When can we expect to see a nerf of the Hybrid Sin/Shadow?

[exphryl]

You tankasins, you crack me up with your defense tactics.

[Astarica]

Both marauder and tank assasin (20+ points in tanking in dps gear) are competing for best class in the game.

 

Marauders will get nerfed, ... eventually, But tank assassins will not. Thing is every tank class can do it, spec tank and use dps gear, however due to the nature of the class cooldowns it is way more effective on assassins.

 

Although there are balance issues (i.e. Darkness tree is just very strong), you could have the penalty on Dark Charge be 100% and it wouldn't matter much because the penalty only applies to melee attack but Darkness rotation uses exclusively Force attacks with the exception of Assassinate.

 

Force Shroud is an incredibly powerful cooldown. The only class that can beat it is Marauder and that's if they use two CDs (Undying Rage and Force Camo). Even if you just use it whenever it's up with no concern to whether you're being focus fired or even attacked, the math works out to be close to 11% damage reduction over time (5 seconds of immunity every 45 seconds) and likely a bit more than that since it also removes all kinds of nasty stuff that may linger on you (Tracer Missile stacks, Marauder dots, whatever).

 

I'm not sure why Juggernauts are even a problem. The armor stops their Smash just fine. There's absolutely no reason to save Force Shroud against a class that rarely gives you problem. Maybe sometimes they get lucky and kill you in a big crit but being overpowered doesn't mean you never lose a fight. I find it funny most people complain about Force Shroud, which is correct because it is extremely powerful, but in the wrong way because they assume an Assassin will actually use Force Shroud on their weak attacks. For example if you get knocked down by an Operative with Hidden Strike, using Force Shroud pretty much guaranteeds you'll win. But a lot of Assassins don't do this, because an Operative is not a significant threat to warrant wasting Force Shroud. Most of the time you can simply tough out the backstabs and kill the Operative anyway and save the Shroud for something more dangerous, like 5 stacks of Tracer Missile or Marauder dots.

[ShadowOfVey]

Although there are balance issues (i.e. Darkness tree is just very strong), you could have the penalty on Dark Charge be 100% and it wouldn't matter much because the penalty only applies to melee attack but Darkness rotation uses exclusively Force attacks with the exception of Assassinate.

 

Force Shroud is an incredibly powerful cooldown. The only class that can beat it is Marauder and that's if they use two CDs (Undying Rage and Force Camo). Even if you just use it whenever it's up with no concern to whether you're being focus fired or even attacked, the math works out to be close to 11% damage reduction over time (5 seconds of immunity every 45 seconds) and likely a bit more than that since it also removes all kinds of nasty stuff that may linger on you (Tracer Missile stacks, Marauder dots, whatever).

 

I'm not sure why Juggernauts are even a problem. The armor stops their Smash just fine. There's absolutely no reason to save Force Shroud against a class that rarely gives you problem. Maybe sometimes they get lucky and kill you in a big crit but being overpowered doesn't mean you never lose a fight. I find it funny most people complain about Force Shroud, which is correct because it is extremely powerful, but in the wrong way because they assume an Assassin will actually use Force Shroud on their weak attacks. For example if you get knocked down by an Operative with Hidden Strike, using Force Shroud pretty much guaranteeds you'll win. But a lot of Assassins don't do this, because an Operative is not a significant threat to warrant wasting Force Shroud. Most of the time you can simply tough out the backstabs and kill the Operative anyway and save the Shroud for something more dangerous, like 5 stacks of Tracer Missile or Marauder dots.

 

I don't disagree with what you said but it made me laugh at the end anyway.

 

"Operatives: Not worth wasting a 45 second cooldown on".

 

The class needs handicap stickers on their chest armor.

[Astarica]

I don't disagree with what you said but it made me laugh at the end anyway.

 

"Operatives: Not worth wasting a 45 second cooldown on".

 

The class needs handicap stickers on their chest armor.

 

Operative is a huge mismatch against Darkness Assassin. Even before they were nerfed, if you CC break the knockdown on Hidden Strike and then Force Shroud, you'll still usually win just because every attack they have bounces off you when Force Shroud is up. Yes this applies to Sorc too but at least Sorc can try to run away with Force Speed when you do that instead of just die.

 

Of course sometimes I get too overconfident and do die to an Operative because I never used Force Shroud, but again overpowered doesn't mean you never lose. The fact that I don't need to use a cooldown that pretty much guaraneteeds victory says a lot about how badly mismatched this particular fight is.

[Rotm]

Something that needs to be channeled for 3 seconds is NOT burst. It's sustained damage.

 

no spamming 1k damage no cd attacks between cooldowns is sustained damage. Popping buffs and dealing 10k in 3 seconds is burst regardless of whether its a channel+insta nuke, or instants, or from two 1.5 sec cast and an instant.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Rotm

[Ryotknife]

Something that needs to be channeled for 3 seconds is NOT burst. It's sustained damage.

 

actually burst is a large spike in damage that can not be sustained over a long period of time, the method of how this is delivered is irrelevant.

[Smashbrother]

So....

 

Tanks are only "balanced" if they use full tank specs while running in TANK GEAR in PvP?

 

hokay, lets run with this for a sec.

So your idea of balanced is tanks having:

 

Crap damage instead of "ok" damage

Crap survivability considering the "tank" stats are worthless in PvP vs Crap survivability. Nothing changes here. Yeah, great tradeoff.

 

Hmm, why would anyone ever play that again?

 

Tank spec should give you crap damage...Guardians and vanguards tank spec do crap damage. Being tank spec means you should be trading dps for more surv/utility. This is true for the guardian and vanguard, but not for shadow. Shadow tanks maintain the nearly the same dps as dps classes, while having more surv and utility. This is unfair. Hence shadow tanks need a nerf.

[Northwynde]

So now people are complaining because a tank is wearing DPS gear. That they should only be allowed to wear defensive gear? Lol wow. You guys have taken whining to a whole new level of crazy. As I said before. That is MMO Basics 101. Tanks get DPS gear to help give them some boost to DPS while DPSers use defensive gear to help get some mitigation to the damage. It's common sense to find a middle ground instead of trying to go overboard by trying to beef up something that is already sufficient.

 

I think its pretty safe to say that in this game dps are not wearing defensive gear, they are taking talents that may boost survivability, but definately not usng gear with defensive stats. There really isn't much of a middle ground to be found in this regard.

[Smashbrother]

So now people are complaining because a tank is wearing DPS gear. That they should only be allowed to wear defensive gear? Lol wow. You guys have taken whining to a whole new level of crazy. As I said before. That is MMO Basics 101. Tanks get DPS gear to help give them some boost to DPS while DPSers use defensive gear to help get some mitigation to the damage. It's common sense to find a middle ground instead of trying to go overboard by trying to beef up something that is already sufficient.

 

People are complaining about 1 out of the 3 tank classes being able to wear dps gear and doing almost as much dps as dps classes, while still maintaining the extra surv/utility from being tank spec. I have no problems with tank specs wearing dps gear, but I do have a problem when they do nearly as much dps as dps specs.

 

Also, no dps ever wears tank gear in this game. Tank stats are useless.

[Darth_Acherus]

People are complaining about 1 out of the 3 tank classes being able to wear dps gear and doing almost as much dps as dps classes, while still maintaining the extra surv/utility from being tank spec. I have no problems with tank specs wearing dps gear, but I do have a problem when they do nearly as much dps as dps specs.

 

Also, no dps ever wears tank gear in this game. Tank stats are useless.

 

What spec are we suppose to play then?

[Smashbrother]

What spec are we suppose to play then?

 

Play the tank spec because it is the best right now. I don't have a problem with people playing this spec since it's the best for shadows, but I have a problem with it being OP.

 

I'll assume you've played against guardians that are spec for those 4k-5k sweep bombs. Now imagine if those same guardians had almost as much damage, but twice the surv they do currently, and more utility. I doubt you'd be ok with that.

 

Being tank spec should mean having to sacrifice dps for surv/utility, and being dps spec should mean sacrificing utlity/surv for dps. No one should have tons of both (this includes sents).

Edited March 26, 2012 by Smashbrother

[Synacus]

What spec are we suppose to play then?

 

This is the real question.AND why we were not touched.Our other specs are trash for pvp.They are faced with a problem when it comes to our two classes.

 

Buff the other specs so ppl will just be stun locked to death like Ops were doing post nerf.OR let us play the tank spec where ppl get to fight back and see what they are fighting.

 

Thats the ONLY two things they can do with a class that has stealth.

 

So pick which one you want?Stunlocked stealth killed or tank speced atleast fighting the guy till maybe another comes to help you.

 

Also tank sins can't kill healers , well let me change that we can't kill anything but bad healers.

[fungihoujo]

Go to my videos.

 

 

27/0/14

31/0/10

 

Those specs with DPS gear.

 

... how is a nearly pure and a pure build a hybrid exactly? What do you want them to do, nerf sin dps gear?

 

Sides, pay attention to how they nerf hybrids around here- they take out key abilities while doing zilch to improve pure builds. Chances are they'll just take out your biggest damage ability and say 'fixed!'.

[Smashbrother]

This is the real question.AND why we were not touched.Our other specs are trash for pvp.They are faced with a problem when it comes to our two classes.

 

Buff the other specs so ppl will just be stun locked to death like Ops were doing post nerf.OR let us play the tank spec where ppl get to fight back and see what they are fighting.

 

Thats the ONLY two things they can do with a class that has stealth.

 

So pick which one you want?Stunlocked stealth killed or tank speced atleast fighting the guy till maybe another comes to help you.

 

Also tank sins can't kill healers , well let me change that we can't kill anything but bad healers.

 

Those are not the only two choices. BW can slightly buff the other two trees if they're that bad. You guys have good surv baseline anyways with your force cloak, deflection, and resilience.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Smashbrother

[Synacus]

Those are not the only two choices. BW can slightly buff the other two trees if they're that bad.

 

If they buff them you are going get stun locked and killed....I'm not telling you I'm warning you cuz it will happen.

[Smashbrother]

If they buff them you are going get stun locked and killed....I'm not telling you I'm warning you cuz it will happen.

 

I'm not saying buff them to the point of ****** my face while I'm stunned. No class should be able to do what rogues in WoW were able to do (at certain points in WoW's timeline).

 

I'd be ok with force armor being a baseline consular ability if it was nerfed to something with a 1.5 min cd, so it could help your surv and utility in group pvp. Obviously, choosing sage should make force armor equal to what it is currently.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Smashbrother

[Synacus]

I'm not saying buff them to the point of ****** my face while I'm stunned. No class should be able to do what rogues in WoW were able to do (at certain points in WoW's timeline).

 

Thats what they are faced with I'm telling you they have no clue *** to do now with the class.Thats why we didn't get anything.Not a buff not a nerf they just don't know what to do.

 

This is one of those deals where its becareful what you wish for.You know what I mean?

[Darth_Acherus]

I'm not saying buff them to the point of ****** my face while I'm stunned. No class should be able to do what rogues in WoW were able to do (at certain points in WoW's timeline).

 

I'd be ok with force armor being a baseline consular ability if it was nerfed to something with a 1.5 min cd, so it could help your surv and utility in group pvp. Obviously, choosing sage should make force armor equal to what it is currently.

 

Shadow survivability outside of the tank spec is an absolute joke. So there would have to be some massive buffs to justify the class if kinetic was nerfed.

 

I am not interested in playing someone elses punching bag.

[Astarica]

Madness survivality is quite good for a DPS. It's lower than a Marauder but that's clearly the top of the "DPS only" classification at the moment (Darkness can do far more than just DPS). Deception survivality is low. Both spec's survivality is lowered by the fact that Darkness is such a strong spec. Unless you've never played a top Darkness Assassin, you got to have some experience (even if you play Darkness yourself) of a single Darkness Assassin holding a door/turret against 4 guys focus fired until help arrived while somehow killing a guy in the process. As soon as you've a couple of those engagements, you'll be inclined to focus fire on Assassins in general. This means a lot of Madness/Deception guys gets focus fired by 4 guys even though their class's threat value isn't so high that should be killed on sight. It's sort of like if you roll the weaker specs of Marauders, expect to get your face constantly smashed because people will assume you're Annihilation and try to take you out first, even if you're not the Marauder they're looking for.

[Tiresias]

Oh for the love of pie... Is this baseless, fact-free, piece of trash thread still actually going?

 

Check this out right here:

 

Tanks wear DPS gear to PvP in this game because tank stats are nigh-on useless in PvP. It's that simple.

 

All three tanks do respectable damage when geared in DPS gear. The reason you see such high numbers from Kinetic Shadows/Darkness Assassins is because they have two high-damage AoE attacks in their rotation -- their ability to focus a target down is actually somewhat lacking.

 

Shadows/'Sins have the worst passive mitigation of all three tank specs and essentially non-existent defensive cooldowns. They "tank" through self-healing via Tk Throw/Force Lightning. If you are letting a Shadow/'Sin stand there and channel a nearly melee-range 3-second spell at you then you deserve to lose.

 

The best PvP tank in the game at the moment is the Vanguard/Powertech. They can operate across the entire spectrum of ranges which gives them more flexibility when guarding a target. They have the best defensive cooldowns. They have the best static mitigation through armor. They have a "main nuke" that completely ignores armor. They have a charge AND a pull. They are quite possibly one of the best-designed PvE and PvP tanks in any MMO on the market.

[Fallensbane]

Do you realize what balance actually means? It means playing your AC and spec within the designated design parameters. You wearing DPS gear playing as a tank spec so that you can warp what was originally intended is not balanced.

 

Its perfectly within the 'design parameters' if it wasn't the gear would be restricted to only certain trees.

[Ryotknife]

This is the real question.AND why we were not touched.Our other specs are trash for pvp.They are faced with a problem when it comes to our two classes.

 

Buff the other specs so ppl will just be stun locked to death like Ops were doing post nerf.OR let us play the tank spec where ppl get to fight back and see what they are fighting.

 

Thats the ONLY two things they can do with a class that has stealth.

 

 

not true, druids and rogues from wow went through quite a few variations, and both were stealth classes.

 

for example:

 

-you have your stunlock burst rogues (sub rogues from vanilla wow, mutilate rogues from wrath of the lich king

 

- combat rogues, who had great sustained damage and medium-ish burst with CDs, but were incapable of stunlocking someone to death. also was better in prolonged fights.

 

-sub rogues in burning crusade, no burst, high mobility, high utility, medium/low sustained

 

and then you had specs which were a blend of sustained/prolongivity, burst, or utility.

 

now, the druids were special. feral druids, the spec that concentrated on stealth (or more precisely, the form/stance that has stealth) and multiple animal forms (think stances with an entirely different moveset and resource for each stance).

 

(if you are wondering why im spelling this out so much, it is for the benefit of the non-wowers)

 

feral druid dps/stealth form has its damage nearly all back loaded via dots that require a high maintence cost. it would take a feral 10 seconds to setup his damage, but once it was setup he could output a constant pressure.

 

add to this the fact that feral was a role shifter (although this capacity has changed throughout wow). at first, ferals could choose to tank, dps, or heal/utility on the fly....adequately. they were not very good at any singular role, but were passable at it that it can make a difference. the downside is that if they choose their tank form, their dps and utility went down the drain. if they choose their dps form, their survivability and utility go down the drain. if they choose their heal/utility form, their survivability and dps went down the drain.

 

 

and dont get me started on cataclysm feral druids, they were an atrocity. the main reason i quit wow.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Ryotknife

[RobNightfall]

31/0/10 isn't a hybrid spec. Just so you know

[Kasukua]

set up time with the 31/x/10 spec is not so friendly, because ideally you'll want to hit at least 1 energized shock, into 3x stacked harness darkness Forcelightning or what have you. To do that you need to melee, which you means you might need to force slow, you'll definitely want one wither, and with GCD being how it is, that might take 'a while'

 

 

 

what am I saying? Proccing aaround 1500 tics of dmg off forced lightning all while healing myself and shielding everything is real fun. 30 m range too. free, 0 downtime defensive shield spell is nice. still maintaining almost 40% crit...

 

 

doesn't need a nerf tho, imo. I still do more total dmg with madness.

[Vaipyr]

Guardians and vanguards tank spec do crap damage. Being tank spec means you should be trading dps for more surv/utility. This is true for the guardian and vanguard, but not for shadow.

 

Now I know you don't know what you're talking about.

Vanguards are the ****in bomb dude. Vanguard tanks in DPS gear, running a proper pvp shield spec, do INSANE amount of damage with consistant on demand burst that's easy to set up. Not to mention crazy good utility: Stun, aoe stun, charge, snare, pull w/ root, 6 second interrupt. A well played Vanguard wrecks house, period.

 

Guardians when spec'd right have one of the highest burst potential setups in the game with aoe crits for 4k on 4 targets, along with crazy good utility as well. Stun, charge, intervene, spammable aoe snare, push. Probably not as well rounded as vanguards, but still damn sexy when played right.

 

I R Tank. I have been tank in every MMO I've played. I eat, sleep, breathe and **** tanking. Swtor, for any of it's other faults, actually has some of the best tank mechanics in an MMO period.