Mercenary AC needs a real interrupt (and other things)- a discussion.

[Boanerges_Mevans]

In light of some of the recent changes on the PTS, and current game experiences of many players, I am compelled to present a well outlined petition to give Mercenaries and their republic Commando counterparts a real interrupt ability.

 

For comparison, let's look at the Sorc/Sage AC and their abilities and utility.

 

Sorc/Sage

CC

Stun

Knock-back

Interrupt

temporary 100% damage reduction

 

Merc/Comm

CC

Stun

Knock-back (2 if talented)

temporary reduction of amount of damage taken

 

Now, we cannot at this time bring damage capability in to this discussion since there is no concrete data available on damage outputs... but there will be soon, and my guess is that damage output is roughly equal, depending on spec/gear/player skill.

 

The simple fact remains that regardless of all the developer talk of class balance, the Sorc/Sage AC's have both more utility AND more survivability and defensive options than the Merc/Comm. While not a huge issue in OPs environments, where another class can interrupt a single target (a boss), the problem comes in smaller group content and in PvP.

 

Even though Merc/Comm have a stun and knockback, those require that the target NOT be immune to those abilities. All bosses are immune to CC/Stun/Knockbacks, to that immediately disqualifies Merc/Comm abilities. Furthermore, the resolve resource in PVP often negates the use of these abilities, and is incredibly problematic when attempting to control or eliminate a healer. Once the resolve bar is full, a healer (or DPS) is able to operate without repercussion, and often leads to an unbalanced combat situation.

 

Now, let's look at some solutions...

1.) Electrodart (and it's counterpart) could have an interrupt option. If the target is immune to stun, then the target is interrupted instead. Problem therein is the lengthy cooldown on the ablity (1min).

 

2.) The talented knockback could knockback regardless of immunity. 100% chance should be 100%. The problem with that is that it is only accessible by one spec, which would drive players to abandon the other spec unless there was a significant benefit in the other tree. Lowering the talent to make it more accessible could alleviate that issue.

 

3.) Give the AC a new ability! Sorc/Sage already have more utilities, as is listed above, so the reply that it would be unbalanced is BS pure and simple.

 

Now, let's briefly address the defensive cooldown abilities...

If the intent was for Merc/Comm AC's to be able to burst down their targets without interrupts, then there is a flaw in class balance with Sorc/Sage in that they can negate all incoming damage for a "short" period of time, in which they can either heal themselves back to 100% or attempt to kill their opponent instead.

 

In my opinion, these shields should be swapped, and the Merc/Comm should (via talents) have a 100% damage reduction. As for the Sorc/Sage, I realize that the healing specs depend on the damage reduction of their shield, and they should have a similar talent that allows them to access the 100% reduction, but it needs to be out of reach of the other specs.

 

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Additional points and arguments are welcome, and I will add to this main post when good points are made. Feedback is greatly appreciated, and support for this cause is even more greatly appreciated.

 

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For those who might say that I may be biased... I have both a Mercenary (Pyrotech) and a Sorcerer (Madness) on live that are level 50 and that I actively play. Although my Merc is my primary character, I am quite familiar with both and enjoy playing both. However I do recognize some inherent imbalance between the two. Additionally, I am a Battlemaster on my Merc, and I enjoy PvP even though it can be frustrating at times due to the class imbalances mentioned herein.

[Obstero]

Here's a suggestion: how about we make the Sorcs and Sages not gods and remove their interrupt? They already have a free snare, an AoE snare, a stun, a mezz, a bubble on a 20s CD (if it's on them) that barely spends any Force, a speed-up, a cleanse, and god knows what else.

[chuixupu]

I think all AC's should have one reliable interrupt. I play a healing Merc. You know how annoying it is trying to kill some quest bosses/elites that heal themselves with no interrupts? Electro Dart and Jet Boost just aren't enough, especially since they just immediately start healing again after jet boost. It's better now that I've got a dps companion geared up well, but still kind of slow.

[JuJu]

"BurdoThePious: Is there a reason why the Commando / Mercenary Advanced Classes do not have an interrupt ability (eg. Mind Snap, Distraction, Force Kick)?

 

Georg Zoeller (Lead Combat Designer): Yes. The lack of an interrupt ability on these Advanced Classes is a purposefully designed weakness in their ability arsenal. At the current time, adding an interrupt to the Commando/Mercenary would increase their combat utility, especially in PvP, beyond what we are comfortable with.

 

That said, this issue is one we’ve re-evaluated with every major patch and will likely continue to revisit in the future. It is not inconceivable that an interrupt may be added to these Advanced Classes in a future update, especially if more PvE content is introduced that relies on a certain number of interrupts being available in a group."

 

Link

[Dastey]

Im just gonna link to a topic I created earlier today that pretty much sums up my opinion:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=376985

 

I do however want to say that I rather want some mobility (some actual use of the jet pack) than an interrupt. I rather want to be able to get away from the action than being able to interrupt

[Boanerges_Mevans]

Thanks for the quote from the QA Juju, I was having trouble finding it again earlier.

 

Despite what Georg said in his response, we have examples of classes that have all that utility and more. So that reasoning is unacceptable to me.

 

Additionally, we also have the example of the quest targets that heal themselves and are very difficult to defeat because as soon as they are knocked back, they just re-cast. I have noticed that as well since I have been working on a BH on the PTS.

 

Regardless of the outcome, the point I am trying to make here is that there is some glaring imbalance among the classes that merits more attention than I feel they are getting.

[Ehlin]

Im just gonna link to a topic I created earlier today that pretty much sums up my opinion:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=376985

 

I do however want to say that I rather want some mobility (some actual use of the jet pack) than an interrupt. I rather want to be able to get away from the action than being able to interrupt

 

I agree completely. I play a bodyguard merc and although having an interrupt would be great, I'd love to be able to actually use my jet pack to fly away quickly and not get rapped by people in pvp who know how to actually use their interrupt. (Just my opinion from a pvp perspective.)

 

Pve though, an interrupt would be great I suppose. Tho even on my sentinel I rarely have a need to use my interrupt in pve. (I don't raid, just a fyi) So I could live without it.

[Dayfax]

You need to add some lines to you comparison about armor and ranged ability.

 

Mercs wear heavy armor and have ranged instants. Giving them a ranged interrupt (and it'd have to be ranged) would turn them into defacto caster killers.

 

Which would make Mercs and Commandos into DKs -- a class that excels at killing casters but is still a free HK to melee.

[Caelrie]

I can't help but notice that you didn't list operatives, and I tend to think it's because the lack of tools on an operative healer ruins your argument and you know it.

[DaraXen]

yes yes!! wtb merc interrupt plx!

[vlincent]

we need somekind of escape, so we can use that jetpack on our back....

[smokeylemons]

an interrupt would be nice but i would prob roll over every caster in this game.

[vlincent]

we do need interupt but i realy need a escape. somekind of a speed buff

[Zannis]

I can't comment on PvP, but an interrupt in PvE is always welcome. I agree that it isn't a big deal in Ops, but it could be useful in small groups.

[hulkweazel]

I can't help but notice that you didn't list operatives, and I tend to think it's because the lack of tools on an operative healer ruins your argument and you know it.

This. EVERY class lacks utility when compared to a Sorc.

[Areaz]

Snipers get immunity to interrupts in cover, entrench which makes them immune to pretty much everything for 15s or however long it lasts, they get a ranged interrupt AND an execute. What is that? They're the defacto anything killer. They're the counter to marauders and once they entrench they can burst down whatever is beating them, cept maybe a sin cause he can vanish and wait it out.

[Ehlin]

we do need interupt but i realy need a escape. somekind of a speed buff

 

I agree, I actually made a post on the suggestion forum about this. Feel free to comment on it with your opinions/suggestions. It would be nice if bioware would pay some attention to things mercenaries/commandos actually need.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=378601

Edited March 25, 2012 by Ehlin

[Boanerges_Mevans]

Dayfax: Armor in TOR isn's the same as it is in other MMO's. Heavy armor has no additional benefit in damage mitigation, and is merely a classification of armor type.

Also, Merc/Comm isn't the only class with ranged instants. Sorcerers have Shock, and another through talents. Saying that giving Merc/Comm an interrupt on top of their current ablitites would make them OP is a joke, because there are already classes in game that have the same utilities.

 

Caelrie: I didn't list operatives because I don't have any personal experience playing them. I hear from other people that they are the most difficult healing classes atm, but cannot say for myself. Perhaps you can enlighten us? Keep in mind that a lot of people are sore about certain op/smugg specs, so you may not have a very sympathetic audience...

 

Hulkweazel: Summed up perfectly... "EVERY class lacks utility when compared to a Sorc."

 

Areaz: Thanks for pointing out the immunity that Sniper/Gunsling have when "entrenched". That is another excellent point on the front of Merc/Comm needing a better defensive cooldown.

[hulkweazel]

Dayfax: Armor in TOR isn's the same as it is in other MMO's. Heavy armor has no additional benefit in damage mitigation, and is merely a classification of armor type.

Also, Merc/Comm isn't the only class with ranged instants. Sorcerers have Shock, and another through talents. Saying that giving Merc/Comm an interrupt on top of their current ablitites would make them OP is a joke, because there are already classes in game that have the same utilities.

 

Caelrie: I didn't list operatives because I don't have any personal experience playing them. I hear from other people that they are the most difficult healing classes atm, but cannot say for myself. Perhaps you can enlighten us? Keep in mind that a lot of people are sore about certain op/smugg specs, so you may not have a very sympathetic audience...

 

Hulkweazel: Summed up perfectly... "EVERY class lacks utility when compared to a Sorc."

 

Areaz: Thanks for pointing out the immunity that Sniper/Gunsling have when "entrenched". That is another excellent point on the front of Merc/Comm needing a better defensive cooldown.

Ops are one of the easiest classes to kill as their defensive abilities are pretty terrible. Evasion does virtually nothing (Makes them immune to normal attacks and Sniper attacks), Shield Probe is just a weaker version of Sorc bubble that can only be used on self, two stuns (One 4 second, the other breaks on damage) and Cloaking Screen (Combat stealth) which is on a 3 minute timer.

 

Ops healers are a little harder to heal because we can spam HoTs and at 30% hp we can spam instant heals on ourselves, but any amount of burst or CC will take one down very easily.

 

People saying Ops are hard to kill is just a lie perpetuated by bad players - Ops are just that easy to kill.

[Guioki]

Dayfax: Armor in TOR isn's the same as it is in other MMO's. Heavy armor has no additional benefit in damage mitigation, and is merely a classification of armor type.

Also, Merc/Comm isn't the only class with ranged instants. Sorcerers have Shock, and another through talents. Saying that giving Merc/Comm an interrupt on top of their current ablitites would make them OP is a joke, because there are already classes in game that have the same utilities.

 

So with heavy armor not giving any extra mitigation would you be happy to give it to a sorc? I have 18.8% damage reduction through armor (my only mitigation) vs my flatmates mercs 30% damage reduction through armor. (same tier gear)

 

Your 25% reduced damage for 12 seconds vs my 3.5k reduced damage every 20 seconds. (Getting focused? 25% of 20k hp = 5k health)

 

15% health back over 10 seconds for mercs.

 

3 second stun for sorcs, 4 for mercs.

 

Mercs have armor penetration, sorcs have none (excluding elemental, both classes have that and 90% of it is dispellable)

 

sorcs shortest range knockback, mercs longest.

 

stackable defensive cooldown off tracer missile 2% damage reduction per stack, up to 10% for 15 seconds.

 

Our force regen ability costs health and prevents natural force regen, yours can be talented to give 7% health.

 

Mercs have stealth detect... Sorcs?

 

Comparing sorcs instacasts (shock lol) to mercs (heatseeker 5k hits anyone?) is terribad

 

Mercs are one of the sturdiest classes, that is why they are turrets. Sorcs are fragile as hell, all our utility is based on staying on the edges of fights and not getting hit.

 

Take a look at the 3v3 tourny on Helm of Gurash (sp?) merc/ptech/ptech team won, all teams with sorcs in them got rolled.

 

If you want an interrupt you have to give something up for it, we gave up heavy armor for an interrupt and sprint.

[Dayfax]

Dayfax: Armor in TOR isn's the same as it is in other MMO's. Heavy armor has no additional benefit in damage mitigation, and is merely a classification of armor type.

Also, Merc/Comm isn't the only class with ranged instants. Sorcerers have Shock, and another through talents. Saying that giving Merc/Comm an interrupt on top of their current ablitites would make them OP is a joke, because there are already classes in game that have the same utilities.

 

I know. In Warcraft, for example, plate armor is negligible. Rogues get armor penetration talents and caster damage ignores armor completely. But warriors are still balanced around the fact that they wear plate. I think Mercs are in a similar position.

 

Mercs have multiple ranged abilities with no cast times and no cooldowns. They're only limited by resources. That's the biggest difference between them and your counter examples.

 

They also have a ranged nuke on a short cast with no CD. Again, giving them a ranged interrupt would make ever Sage/Sorc an automatic free HK for them.

 

Don't know about you, but I don't want to be pigeonholed into the "caster killer" role so early in the game.

 

They definitely need more utility in PvE and PvP. I'm not convinced they need an interrupt.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Dayfax

[Boanerges_Mevans]

Hulkweazel: Thanks for the info on operative healing!

 

Guioki: Several of the items you cited are augmented via talents, and rather deep within a tree. Additionally, choosing those talents comes at the cost of more "DPS" oriented skills.

sorcs shortest range knockback, mercs longest.

stackable defensive cooldown off tracer missile 2% damage reduction per stack, up to 10% for 15 seconds.

Our force regen ability costs health and prevents natural force regen, yours can be talented to give 7% health.

Mercs have stealth detect... Sorcs?

All are made that way via talent choices. Additionally, Sorc have a talent that gives them an additional extra instant cast at increased damage. All that said... As you mentioned, I for one am entirely willing to give up something for an interrupt or a better survival CD.

 

 

I suppose we will see how the changes pan out beyond 1.2. I will be the first to admit that Arsenal has very powerful burst, but they give up a lot of mobility for it, and a player that has an interrupt can easily counter an Arsenal specced player. That is precisely why I don't play Arsenal. What most people (possibly myself included) aren't taking in to consideration is the OTHER talent trees. Pyrotech has decent damage output (comparative with arsenal on longer duration fights), but none of additional defensive capabilities of Arsenal. It also doesnt hold a candle to the burst capabilities that Arsenal is capable of.

[Cegenaus]

So with heavy armor not giving any extra mitigation would you be happy to give it to a sorc? I have 18.8% damage reduction through armor (my only mitigation) vs my flatmates mercs 30% damage reduction through armor. (same tier gear)

 

Your 25% reduced damage for 12 seconds vs my 3.5k reduced damage every 20 seconds. (Getting focused? 25% of 20k hp = 5k health)

 

15% health back over 10 seconds for mercs.

 

3 second stun for sorcs, 4 for mercs.

 

Mercs have armor penetration, sorcs have none (excluding elemental, both classes have that and 90% of it is dispellable)

 

sorcs shortest range knockback, mercs longest.

 

stackable defensive cooldown off tracer missile 2% damage reduction per stack, up to 10% for 15 seconds.

 

Our force regen ability costs health and prevents natural force regen, yours can be talented to give 7% health.

 

Mercs have stealth detect... Sorcs?

 

Comparing sorcs instacasts (shock lol) to mercs (heatseeker 5k hits anyone?) is terribad

 

Mercs are one of the sturdiest classes, that is why they are turrets. Sorcs are fragile as hell, all our utility is based on staying on the edges of fights and not getting hit.

 

Take a look at the 3v3 tourny on Helm of Gurash (sp?) merc/ptech/ptech team won, all teams with sorcs in them got rolled.

 

If you want an interrupt you have to give something up for it, we gave up heavy armor for an interrupt and sprint.

 

15% over 10 seconds is not a lot, my rakata medpack heals me for more. you have a bigger resource pool so you can actually use your heals in combat, we cannot

 

sorcs stun is 4 seconds, it also does damage and mercs doesnt

 

sorcs have elemental damage that cannot be purged by mercs

 

sorcs can talent their knockback to root, mercs only snares if talented

 

sorcs have an incombat speed boost to negate damage entirely

 

sorcs have a bubble that can be kept up semi permanently to negate some of the ops burst. they can also force run away after stunlock. mercs can do neither

 

mercs may have more insta casts (depending on spec) but sorcs have more snares, coupled with a bubble and force run they can get away indefinitely

 

mercs are made to be sturdy cause we have no escape mechanisms. let me ask you this though: what negates more damage, heavy armor + damage reduction buff or being out of range due to multiple snares, force run, talented knockback aoe root, and/or talented bubble aoe stun? you get an interrupt too fyi

[Achyuta]

Im just gonna link to a topic I created earlier today that pretty much sums up my opinion:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=376985

 

I do however want to say that I rather want some mobility (some actual use of the jet pack) than an interrupt. I rather want to be able to get away from the action than being able to interrupt

 

If you want mobility, go Pyro.

[ekwalizer]

I can't help but notice that you didn't list operatives, and I tend to think it's because the lack of tools on an operative healer ruins your argument and you know it.

 

lol, I seriously lost my drink on this one.

 

Since I have an Op and Merc, let's compare:

 

Op:

1. Stun

2. In-Combat Mez

3. Out of combat Mez

4. Snare

5. droid only Mez

6. True Interrupt

 

Merc:

1. stun

2. knockback

2a. 2nd KB - only if talented Arsenal

3. Mez