Would an apology like this by Ray for SWTOR have helped?

[Liberate]

Pure conjecture without hard undisputable evidence which only BioWare has.

 

What AAA mmo offers a free weekend series 3 months after launch?

[Dezzi]

/signed.

 

Better yet, go make your own MMO and show us how uber you are there OP at perfect flawless MMO design. ...... yeah... thought so..

 

I think this part of his letter is important for you, in particular, to understand:

 

I believe passionately that games are an art form, and that the power of our medium flows from our audience, who are deeply involved in how the story unfolds, and who have the uncontested right to provide constructive criticism.

 

The bold is my emphasis. Notice there's no caveat that said criticism must be met with marginalization from other fans.

 

http://blog.bioware.com/2012/03/21/4108/

Edited March 23, 2012 by Dezzi

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

What AAA mmo offers a free weekend series 3 months after launch?

 

The correct answer is: SWTOR

What's my prize??

[Lethality]

I read this recently & I wondered about the massive number of complaints that SWTOR has suffered & then I tried to compare those numbers of complaints to the miniscule number of complaints Mass Effect 3 has had in comparison & i wondered why Ray would jump to defend Mass Effect 3 so quickly yet remain quiet on SWTOR.

 

I mean really, weren't we complaining loudly enough about the quality of the endings of the 8, 8, 8 class stories here in SWTOR too?

 

Do you all think that an apology is entirely unnecessary or not?

 

At the end of the day, TOR is a Lucasarts game an IP. Mass Effect is pure BioWare. I think that might have something to do with it.

[MrDeas]

Yes I think Ray should apologise, and not just for the chronically bad stories... pretty much everything this game represents as a Star Wars game and as an MMO and then for all the bugs and issues they've handed out consistently for months..

 

edit: there are other apologies I'd like also, I can't mention those seeing as freespeech is limited to praise of BW....

 

To bring some perspective. As KOTOR is heralded as the be all and end all game in terms of an RPG and WoW is for MMO's. Both had major bugs at launch. So should BW be apologising for there being bugs and set a trend of always apologising to fans?

 

The fact is that gamers are a bunch of whiners, MMO players are the worth whiners out of gamers. Although they won't admit it, BW knows this. So by sheer numbers it requires less RPG gamers to get an apology than it would an MMO. It's a classic case of crying wolf.

[MrDeas]

What AAA mmo offers a free weekend series 3 months after launch?

 

Maybe one that wants subs? Do you think this was a spur of the moment thing or something that was planned for some time and a "taster" to get more subs?

[Colyer]

That's because Mass Effect 3 is not an MMO firstly. MMO communities are passionate (the most positive word I could think of) and unforgiving. MMOs demand more time, and are thus forgiven for fewer faults, as they become more and more apparent.

 

Secondly because Mass Effect is their current primary title. The one that the company is built around. I really think Mass Effect 3 had as much or more hype surrounding it as SW:TOR without a 30+ year old franchise to hold it up.

 

And thirdly because release on a single player game is more or less final. You can patch, and you can make DLC, but it becomes much harder to adjust what's already been done from a content and gameplay standpoint. MMO developer dialogues have to be more forward facing and hopeful than that of the single player game dev, as when an MMO developer talks of faults of the past, they have to talk of how those faults will be fixed or bettered in the current product. Single player developers have to talk of what they learned from their past faults, as the studios reputation and future game sales, and not ongoing subscription numbers on already released products, is what's at stake in the dialogue.

 

It's really not a comparable situation.

[ryathal]

Games have to move with the times to succeed.

I'm tired of people going " WoW didn't start with an appearance tab or a LFG tool, so why should SWTOR? "

It's like this, mobile phones 10 years ago didn't have apps, decent 3g or 4g internet connections, touchscreen interfaces, the ability to watch tv or make video calls.

Those things were added in later and have become standard features.

Try making a cell phone now with the same launch features as a 10 yr old cell phone, then use that line " but the most popular cell phone 10 yrs ago didn't have those features " and see how many you sell.

 

Just because other games added bits in later, does not give BW a reason, or indeed the right, to launch a game without basically any of the standard features we are used to.

 

I find the fact that they launched this way ( and the attitudes of those defending it ) disgraceful.

 

actually apple does this all the time, though its usually only a couple years behind not quite 10.

[MrDeas]

And before everything else: Stop butchering the lore

 

Apart from a few minor instances when exactly did they do this? I would hardly call it buchering. More tweaking to make it more enjoyable to the player

[MrDeas]

actually apple does this all the time, though its usually only a couple years behind not quite 10.

 

I agree. They add something new and to do that they normally take a few things out. If we look at the Iphone, they added the appstore etc but took out dual facing cameras, any resemblance of a good camera, video calling, many more that I simply can't think of.

 

TOR added spoken dialogue to 8 different class stories, this is a huge leap forwards and equally took things out.

 

Maybe if people didn't rush to end game and enjoyed the journey they'd notice this.

[ryathal]

Also, since when does WoW have Advanced Classes?

wow doesn't need advanced classes, they have well defined classes that mostly have 3 well defined specs

Since when do they have anything even remotely resembling the Legacy System?

heirloom gear, guild lvl/rep bonuses, they actually give everyone the customization options so anyone and everyone can make the character they want from the start, not make a throwaay 50

Since when do they have character-level story driven content?

wow actually has a ton of story if you bother to read even a fraction of the quests

Since when was WoW fully voice acted?

blizzard cares about my spacebar, they know i don't want to hear how random commanders squad was killed by random group of enemies several times every zone

I can keep going here if you want me to.

 

Also, you know that nice shiny new system that WoW introduced called Transmogrify? Blizz never cared about character customization (players had been barking up that tree for years now) until SWTOR showed that they did, upon which Blizz rushed out the feature (which is and feels like a half-baked version of what SWTOR does).

 

So yes, please kindly just go back to playing WoW if you don't like SWTOR and stop wasting our time with such uneducated nonsense.

 

see red

[Wardword]

The game is doing fine there are no major issues that would require any kind of apologies from the dev's.

 

The only complaining I have seen is on the general forums here. The class forums is all good constructive discussions.

 

And seeing as the forums only represent about 5% of the player base, and the ones complaining are only about 1% of that, You can see my point.

 

You must be workin for them LOL this game is utter fail, and it reflects in biowares stock being down 50% since launch, investors are pissed. I hope they go bankrupt, I'll NEVER buy an EA or Bioware product again...

[Darka]

Apart from a few minor instances when exactly did they do this? I would hardly call it buchering. More tweaking to make it more enjoyable to the player

 

Plus all lore aspects need to be approved by LA, they have specific position for this to work with Bioware.

[quarlo]

Does Bioware need to apologize for ME3. Sure they do. What choices you made in the over the course of three games were completly immaterial to the ending of the series.

 

Does Bioware need to apologize for SWTOR. NO. (And this is from a person who's account is going to expire in hours). Sure is possible that the games population is growing, but Bioware needs to realize that there never had to be a reason for those of us who are leaving (or have left) to do so in the first place.

 

Players who voiced their complaints did so for valid reasons: because they wanted the game that they were promised by Bioware, but didn't receive.

[Azumio]

Entirely unnecessary.

 

I don't know what it is with gamers. We are an entitled bunch, hunh?

 

Much of the games we play these days cross over into 'art'. As such, whoever is telling us the story is an artist, a writer.

 

It's their game, their story, their baby. If you buy a book and don't like it after 20 pages, I 'really' hope you stop reading it, especially if you are fully aware that the topic, style, story, whatever of the book isn't going to change before the end.

 

And as far as Mass Effect 3, I don't know the ending, I'm still playing ME2, so I don't want to read any spoilers. I was 'hoping' to wait a year to buy ME3 so I could get it for like 20 bucks from Steam and play it then, but now I'm fearful that I'll have to buy it now just to get a copy of it with the originally intended artists' ending, before they caved to all the most amazing bunch of whiners ever.

 

I'd like to see some demographics, is it gamers, or is it mostly American gamers? I gotta be honest, I bet it's the latter. Just my gut. We're spoiled, we don't do anything anymore, we're entitled...ugh.

 

Asteroid...please come now...let the bees have a stab at it. We failed heinously.

 

I'm Canadian and thought the Mass Effect 3 ending was god awful. There is ample evidence as to way out there via videos (Youtube), Text (Forums) and self-realisation (Play it yourself).

 

It isn't just a bad ending. It's a bad ending full of nonsensical plot-holes upon plot-holes. It doesn't bring closure to the series, or it's fans. It just ends. Full of the aforementioned plot-holes, and huge gapping black-holes of missed information.

 

It single-handedly ruined the franchise. You see how Biodrones act on this forum. They sell their mother on the blackmarket if it meant defending Bioware. But even they admit that ending was garbage.

 

There is also more than enough proof out there that it was a last minute addition (The real ending, and story were scrapped a long-time ago. Written by Drew. This new ending was written by one person and looked up by Casey Hudson. Not a team. Just 2 people.). From stock-photos and backgrounds, to lazy lore-destruction, to horrible character destruction etc.

 

So no, it's not just American's (unless you mean North Americans, and even then, no) it's fans. Mass Effect/Bioware fans. We aren't happy because it's a subpar product that is reminiscent of what EA has done to other companies.

[EvilCoatrack]

Personally I am tired of their "we know better attitude". This is your first AAA mmo, it will be your last if you don't listen to your fans.

 

The problem here is that fans often don't know what they want.

 

And by "often" I mean "almost all the time."

 

Most of the time fans are calling for instant gratification. Then later they complain about having nothing to do in the game because they already have all the gear/money/mounts they want.

 

When it comes to bugs, they need to listen to their playtesters more. When it comes to content creation, it's better to look at their metrics to see what people are doing in game. Only after they've payed a lot of attention to that should they go to the forums and check out what Random Guy DEMANDS be put in their MMO.

[Yakito]

/signed.

 

Better yet, go make your own MMO and show us how uber you are there OP at perfect flawless MMO design. ...... yeah... thought so..

 

Sure! Just give me 100 million and a team of programmers.

Just not the ones working on Warhammer, I beg you... and I'll make you an awesome game.

[Lord_Karsk]

Yeah i want an apology for the ending on the trooper story.Of all the class stories this one have to be the worst one.

[Oldgrimm]

No apology needed, they only have to do better... much better.

[SageH]

I read this recently & I wondered about the massive number of complaints that SWTOR has suffered & then I tried to compare those numbers of complaints to the miniscule number of complaints Mass Effect 3 has had in comparison & i wondered why Ray would jump to defend Mass Effect 3 so quickly yet remain quiet on SWTOR.

 

I mean really, weren't we complaining loudly enough about the quality of the endings of the 8, 8, 8 class stories here in SWTOR too?

 

Do you all think that an apology is entirely unnecessary or not?

 

Video games by many are considered an art, and art doesn't get redone simply because some don't like it. In fact, it's almost insulting to try and bully an artist into changing one of his works simply because you aren't a fan of one aspect of it. You buy it if you like it, you don't if you don't. Similarly, that's how damn near every product works, except when it's defective. Not liking a specific part of a story however, isn't a defect it's a preference issue and one that shouldn't be addressed lightly, even if at all. Art has always been, and always will be very subjective.

 

So no, I do not believe BW should apologize for any story related content within SWTOR. Personally, I don't think ME3's ending should be changed and I'm not even a fan of it. The reason? No matter what they do it won't please everyone and will still continue to upset a decent portion of the vocal minority and for those that did like the ending they will potentially upset those customers, in the end it's a lose/lose for BW.

Edited March 23, 2012 by SageH

[Roechacca]

I think Lucas Arts should apologies for shutting down SWG so we had to play this if we still wanted a Star Wars MMO. That's always been their attitude. They make it, if you don't like it. too bad. I bet Bioware has been held hostage by Lucas Arts. They probably had to sign their corporate lives away like Sony just to get rights on the Star Wars name. I think Lucas should apologies for Jar Jar while were on a a apology kick. He should also apologies for Han not shooting first. His X Wife got sick of constant denial and elitist attitude. Why should we be different? Damn you Lucas for destroying your best work and making Us watch!

 

 

[CorellianWannabe]

Video games by many are considered an art, and art doesn't get redone simply because some don't like it. In fact, it's almost insulting to try and bully an artist into changing one of his works simply because you aren't a fan of one aspect of it. You buy it if you like it, you don't if you don't. Similarly, that's how damn near every product works, except when it's defective. Not liking a specific part of a story however, isn't a defect it's a preference issue and one that shouldn't be addressed lightly, even if at all. Art has always been, and always will be very subjective.

 

So no, I do not believe BW should apologize for any story related content within SWTOR. Personally, I don't think ME3's ending should be changed and I'm not even a fan of it. The reason? No matter what they do it won't please everyone and will still continue to upset a decent portion of the vocal minority and for those that did like the ending they will potentially upset those customers, in the end it's a lose/lose for BW.

 

So it's ok for Spielberg to replace the guns in ET with walkie-talkies since it better represents his vision?

 

 

So it would be ok for SWTOR to end every class story with 'the galaxy falls to the enemy, thanks for playing'? I mean you can always raid and pvp afterward, right?

 

Mass Effect 3's ending makes no sense in-game (Why was Shepard able to stop Sovereign given what resides in the Citadel? Why was the reason for the Reapers such a logic failure?) and out-of-game (Why invalidate all the hours played in the trilogy in such a manner? Why render all decisions effectively meaningless?).

 

Art is subjective, but art created to sell to the masses has to appeal to those masses. So Bioware can act like artistes whose work can't be understood by those thousands of philistines that paid the salaries of those artistes, but those same philistines can respond by refusing to buy any more art and leaving the creators as true starving artists.

[Roechacca]

So it's ok for Spielberg to replace the guns in ET with walkie-talkies since it better represents his vision?

 

 

So it would be ok for SWTOR to end every class story with 'the galaxy falls to the enemy, thanks for playing'? I mean you can always raid and pvp afterward, right?

 

Mass Effect 3's ending makes no sense in-game (Why was Shepard able to stop Sovereign given what resides in the Citadel? Why was the reason for the Reapers such a logic failure?) and out-of-game (Why invalidate all the hours played in the trilogy in such a manner? Why render all decisions effectively meaningless?).

 

Art is subjective, but art created to sell to the masses has to appeal to those masses. So Bioware can act like artistes whose work can't be understood by those thousands of philistines that paid the salaries of those artistes, but those same philistines can respond by refusing to buy any more art and leaving the creators as true starving artists.

 

 

 

I would like an apology from Spielberg as well.

[ohmslaw]

According to those in the know,(the game dev's and PR types) the population has actually been growing.

 

I think many people still base population on the server status's of light-heavy but don't realize that those levels have changed since launch because they limited how many people it took for a server to show as Heavy in the beginning in an effort to get people to spread out more and join the newer servers as they opened them. Then as things evened out they raised that limit. SO a server that was showing as Heavy/Full two weeks after launch and is now showing as standard during peak hours could very well still have the same actual population or even higher.

 

you sir have no clue whatsoever. Have you not logged on lately? There was a time on my server where Imp Fleet had 150-200+ players around the clock. Now there might be 100 prime time. If you are not seeing the drops in population, then you quite simply aren't paying attention, and no amount of logic will break through to the deluded fan boys.

[GRINnBARRETT]

Sadly I probably won't buy ME3 b/c of the ending. I like stories with happy endings.

 

Having said that, I don't see anything wrong with the class stories in SWTOR.