severly limit your damage output and are ONLY shining in protection (speaking from PvP pov). Its a teamplay role. If you don't like teamplayers you shouldn't play an MMO. Anyway, nice try. If you really think that tanks are a problem you should look at your own abilities. Or merely the lack of them sry. Only the people who don't understand what teamplay is have a problem with tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xChroniCx Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Don't become a psychologist pls You're worse at it than at the game (if possible). You do realize that tanks in PvP are currently the most underplayed role, because you severly limit your damage output and are ONLY shining in protection (speaking from PvP pov). Its a teamplay role. If you don't like teamplayers you shouldn't play an MMO. Anyway, nice try. If you really think that tanks are a problem you should look at your own abilities. Or merely the lack of them sry. Only the people who don't understand what teamplay is have a problem with tanks. Ok, I'll take my educated opinion (and that of most players I talk to) and wait for the balancing during the ranked warzone pre-season. That is why its a pre-season, to bring to light any balance issues that unccordinated groups of pugs can't account for in the current warzones. Taunt at 30%, off the gcd, and costing 0 resources will be adjusted. Just a matter of time after ranked warzones hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zyillo Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Tanking in PvP requires teamwork. As such, countering said teamwork should require - teamwork. Typically my 4 man team will just pressure the crap out of the healer. Properly used interupts and CC will kill any sage/sorc regardless of guard/taunt. When it comes to Mercs/Mandos and Ops/Scoundrels - have one teammate pull the tank in one direction, and push the healer in the opposite direction. CC/Slow each of them. Burst down the healer. Problem solved. Problem staying solved. And what I would like to emphasize here is that Tank/Healer combos present a PROBLEM in PvP. Yes. Problems are a very good thing. Nothing should be without some sort of consideration in PvP. Otherwise PvP is reduced to health bars and mindless rotations. PvP should have windows of opportunity that open and close as players make appropriate and inappropriate decisions. The good players will be able to capitalize, separating themselves from the bad. And as I've stated numerous times, this is by far the worst MMO community I have ever had the displeasure of being in. This thread should be titled: "I spammed my flowchart X,Y,Z and that tank didn't die like the DPS class I just killed moments ago. WAAAAH" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antipathize Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Dps in no way shape or form needs to be able to kill a tank. The tank is the dps hard counter ffs. I hope nobody actually listens to the Ops post, because eventually the only thing worth pvping with is going to be a dps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryotknife Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 (edited) Probably because the combination of guard + spammable taunts is overpowered. Adding a guard counter would prevent the rollercoaster of balance that will hit healers in every major patch--a solo healer is easy pickings while a healer with a tank is crazy. What is BW going to balance around? Adding a guard counter allows for a middle ground that balances healers as healers. or because of the fact that healing scales better than dps? you can also just focus the tank. most tanks dont actually tank very well. although i will admit the anti gaurd ability has merit. Edited March 31, 2012 by Ryotknife Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OdamanPrime Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Guard is fine, I still power through it. I hear having a melee train helps.... sorry you can't solo through a guard. Nevermind you could use pull + punt to put a huge distance between the tank and healer to melt the healer in a few seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slurmez Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 "plz give my class this" jebus....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlette Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I play a tank/healer combo and I've never had any problems with another tank healer. It's all about how you rotate your CCs and damage and I actually find it refreshing that I need to focus and watch my debuffs and time my CCs instead of just tunneling same target from start to end. Beating the Guard Mechanic is prolly the only thing in this game that requires skill. So no you don't need a counter to it, you need to man up and learn how to play your class and how the opponent's class/es work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WookieBob Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 already is a way to prevent guard from being used on a target- it's called bad tank, you know the guys that put guard on target then fail to stay in close range to the target? can't guard a target that already has guard on it and if the idiot that already has guard on the target isn't close enough they don't take damage for the target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zunayson Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 STEP ONE: grapple the guard/tank BACK 30m away STEP TWO: CC him using a mezz Optional: snare/root him afterwards because they don't affect resolve STEP THREE:Pounce on healer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tipkaee Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Do people realize any team with 2 healers and 2 tanks should never kill anyone? Also guard has lots of counters, 15 yard range is the most apparent. Also stack accuracy if tanks are to strong, they begin to melt like dps with about 4k more health. The issue is no one takes accuracy and than complains about tanks, and people don't know how the mechanics behind skills work. Besides isn't something balanced if both teams have 5 total deaths in a warzone? Nothing says every game should have 50 death per team, I much play in the first scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daxun Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Gotta agree with many here. Guard already has a few "counters" You can peel the tank. You can also aoe him and the healer. He's going to take a good chunk more damage. Usually too much burst for a healer to keep up, just cc the healer and finish off the tank. Especially if it's 2 or more of you aoe'n the 2 of em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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