Not nerfing Shadows with 1.2 is a huge mistake.

[Vyndeta]

I heard your guild was going to another server? What happend - why aren't you guys gone yet?

 

Half of us rerolled on The Fatman server to get 50 and play. The majority will all still play together when rateds come (on Wots and the fatman). Others and I still Queue up on WoTs but not as much as we did before.

 

 

Come on though, I have seen some pretty bad players running the spec and you have had to as well.

 

lol yea there so so so so so many bads playing Shadow/sin. Which is why the spec looks average and doesn't look like it needs a tone down at all.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Vyndeta

[broganthomas]

Yeah, they will be getting nerfed, only 10% which isn't much considering how much damage they pull. Sorry but they will be okay. Sentinels on the other hand, I can see a lot of crying after patch but it will take people a little time to finally take notice.(Or get their butts handed to them a few times)

[sivlin]

Serious posts only please. Shadows have the best of everything, not the worse.

 

 

Disagree? here, have a 4 second stun that causes all damage, from regardless of who deals it, to inflict 9% more damage.

 

I got tired of reading through the thread so I've decided to pick on you .

 

Please play the class before speaking.

 

The specific item you are talking about is a 3 point talent that is, in probably 80% of cases, not taken by any shadow even if they exclusively PvP. It also does not even apply to the stun you are talking about. The talent applies to spinning kick, a 2 second stun which allows for a single attack from the shadow himself to get the extra damage and 2 attacks from anyone else if they initiate their attack within .5 seconds of you using spinning kick.

 

Would hardly say overpowered.

 

Also, while I definitely do not think shadows need a buff - I wouldn't say that we need a nerf either.

 

The high damage output is, as people have said, from almost all of our damage being done as AoE. I do quite a lot of damage as a shadow since I am fully Champ/BM stalker gear - and the highest I will hit for on any attack is somewhere below 4k with Spinning Strike my below 30% finisher. With my AoE's the highest number I'll see is somewhere around 2k per target. Which is definitely a good AoE, but not game breaking.

 

The reason we are so good in a 1v1 situation is due to us being self healing tanks. A DPS class is not meant to win against a tank. On that note, it is really hard for a kinetic to win against a healer. The healer has to either be bad or the gear discrepancy has to be huge.

[AMKSED]

Half of us rerolled on The Fatman server to get 50 and play. The majority will all still play together when rateds come (on Wots and the fatman). Others and I still Queue up on WoTs but not as much as we did before.

 

 

 

 

lol yea there so so so so so many bads playing Shadow/sin. Which is why the spec looks average and doesn't look like it needs a tone down at all.

 

This.

 

There's maybe 3-4 out of the prolly 60+ people I've seen playing the spec that are good at it, including me. Now those 60+ people who aren't even good at it can still hold down players just due to the imbalance the class/spec has. I'm not looking forward to the day when those 60+ people figure out how to play it and that's all we see in WZ queues.

[Keeperss]

Nerf them but than we need medim/hevy armor to not be the ussles clas in the game! Nerf sin is like knife in back! Dead!

[cycao]

lol yea there so so so so so many bads playing Shadow/sin. Which is why the spec looks average and doesn't look like it needs a tone down at all.

 

Yeah well ill give you that one i guess:cool:

[originaltodzilla]

Doesn't anyone realize that "class re-balancing" is a total myth?! The main reason is that no two players are alike so one person can play a totally crappy class great, and another person can play a FOTM or OP class really badly.

 

Eventually most people figure out the FOTM class, the gear, the skill rotation, etc. Then mathematically it's the best class. The next step that makes this an impossible task (re-balancing), is all games want "variety" different classes, and different skills. Because who wants to play a game that has ALL the SAME class? So how do you make different skills, that different classes don't have, yet offset what your class does have? You can't.

 

For instance as a Commando I except I'm a piece of meat for a glowstick to hack down, but at least I could DPS you. But if you can interrupt it?! Now how is it fair? I guess I get to get an interrupt, but then you need more DPS. So it's just basically a vicious cycle.

 

If I was BW, I would skip re balancing because it always will upset more people than who it will make happy.

[Darth_Acherus]

thats even more of a reason to tone the class down. 2v6ing is "average." 1v3ing BMs ..."Average"... 2 month old video, Same Spec, and doing the exact same thing or worse to everyone.... "Average "

 

He may be average... but those imps were some of the worst players I have ever seen so it evens out.

[Badlander]

Lol, another nerf thread...go figure.

[lexiekaboom]

I got tired of reading through the thread so I've decided to pick on you .

 

Please play the class before speaking.

 

The specific item you are talking about is a 3 point talent that is, in probably 80% of cases, not taken by any shadow even if they exclusively PvP. It also does not even apply to the stun you are talking about. The talent applies to spinning kick, a 2 second stun which allows for a single attack from the shadow himself to get the extra damage and 2 attacks from anyone else if they initiate their attack within .5 seconds of you using spinning kick.

 

Would hardly say overpowered.

 

Also, while I definitely do not think shadows need a buff - I wouldn't say that we need a nerf either.

 

The high damage output is, as people have said, from almost all of our damage being done as AoE. I do quite a lot of damage as a shadow since I am fully Champ/BM stalker gear - and the highest I will hit for on any attack is somewhere below 4k with Spinning Strike my below 30% finisher. With my AoE's the highest number I'll see is somewhere around 2k per target. Which is definitely a good AoE, but not game breaking.

 

The reason we are so good in a 1v1 situation is due to us being self healing tanks. A DPS class is not meant to win against a tank. On that note, it is really hard for a kinetic to win against a healer. The healer has to either be bad or the gear discrepancy has to be huge.

 

You forgot only usable in tank stance, and were not clear enough that it is only available to a pure tank spec (as it's in row 5).

 

And the cool down is 45 seconds.

 

And it builds 60% resolve.

 

And it's resolve dependent.

 

And if you were to spend 3 points on it you would have to give up self healing because of where it is in the tree (or force reduction on your two main abilities by only taking 7 in balance)

 

Oh yeah, that ability is crazy op.

[Redmarx]

Damn cry babies with nothing better to do, Bounty hunters will still be doing massive damage and they worry about shadows lol.

 

Impressive that you both criticise cry babies and then cry about bounty hunters, in the same sentence.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Redmarx

[Neamhan]

http://i.imgur.com/75Ygs.jpg

 

he pulls this quite often. Can't find a huttball one in my SS folder, but I can ask if u are interested.

 

700k damage as a tank spec ? Working as intended Ez. The tank shadows in our guild are so confortable with there damage they use tank relics.

 

Anything is easy when you have four healers in the WZ healing you with totals of: 250k+, 300k+, 450k+ and 500k+. He also probably spent the entire WZ wailing on that Imp healer (who did 550k+ healing himself) who only died once the entire WZ.

 

I'm actually more impressed with the guy who had nearly 200k protection since that probably did more to help win than raw damage that doesn't kill anything.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Neamhan

[Astarica]

Anything is easy when you have four healers in the WZ healing you with totals of: 250k+, 300k+, 450k+ and 500k+. He also probably spent the entire WZ wailing on that Imp healer (who did 550k+ healing himself) who only died once the entire WZ.

 

I'm actually more impressed with the guy who had nearly 200k protection since that probably did more to help win than rare damage that doesn't kill anything.

 

If you had that kind of healing there's very little risk to get protection number too. I've seen quite a few of the stalemate games where you can go for several minutes without anybody dying on either side. These games tend to be best for screenshots since it's basically like fighting a training dummy. There was a game where I was fighting 1on6 because 5 of the guys was healing the one guy I was attacking, and I lasted a very long time against those 6 guys!

[-level-]

Vyndeta you make me sad. :| Now shhhhh....

 

<3

Edited March 29, 2012 by -level-

[Mitsu]

That "massive burst damage from stealth" has been nerfed and is being nerfed further in 1.2, as people on forums were complaining about it.

 

Just as they complained about OP tracer spam, OP sorcs and now OP assassins.

 

It's your turn next.

 

As long as they leave my balance shadow alone then feel free to nerf tankassins and kc shadows. =P

[Sharn-]

You can't expect people to differentiate between the different specs of a class unless they actually play one themselves.

 

For example, I know that Shadows/Assassins are OP. I know they have Stealth, resistance on a 45 second timer, Self-healing, Speed, AoE knockback, Guard and sometimes even a Pull. And all that coupled with some insane burst damage that's quite easy to set up when coming from Stealth.

 

Now this is probably and issue with the tank-hybrid spec, but that's not something you can expect everyone to observe.

 

 

Sounds like you solved the problem right there, you see an assassin and assume they are all the same. Tank assassins do not have tremendous burst, they rarely stealth around the battle field trying to pick people off, they are front line fighters who can put up some pretty impressive total damage in warzones when the enemy team stands in a wad around a node. Their attacks may not hit hard, but it can rack up a lot of damage when its hitting 6 people at a time.

[Cowflab]

As long as they leave my balance shadow alone then feel free to nerf tankassins and kc shadows. =P

 

I hear you. I have no idea why people say balance/madness needs a survivability buff. I usually have no more than 2 deaths per solo queue with usually 250k-300k damage and comparable healing and protection numbers to darkness(minus guard bots).

 

I'm of the mind that madness is in a pretty good spot in the hands of a capable player.

[Acindo]

Anyone that actually has a Sin/Shadow and is saying Deception/Infiltration is worthless or weak should delete your god damn character.

 

Sick of bads crying. Yes the spec needs some improvements but it's far from worthless.

 

Also if people are gonna be rolling new chars why do you think everyone would make a Sin? Marauder would be better.

[TheLakers]

Nerf them but than we need medim/hevy armor

 

In that case, give Guardian/Juggs Stealth/Vanish then.

[Mitsu]

I hear you. I have no idea why people say balance/madness needs a survivability buff. I usually have no more than 2 deaths per solo queue with usually 250k-300k damage and comparable healing and protection numbers to darkness(minus guard bots).

 

I'm of the mind that madness is in a pretty good spot in the hands of a capable player.

 

I agree with this entirely! We really are in a good spot. I'd be upset if we got a nerf or a buff honestly. I wish more people played balance on Shii-Cho. Most shadows are tanks or infiltration, ah well!

[Vaipyr]

Everyone that has ever made a "nerf X" thread/post is just terribad and trying to destroy the game with the constant nerf cycle of mmo destruction.

 

Just going through the forums it's very clear that

 

Every class is OP

Every class is UP

Every player is bad

Every player is pro

 

Well hot damn, looks like some mighty fine balance we have here.

 

So what's the next class we can all try to nerf destroy after Mara's/Shadows?

 

PT tanks and Op healers?

 

owait, balance shadows and lethality snipers. YEAH

 

ugh

[Cowflab]

I agree with this entirely! We really are in a good spot. I'd be upset if we got a nerf or a buff honestly. I wish more people played balance on Shii-Cho. Most shadows are tanks or infiltration, ah well!

 

The spec just has a stigma attached to it I suppose. Most think that because its DoT based, that you can only spread insignificant splash damage, which we both know is far from the truth. Balance/madness also has quite a bit of utility and the fact that I can "counter kite" as a melee class is just outstanding. I've seen maybe 1-2 other madness sins on my server and I'm ok with that.

[kickinhead]

First of all, the Shadow is atm. the Tank that does the least DMG overall with Tankstance/Cell active. He gets out-dps'ed by all the other Tanks atm.

 

With the upcoming Vanguard-nerf and Guardian-Buff, we'll have to see how the shadow does, but as sm1 who plays both Shadow and Sage and knows pretty much every build of every class very well, I have no Idea why ppl consider the Shadow OP in regards to DPS.

 

There are a few things that ppl do, that I don't really understand and it shows a big lack of understanding of PvP:

 

They look at the overall-DMG after a WZ and they think it is a viabe indicator of how well a character does. This is not at all the case, because of several reasons:

 

There are basically three types of DMG in this game: Single-Target Burst, Single-Target DoT and AoE. Single Target burst is by far the best, because Healers have an extremely hard time healing spiked DMG, but a rather easy time healing up pressure. So if you activate your AoE-DMG or Tele-throw, it's actually no problem for the healer to heal up your DMG. Compare that to a Commando for example, that does heavy single-target DPS and has the ability to burst out about 7-8k onto a target in a matter of 1/4 of a second.

 

Also, survivability has a huge role in how much DMG sm1 does. If you have a tank-spec, you'll do more DMG, simply because you live longer. But if you have for example a squishy Shadow-build, but very good tanks and healers in your Team, you can out-DPS a tank-shadow any day.

 

Another big thing is that ppl look at tank-stances/cell and compare them to the DMG-stances/cell and then come to the conclusion that they must be OP. In fact, it is the DMG stances/cells that are heavily underpowered atm. Why would I give up 150% +Armor, 15% Shield-Chance etc. for a measly percentage of +DMG? Why would I use a DMG-Stance, if I can go for several different skillbuilds that do more DMG without giving up "Guard" and a huge amount of survivability?

 

I also think it's basically a waste of time to complain abaout balance based on some numbers after a game and before ranked 8v8 PvP teams can enter a ranked WZ-environment. The highest Priority of this game is to make every class and various different builds viable in a 8-man-team, it doesn't really matter if any one class out-dps' another class, as long as it's not feasable to stuff a 8-man-team with 4 of the same classes using the same builds.

 

As the balance is now, I'd pretty much use every class in a 8-man-pvp, because they all have certain utilities and strengths and weaknesses that complement each other pretty well.

Edited April 4, 2012 by kickinhead

[Stenrik]

Best way to get people to use legacy rerolling is through constantly changing the FotM.

 

BW's doing this because we're enabling them by letting the forum fill with misinformed nerf threads. Dumb- but frankly, if that's how they nerf- it's best to use the venues that are offered to you.

 

Tinfoil hat much?

I see where you're coming from but remember that there are many people who'd rather quit than reroll when they feel gimped. They have to be taken into consideration too.

[Swidgin]

Everyone is going to make one with Legacy, because of how OP the class is.... Then they'll have to turn around and nerf them in 1.3

 

Warzones will be over 50% Shadows/Assassins.

 

Masses of SWTOR Nerds will rage because they leveled a Shadow and then it gets nerfed.

 

I would be vastly better to bring their nerfs now, with all the other class changes.

 

This is a simple fix.....

 

Combat tech gets a 15% dam Decrease instead of 5%

 

Shadow gets a 10% dam inc instead of nothing

 

WIN WIN...............DO IT BW!