What's missing in SWtOR? It's called a Grind.

[DieAlteHexe]

So, you don't like that it takes the person playing 15 minutes a week 5 months to get the same item you got in a week? Seriously?

 

I've seen people take this position before. It especially bemuses me since by the time the person who took 5 months to get the item(s), there is most likely going to be a slew of new items for those who want to hurry to obtain.

 

Then again, I don't give a you-know-what about what "some other dude" has. It just isn't important to me.

[Ansultares]

I've seen people take this position before. It especially bemuses me since by the time the person who took 5 months to get the item(s), there is most likely going to be a slew of new items for those who want to hurry to obtain.

It amuses me because at 15m a week of playing time, I'm wondering why you're even bothering with an MMO.

 

Even a weekly sitcom is too hardcore for that time investment.

 

Then again, I don't give a you-know-what about what "some other dude" has. It just isn't important to me.

Likewise. If I wanted it, I would put in the time he did. Edited March 30, 2012 by Ansultares

[VegaPhone]

I disagree, and agree. There should be a grind but here should also be a place for casual players... and to have to access to the same content story wise (ops) but at a different difficulty.

 

MMOs are designed for many style of players. Also UO allowed people who did not play a lot to have easy access to end game content by joining other guilds who already have the end game content, and so it also does not restrict players to only playing UO by grinding through the content. However, UO does still fit with your grind philosophy being important and that is if the person by themselves decided to craft houses, castles, hire vendors, and do other sand boxy content on their own, they could.

 

However, there should be a happy medium which even existed in UO by allowing hardcore players, and casual players to both play end game content.

 

Actually its taking from UO quite literally to have a sand box theme, possibly the raw open world pvp poll option if that's what that means, and to have an end game which allows people to excel with a grind to build houses, siege equipment, and castles etc to conquer lands, and the more they invest their time into the sand box game the more siege equipment, and castles (vantage points?) to conquer more lands which equate to several rewards to maybe changing the borders extending to a cantina, or some other benefits tied into world pvp.

 

For Ops, they can have different difficulties. For example story mode is easy, and it gives the necessary rewards to do HM ops, and HM ops have very rare drops to do night mare ops. Nightmare ops gear helps to do other 4man FP and finish the possibly insanely difficult bonus boss. Imo, the bonus bosses should be nightmare mode bosses in HM FP.

 

So having a grind is important enough to not make people finish the content too quickly. However, doing the same OPs for 3 months is a bit too much. So even though you are asking to not finish the content in 3-4 months, which sounds reasonable, it is not doable since there are only 2 ops and several HM FP, and with that quantity it should be finished in that time.

 

However, the problem seems content wise and how long it takes to make and the time players take to finish that said content. So it seems raiders have this problem to have other content to play in meanwhile until a patch/update arrives. That is why sand box games are easy ways to make that grind existent even when the raid content is finished. The sand box part of the game becomes a whole alternative of play style and the gear that they got from raiding offers them specific benefits over pvp gear, while pvp gear has other benefits as well. (If they designed for example pvp gear to give more hp, and less dmg stats, but raid gear to have less hp, but more dmg stats that there is a trade off in style and different advantages as well.--or different set bonuses which is the same idea but less of a stat difference)

 

So 3-4 months to complete several HM FP, and two Ops, sounds lengthy enough. There should be more alternatives to keep players entertained in general, including mini games as well.

Edited March 30, 2012 by VegaPhone

[DieAlteHexe]

It amuses me because at 15m a week of playing time, I'm wondering why you're even bothering with an MMO.

 

Even a weekly sitcom is too hardcore for that time investment.

 

Likewise. If I wanted it, I would put in the time he did.

 

Why not? What's the hurry? If someone wants to play an hour here, half hour there etc. I see no problem at all with that.

 

And I didn't say it "amused" me. I said it "bemused" me. Bit of a difference there.

Edited March 30, 2012 by DieAlteHexe

[DenitharPurloin]

I am not sure if it is the grind that needs to be here, but rather the difficulty of the process as a whole.

 

I know there are people out there that have limited MMO time. As it is their money on a subscription, i would not dream of rushing them.

 

But, let's face it, you are a minority. A great number of MMO players want to play (surprisingly?) with other players. You can level any character to Lv50 without grouping once. And then you are supposed to miraculously understand group mechanics needed for the end-game content.

 

Sure this game can be played and enjoyed alone. Will you experience the whole game? No. Can you experience the whole game as-is with only one hour to play a night? No. Do you actually want other players to be still interested in running instances when you finally get to Lv50? Well I should think everyone would.

 

That is the problem with the game. They tried to make an "MMO Experience" that all could enjoy. Well, they succeeded, you can enjoy it for a few months and then put it down.

 

Not the best recipe for success IMO. They tried to please everyone and wound up pleasing no one.

Edited March 30, 2012 by DenitharPurloin

[Moromillas]

I don't quite think you understand what the word 'grind' means, it's when you do the exact same repetitive thing over and over and over, synonymous with something that sucks.

 

No, no one wants something that sucks, why anyone would is beyond me.

[DarkCarnage]

well to me a exp grind seeem like i bore me to death, as i did that for ages in games like ff11, it was horriblely long and tough in that game. even ahd to grind end game skills from trail weapons and need at lest 1 other person to start if off.

 

rise teh diffucalty alittle, sure, making it were it stop feeling like your a hero and more of a grinding machine no. leveling should be fun, enjoyable and not make use want to shot ourselves.

 

now you sometimes have to grind some areas for gear, he bane of a RNG loot tables, but i can find it acceptible. lucks is luck, and i'm nicked name "The lucky B@stard" lol

[VJade]

then of course if there is a grind. then it becomes a bad thing and this OP will scream for less grind.

 

the rule of thumb is

 

Grind = Bad

No Grind = Bad

 

where does that leave us?

 

 

 

I think you have hit the nail on the head there.

 

the better or the best MMO will be one which produces both and a ballance between them.

 

EG a PVE online game which is easy to level (like it currently is) and you can NOT grind if you like.

 

but with planets/ locations / bosses / flashpoints etc whatever you want to call them that does make it an optional grind as long as there are seen benefits at the end.

 

 

MY OPINION.

 

I love the way it is.. for me PVP is crap.. I hate PVP.. not because i'm not good at it I just enjoy storylines and leveling better than pointlessly killing random strangers from around the world.

 

Where SWTOR falls short for me isnt grind as such as I call it.. more like a means to an end with regards to crafting.

 

Crafting can be classed as a grind eg collecting schematics for rare and special armor / weapons and materials..... in OTHER mmo's this is where they win..

 

IN SWTOR. there are NO unique items armor and weapons... this is a flaw... there should be massively rare items in the game that you can either win through loot or craft but only at the extreme level. This can be offset by making these items limited EG you CANT repair them.

 

EG you can craft a gun which does 1000 HP of damage per shot but can't be repaired once it runs down its durability until it breaks and then gets autoremoved from the game.

 

IN SWTOR once you have an item you can repair it indefinately.

 

If they make items perish then there will be a constant demand for crafting to re-get these said items and subsequently whether its grinding out a dungeon boss to win the gun or spending ages gathering meterials to craft it for them to sell on . etc etc.

 

 

I'm not saying take out the current repairable weapons and armor . what i am sayign is that there should be OTHER weapons / armor / etc that is crafted and looted which does perish but has better stats than the equivalent level repairable item.

 

 

There should also be some SUPER rare drops in the game to do with LORE . things that you might not necesarilly be able to use but still collect. Things like a trophy cabinet in your star ship which holds rare finds like Vaders mask, obi-wans cloak, luke's lightsabre, obvious film related items which might add a bit of fun to the game.

 

if this was introduced then people who want to grind can and people who want to just do the basics can as well.

[Alavastre]

I hate grinds, until it's more towards the end. I think TOR is missing faction grinds like in WoW. But don't worry, the legacy system will have people grinding for money, so at least that is something.

[OddballEasyEight]

I recall Bioware repeatedly toting "weve eliminated the grind" before the game was released...

 

but apparantly you just thought they were lying and went ahead thinking there would be a grind anyway?

[Chimeran]

It is a mindless grind.

Crafting sucks

Grouping sucks

SWTOR is a solo player

PvP sucks

 

What other game can I play?

[Ahkronn]

It is a mindless grind.

Crafting sucks

Grouping sucks

SWTOR is a solo player

PvP sucks

 

What other game can I play?

 

I envy your resistance and patience...

 

I mean, you hate the game in every aspect, yet you have two level 50's a a bunch of alts.

 

The question "Why?" comes to mind?

[VJade]

I envy your resistance and patience...

 

I mean, you hate the game in every aspect, yet you have two level 50's a a bunch of alts.

 

The question "Why?" comes to mind?

 

 

 

hahaaha..

 

he's a game troll...

 

much like a forum troll but secretly loves and plays swtor to death but *****es about it at every chance they get...

 

 

they are a funny breed. !

[Coyotecalls]

WoW was WAAAAY easier to level. They didn't make massively, huge zones with five miles of nothing in them. I think a good 30% of the time spent leveling in SWTOR is just driving too and from places. Especially in the indoor zones the tendency the developers have for making people run back and forth across the entire *********** map pisses me off.

[Vindigore]

WoW was WAAAAY easier to level. They didn't make massively, huge zones with five miles of nothing in them. I think a good 30% of the time spent leveling in SWTOR is just driving too and from places. Especially in the indoor zones the tendency the developers have for making people run back and forth across the entire *********** map pisses me off.

 

You havent leveled pre-cata then. Back before they polish/redo Azeroth & the 2 continents. I remember being in Desolace and the quest giver would give me a quest in Swamp of Sorrows (thats on the other isle!) - just for a quest line. I remember having to go to 4 different areas for the fishing 225 unlock, I remember getting a quest for Scarlet Monastery @ Desolace, I remember getting a quest for Winsterspring in Burning Steppes... tell me when to stop.

All the aforementioned quests are cross island quests, not just in 2 different areas. Most of them required 30-40mins to go (or return if you had a HS nearby) just to do a quest and then return to the previous area for the followup. No my friend, BW has learned from this and they dont have any quests lying on another planet (apart from the ones that are supposed to guide you to the next planet).

Of course, if you have only played the "new Azeroth" you wouldnt have known what a pita was questing 1-60 in WoW for 5,5 years.

[shaggscoob]

You didn't make any argument, you just posted up opinion. An argument requires support.

 

Personally I don't care for your disregard of MMO veterans that have put in the hours and the money to grow this industry into something other than pong.

 

LOL yes, because whenever I read someone on an internet forum making an argument, they always have several sources cited.

 

"Put in the hours?!!" It's a game!

 

Listen, like I said, some hardcore players DO add to a game, but out of the bunch, they're rare. Like, maybe 1 in 20. If you are one of those players that writes guides, always stops to help newbies, always gives constructive feedback, and is unflinchingly kind, then great! Based upon your short, rude posts, I doubt it.

[thominoh]

agreed.. today's mmo's don't have enough grind...... anyone remember the original hell levels in EQ1 and remember level 59..... OMG I was that that number for awhile..

 

If it was up to me, I'd revamp some of the end game..... but definitely make leveling 300% slower, while adding MORE "camp" static type quest rewards.. OH.. and allow players to temporary reduce their level to meet that of the zone so you never truly OUTLEVEL a zone..

[Taorus]

I say this again...No..grind is now a bad thing?

[DakataTan]

Aion had the grind thing about right, mayb a bit casual.

 

Grinding should be possible but not compulsaey. Choice is good.

[mangarrage]

Agree they have completely eliminated the grind from the game and it is sad.

ofc we all know who to thank for that.

 

But yea there is so many things I just dont get now in games.

 

The amount of investment, especially a game like this, put in to each planet and quests with their voice overs etc and it gets blown through in a minimal time.

 

The way that crafted items are useless cause you outlevel a piece of gear every day

 

Crafting where as long as you have the materials you have a 100% chance to make the item. This really irks me how since that game you cant fail a craft ever lol. I mean EQ was way too difficult but today its just stupid easy

 

But then it meant something to be a master smith. You can become a master armorer in this game in a matter of hours on a new character. And the fact that you could in essence have a max crafter at level 9 is horrid too

 

Like I said it all goes back to one game and although I give them an incredible amount of credit of bringing in a ton of new people to the genre they also single handedly ruined the genre at the same time for the 1st gen gamers

[Captain_Zone]

That's funny. I don't miss grinding one little bit.

[BadOrb]

A bit of grinding and no grinding together is good and I do agree swtor hasn't much of a grind in it. Well you could argue starting alts is a grind as you can do the side story quests again.

Phantasy star online was a grind , but mind you to get to max level required about at least 2 years of play , getting to level 100 was easy getting from 100-200 was well a very long grind.

 

One other mind numbing grind was in PSU were I repeated a low level event for 11 weeks , 8-12 hours a day , with a bad back to be in the top 100 on a leader board to get a mega shotgun phew that nearly killed me. Oh that was for 2 shotguns , 2 servers.

 

Still I'm looking forward to pso2 , f2p , f2o , but ill still play this and that. A grindy sci-fi mmo and a not-so-grindy sci-fi mmo

 

To grind or not to grind , try both.

 

cheers,

 

Badorb.

[NermalDetonator]

I totally feel what the OP is saying and I miss games like this. Brings me back....

It's that special feeling you get when you're trying to get that one recipe or that one component you need for an item you really want, and when you finally get it..it's the best feeling. This game practically hands you everything on a silver platter with little to work for.

 

Every day I log in JUST to PvP and raid one time a week. That is not worth a $15/month sub. And yeah yeah...I made alts, which I can't STAND to do. I hate alt'ing and I shouldn't have to due to a complete lack of content.

 

Farming and hoping the RNG awards you the (insert item/receipe of choice... in old EQ mine was the Mask of the Deceiver) isnt really content though.

 

Running a treadmill to get an extra .00008% efficiency at treadmill running just doesnt do it for me anymore.

[kevlarto]

I remember when MMOs had no "end game" and were much more game then many of the latest MMOs. Many players were so busy having fun playing the game that none thought about the end of it.

 

I know what what you mean seems like allot of people worry about end game before the game even launches these days.. Times have changed post wow thats for sure.

[Toonimator]

Crafting where as long as you have the materials you have a 100% chance to make the item. This really irks me how since that game you cant fail a craft ever lol. I mean EQ was way too difficult but today its just stupid easy

 

But then it meant something to be a master smith. You can become a master armorer in this game in a matter of hours on a new character. And the fact that you could in essence have a max crafter at level 9 is horrid too

 

Like I said it all goes back to one game and although I give them an incredible amount of credit of bringing in a ton of new people to the genre they also single handedly ruined the genre at the same time for the 1st gen gamers

Sorry, how is failing at crafting an item you farmed up mats for (or paid for) MORE enjoyable? You need failure at crafting to feel self-worth in the game? It only "meant" you put a lot more time into the game... I remember starting WoW in BC, and failing at skinning a boar in Dun Morogh. Sometimes I'd fail a couple times. All that meant was I was spending an extra 10 seconds trying to get some rough leather scraps, when I could've been hoofing it to the NEXT boar I needed to kill & skin. Not much of a sense of 'accomplishment' when I'd succeed in skinning.

 

You can fail at Crew Skill missions. I think that's plenty of 'chance at failure' for the crafting side of the game. Oh wait! There's also Re-engineering. Lots of 'failure' there, too, and I know it's supposed to get better in 1.2, but even so it'd be a LOT worse if you could fail at crafting the items you intended to re-engineer. Imagine the threads if you had a chance to fail at every single step in the crafting process!

 

Did you also hate how they made basic mounts--and training--so cheap in WoW and put regular and epic ground-riding at levels 20 and 40, down from 40 & 60?

 

A sense of accomplishment isn't a bad thing... attaching it to grindy game elements, though, is.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Toonimator