All this 1.2 QQin about NERFs...Wat about Ops/Scoundrel?

[Ellva]

In pvp if I open on another class I will most likely win. However if I get caught out of stealth by a mara or a tank sin I'm completely screwed. Their survivabilty is better and their damage is on par or better. I see my Mara buddy with a healer cause way more havoc then an op could ever do simply becuase of how squishy we are.

[hulkweazel]

Ops/scoundrels are fine.

 

There are a few bad, vocal, angry operatives/scoundrels that don't find themselves capable of four shotting *ANY* class that stumbles across their LoS, and thus believe they are a broken, unplayable class.

 

Meanwhile there are hundreds of ops/scoundrels that are finding success in warzones by playing to the strengths of their class rather than trying to gank sin tanks and juggs.\

 

As a sniper, if I spent most of my time attacking sin tanks and expecting success I'd probably be angry and screaming for buffs too, but I don't, and I'm not, because I know I'm more suited to killing the squishy healer thats heal-botting the ball carrier than having 60% of my physical damage mitigated by tankyness.

So you play a Sniper, and that qualifies you as an expert on Operatives?

Edited March 26, 2012 by hulkweazel

[alement]

buahah current operatives can still 100-0 people...

 

This.

[Mr_Gallows]

You cant even grasp what is said, so once you do and you realize oh ok, thanks...

 

You keep typing this crap, but your posts have no substance. Why not just answer him and make a list of the things an Op/scoundrel bring to a group, that would make the group pick you over another class.

[BobaFurz]

who cares about rated anyway...this game is not made for this, if you want to do serious pvp better look for another game.

[AdmiralOnasi]

 

So since when do Operatives hit for 14k in one global?

Seems like you are the one speaking out of your arse to me.

 

That's just disgusting. Now, it was a problem when we could put out those numbers stacking every buff under the sun, but it's perfectly ok when a glowbat class can do it after bracketing, biochem nerf, surge nerf, and buff stacking fixes were all implemented.

[Howbadisbad]

buahah current operatives can still 100-0 people...

 

Fresh 50 Sorcs in greens maybe.

 

Anything that is equally geared, not even close.

[OldSwab]

Sweeping the catwalks and dusting off lone enemies trying to set up for passes is about the only thing I bring to a huttball match on my Op.

 

Understandably, our double-opener (stealth, hidden strike, restealth, hidden strike) is being taken away in 1.2.

 

Bafflingly, they're also putting our backstab on a longer cooldown in 1.2...this is a skill that you must be in position, and in melee range to use. I just don't get it, and (as an aside, 'cuz I know this is a PvP forums) it makes us a horrible choice to bring along in PvE for dps. This is on top of the past four or five nerfs to our core opener/dps skills.

 

I play my Operative when my guild needs to fill a spot. I'm leveling a marauder and a sorc to enjoy some strategeories/utility

 

Bioware has given up on balancing concealment/stealth openers for now and has handed us some long overdue fixes to healing as a tradeoff while they buy some time to figure out what stealth needs to be when it grows up.

 

My fellow Operatives, we've been Ilummed.

[goulet]

i don't know that the issue is necessarily a lack of utility (ops sit pretty well with self utility) but what utility they bring to the table relative to other classes. The question this raises is what does the op bring to the table relative to other classes. the problem with that answer is that everything they bring to the table someone else brings too, and they have more tricks in their bag in addition to it.

 

Looking at stealth

-its nice utility, but most of it centers around people not being in combat. In combat its nice for buying you a few seconds to prevent a cap, or a knockdown to help finish someone off.

 

The thing is assassin also brings stealth to the table, in addition they bring a sprint and a pull (both gap closers), a aoe knockback, 2 stuns, a single knockdown usable in combat (not from stealth).

 

healing:

-it is the only melee dps class to bring healing to the table, that being said most dps' boost to healing form spec is only a reduced cast time (down to 2 seconds), a ta rewarded from its use, and a reduction to the pushback.

-to be fair if you go into cover when casting a heal you wont be interrupted, but by the same token you're also going into cover as a melee character who more often then not is right by their current target, and surrounded by other enemies.

-theres a quick heal which requires a tactical advantage, but its amount heals is lacking at least for dps.

 

at the end fo the day they may be lacking in utility, but i dont see that excluding them from being affective with what they have for themselves and their team.

reasons:

 

-group stealth: stealthing half your team to the door in voidstar. tricking people into thinking nodes are unguarded in alderaan.

 

-stealth tandems: you pair 2 ops or an ops and a sin, and you have a nice sneak team for alderaan. ops dps+spot healing +assassin and their damage and menagerie of cc.

 

-anti healer: i see a lot of teams incorporating more then one stealth class to combat range healing. powertechs can be nice anti casters too, but it requires advanced prototype spec for the 6 second interrupt vs 8.

[Slurmez]

One of the moronic suggestions in the nerf shadows/assassins thread was that the devs need to balance classes around the top players on said class. With that in mind ops/scoundrels would be due more nerfs because the best Ops/Scoundrels are still the scariest things in game.

 

(I get that they are the exception not the rule, my point was others dont, if your class is underperfoming as a whole they will eventually get relevant buffs)

[Swarna]

Fresh 50 Sorcs in greens maybe.

 

Anything that is equally geared, not even close.

 

Actually, try a full BM Marauder. Dueling against certain ops/scoundrels on my server has shown me that they can 100-0 me on a double opener with some lucky RNG occasionally when they adrenal+relic up and I don't have any defensive cooldowns activated. They'll leave me with extremely low HP, otherwise.

[Ahhmyface]

One of the moronic suggestions in the nerf shadows/assassins thread was that the devs need to balance classes around the top players on said class. With that in mind ops/scoundrels would be due more nerfs because the best Ops/Scoundrels are still the scariest things in game.

 

(I get that they are the exception not the rule, my point was others dont, if your class is underperfoming as a whole they will eventually get relevant buffs)

 

Wow, you are blowing my mind right now.

 

You mean you actually think that the game should be balanced around players who can't bother to learn how to play their class?

[Crumpilumpigus]

The one thing I can't understand about these threads is how some scoundrels can have such a completely different play experience than others.

 

On my server, there are still scoundrels that get marked with the healers as priority kills. The reason why is because if we don't, they will kill everyone. Watching them kill is like watching someone hammer nails in a board - people just drop one after the other before them and these people are all in battlemaster gear.

 

Then I come to these forums and people are talking about how scoundrels aren't even viable in the game anymore. So what is the truth?

[Celebrus]

Originally Posted by Slurmez

One of the moronic suggestions in the nerf shadows/assassins thread was that the devs need to balance classes around the top players on said class. With that in mind ops/scoundrels would be due more nerfs because the best Ops/Scoundrels are still the scariest things in game.

 

(I get that they are the exception not the rule, my point was others dont, if your class is underperfoming as a whole they will eventually get relevant buffs)

 

This is what is wrong with the "buff ops/scoundrels" argument.

 

You simply can't be bothered to get better at the class, despite the room for improvement being there, and the benefits of improvement being obvious.

 

Instead you'll just whine about what other players can do that you can't (despite those players having devoted the time and effort to being capable that you haven't) and scream for buffs for you and nerfs for others when simply playing and getting better would solve your problems.

[Izola]

OP here....

 

My intent was not to suggest a BUFF to Ops/scoundrels But to say that they have little to ZERO Utility as a class. Flashbang is the only STANDOUT in thier utility abilities. Everything else another class can bring to the table PLUS much much more.

 

I didn't mean for this to turn into a QQ thread about the BURST of a BURST class.

 

As of yet in this long thread NO ONE has come foward to answer the eimple question asked in my first statement...

 

ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, Why would I take a scoundrel into an 8 man rated WZ when 5 slots are already filled by 3 classes...Sage heal * 2 (For the pull) and Sent * 1 and Tanks * 2 (for enemy pulls/leaps/gaurd/FC/taunts/AOE snares/aoe slows). this leaves me with 3 slots...

 

Do you really think a Scoundrel is going to be one of them when I'm yet to even add a range DPS?

Edited March 27, 2012 by Izola

[Celebrus]

OP here....

 

My intent was not to suggest a BUFF to Ops/scoundrels But to say that they have little to ZERO Utility as a class. Flashbang is the only STANDOUT in thier utility abilities. Everything else another class can bring to the table PLUS much much more.

 

I didn't mean for this to turn into a QQ thread about the BURST of a BURST class.

 

As of yet in this long thread NO ONE has come foward to answer the eimple question asked in my first statement...

 

ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, Why would I take a scoundrel into an 8 man rated WZ when 5 slots are already filled by 3 classes...Sage heal * 2 (For the pull) and Sent * 1 and Tanks * 2 (for enemy pulls/leaps/gaurd/FC/taunts/AOE snares/aoe slows). this leaves me with 3 slots...

 

Do you really think a Scoundrel is going to be one of them when I'm yet to even add a range DPS?

 

Heres my simple answer to this simple question: Because they have great burst dps, very good control, and can lock down a single player for virtually the duration of a match if they choose to.

 

The only other class in the game that has as little utility and competitive viability as ops is snipers, which should be helped by the healing debuff they will provide in the next patch. Operatives will have their place in rated play, it just wont be carrying the hutt ball, get used to it.

 

I don't know what server you play on, but unless you're on zakkeg beast or the fatman, there simply wont be enough people around to fill rated groups without at least *CONSIDERING* operatives/scoundrels. You wont have the luxury of simply saying "lol opz? I can haz better deepz from a sorc lawl go away".

 

You'll find a group, don't be so worried.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Celebrus

[vimm]

Honestly, the majority of the complaints is coming from Operatives/Scoundrels since the announcement of 1.2

 

Also, why are people talking about WoW rogues? lol.

[Ryotknife]

Wow, you are blowing my mind right now.

 

You mean you actually think that the game should be balanced around players who can't bother to learn how to play their class?

 

ehh, this is kinda shaky ground. im going to use wow as an example.

 

there were two common schools of thought as to what data to use to balance classes. some people wanted to use the top 10 teams on each battlegroup (i think it ends up being like 100 teams total) to balance around. another group wanted to balance around people in the gladiator range (top 100 or so teams on each battlegroup, think it might have actually been mroe than 100).

 

now, the vast majority of people would be happy with being a gladiator, as it was something to brag about. the thing is, just as the pvp metagame changes between a scrub player and a good player, so to does it change between gladiator and the top 10 teams.

 

let us be honest here, we are talking about people whose skill levels are good enough to let them make a living off of playing video games. i highly doubt anyone on these forums, myself included, has the potential to be that good. balancing around a bracket that the vast majority has no hope of ever seeing, in my mind, is not a good idea. add to this the fact that technically its a smaller sample pool.

 

of course, in this game we have no data to use, not even a combat log.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Ryotknife

[Ryotknife]

OP here....

 

My intent was not to suggest a BUFF to Ops/scoundrels But to say that they have little to ZERO Utility as a class. Flashbang is the only STANDOUT in thier utility abilities. Everything else another class can bring to the table PLUS much much more.

 

I didn't mean for this to turn into a QQ thread about the BURST of a BURST class.

 

As of yet in this long thread NO ONE has come foward to answer the eimple question asked in my first statement...

 

ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, Why would I take a scoundrel into an 8 man rated WZ when 5 slots are already filled by 3 classes...Sage heal * 2 (For the pull) and Sent * 1 and Tanks * 2 (for enemy pulls/leaps/gaurd/FC/taunts/AOE snares/aoe slows). this leaves me with 3 slots...

 

Do you really think a Scoundrel is going to be one of them when I'm yet to even add a range DPS?

 

in huttball? ill agree that there i little to no reason to take an op

 

in civil war and void star, however, ops are one of the best classes. you would be a fool to pass them up. even better if he is paired with an assassin!

 

the thing is, you are concentrating on one specific WZ while turning a blind eye to how powerful your class is in the other two. this is EXTREMELY disingenuous to the point where it shows blatant disregard for overall pvp balance.

 

now, if you want your class to be better in huttball while making them weaker in voidstar and civil war, i would be all ears. hell, ill even silently applaud your integrity.

 

and keep in mind, you are not the only class that is overshadowed by assassins.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Ryotknife

[Celebrus]

let us be honest here, we are talking about people whose skill levels are good enough to let them make a living off of playing video games.

 

No.

 

You might be talking about that.

 

I'm talking about the guy that PvPs in his off-time when he's not raiding, but he actually knows how to play his class, and dominates because of it.

 

There are plenty of videos on youtube of operatives/scoundrels beasting their way to the top damage with 0 deaths. I see BM operatives and scoundrels on my server regularly making top/near top damage with next to no deaths and plenty of contribution to objectives.

 

It simply doesn't take a player on "that next level" that you insist on describing to make this class successful. Sorry.

 

Refer to the people that portrayed Powerr as an example of "what the average sin/shadow is capable of" if you want ridiculous comparisons.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Celebrus

[Izola]

I don't know what server you play on, but unless you're on zakkeg beast or the fatman, there simply wont be enough people around to fill rated groups without at least *CONSIDERING* operatives/scoundrels. You wont have the luxury of simply saying "lol opz? I can haz better deepz from a sorc lawl go away".

 

You'll find a group, don't be so worried.

 

Fatman, And I don't play a scoundrel...I play shadow.

 

The post is about how I feel this class A MELEE CLASS has zero gap closers and almost zero utility.

[Redmarx]

No reason to take a melee operative anywhere.

 

You can replace them with other melee and get either frenzy buffs or guard/taunts. DPS ops really cannot off-heal in a competitive PVP situation, and lack heal debuff/fast interrupts/gapcloser etc to contribute in longer matches.

 

Take a marauder instead. We are just many times better.

 

If you really want a stealther, take a tank assassin. Adds another guard and some AOE snaring, as well as better mobility and better sustainability out of stealth.

 

Done.

 

Good DPS operative players would simply do better playing another class in 1.2 for rated.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Redmarx

[xserchux]

Yeah it's true we lack any sort of pull, gap closer you name it, but do knock backs effect you that much? Maybe it's the 100's upon 100's of matches played but you can re-position yourself to advoid this. Sure they will push you off every once in awhile but just try it. Next time open on a sorc and as soon as debilitate is wearing off position yourself and jump when they go to knock you back. It works wonders :-p

 

Aww come on guy!!! jump was a well kept secret ....

[bobamech]

With all due respect, I think it's moronic of you to think that's moronic. Why would you balance the game around scrubs? It would just make the top players even more powerful to the point where they are (even more) unstoppable.

 

One of the moronic suggestions in the nerf shadows/assassins thread was that the devs need to balance classes around the top players on said class. With that in mind ops/scoundrels would be due more nerfs because the best Ops/Scoundrels are still the scariest things in game.

[Ryotknife]

No.

 

You might be talking about that.

 

I'm talking about the guy that PvPs in his off-time when he's not raiding, but he actually knows how to play his class, and dominates because of it.

 

There are plenty of videos on youtube of operatives/scoundrels beasting their way to the top damage with 0 deaths. I see BM operatives and scoundrels on my server regularly making top/near top damage with next to no deaths and plenty of contribution to objectives.

 

It simply doesn't take a player on "that next level" that you insist on describing to make this class successful. Sorry.

 

well, then i guess we have a difference in opinion of what the top players meant. also, youtube videos....really dont show anything because the video can be editied or more specifically cherry picked unless it shows some sort of exploit. he may have a WZ where he wrecked face, and another 10 WZs where he got wrecked.

 

but okay, you are talking about people, in my example, who would be in the gladiator range. now, i do believe pvp should be balanced around that (whatever it turns out to be in swtor) because it is a reasonable goal for the average person to achieve and it is high enough that most people would be happy with that.