Why remove expertise?

[Sweeet]

Put it this way, unless Bioware changes PVE encounters so that they are scaled down to that of PvP encounters, PvP gear will always be necessary. As the bosses in PVE get tougher and the need for higher DPS increases, the level of gear progresses far beyond the damage that is acceptable to do to another player. It's the same reason they had to introduce the Trauma buff for PvP. Tanks take massive hits that the healers need to be able to heal through, which would make them vastly overpowered in PvP with players minimal health pools.

 

Here's another way of looking at it; if they were to only have one type of gear and it was just balanced around PvP, then simply by definition making sure all things are balanced, all PVE encounters would have to be the same. There is absolutely no way to make different levelled tiers in PVE without separating it from PvP, none at all.

 

This is why Expertise exists and this is also why WoW had to introduce Resilience - for PVE progression. It's ironic though, it's the same people who care so much about PVE progression that get butt-hurt when they get rolled by someone in full PvP gear, yet they wouldn't have their PVE progression if it wasn't for splitting PVE & PVP!

 

You can't have it both ways people. At the end of the day if you want a balanced game with PVE progression, Expertise not only needs to exist, it is absolutely essential.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Sweeet

[Redmarx]

Put it this way, unless Bioware changes PVE encounters so that they are scaled down to that of PvP encounters, PvP gear will always be necessary. As the bosses in PVE get tougher and the need for higher DPS increases, the level of gear progresses far beyond the damage that is acceptable to do to another player. It's the same reason they had to introduce the Trauma buff for PvP. Tanks take massive hits that the healers need to be able to heal through, which would make them vastly overpowered in PvP with players minimal health pools.

 

Here's another way of looking at it; if they were to only have one type of gear and it was just balanced around PvP, then simply by definition making sure all things are balanced, all PVE encounters would have to be the same. There is absolutely no way to make different levelled tiers in PVE without separating it from PvP, none at all.

 

This is why Expertise exists and this is also why WoW had to introduce Resilience - for PVE progression. It's ironic though, it's the same people who care so much about PVE progression that get butt-hurt when they get rolled by someone in full PvP gear, yet they wouldn't have their PVE progression if it wasn't for splitting PVE & PVP!

 

You can't have it both ways people. At the end of the day if you want a balanced game with PVE progression, Expertise not only needs to exist, it is absolutely essential.

 

Can't add much to this.

 

It is well explained and addresses the issue perfectly.

[Truush]

Why not a 2 step fix?

 

Set a hard-cap for stats on PvE gear when used in PvP?

For example, if one item has 100 Strength on it and another has 130 Strength, they would both count as 100 Strength when fighting in PvP. This would eliminate the possibility of high end raiders having a distinct gear advantage in PvP. It allows PvE gameplay to have progression without affecting PvP.

 

Then add an augment slot that can ONLY be used for a PvP augment.

By adding a specific slot only for PvP, you allow Progression in PvP without any effect on PvE.

 

Now both systems have progression that does not impact the other. People are free to pursue whichever system they want, or they can pursue both.

[AidenPryde]

If you remove expertise people in endgame raidgear will mop the floor with people who only pvp.

 

Really sick and tired of people with your fail argument.

 

1. Stop thinking that WoW is the only MMO in the world with PvP.

 

2. Stop thinking that all games WITH PvP actually have a PvP stat.

 

3. Stop thinking that it is impossible to balance PvP and PvE gear timesinks.

 

Answer to 1. Most MMOs have PvP.

 

Answer to 2. Only SWTOR and WoW have a PvP ONLY stat.

a. WoW had a PvP only stat because the game didn't launch with PvP and needed something to balance the two activities.

b. SWTOR has a PvP only stat because Bioware is dumb and think that they have to copy most of WoW's core mechanics.

 

Answer to 3. Both WaR and DAOC did this. Both activities were viable for gear, as it should be in any game that launches with PvP.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Parali
bad quote

[MinguesDew]

As far as Aether's.... charming assertion goes... I find a measure of situational irony in the fact that I took the stance that the vast majority of people who defend Expertise don't even know why they do it.

Good points. There is one thing that I think you may be missing, which is that raiders would lose their minds if PvPers got the same gear.

 

I don't think most PvPers would mind if they removed it at all as long as their gear stood up to raid gear. You'd have to make it the same as raid gear and there-in lies the issue.

Edited March 22, 2012 by MinguesDew

[KorinHyvek]

I could see removing Expertise if PvP gave access to the normal gear, or if PvP gear had same-grade stats that where better optimised for PvP (Instead of a lot of the stats going into expertise).

[Orangerascal]

Really sick and tired of people with your fail argument.

 

1. Stop thinking that WoW is the only MMO in the world with PvP.

 

2. Stop thinking that all games WITH PvP actually have a PvP stat.

 

3. Stop thinking that it is impossible to balance PvP and PvE gear timesinks.

 

Answer to 1. Most MMOs have PvP.

 

Answer to 2. Only SWTOR and WoW have a PvP ONLY stat.

a. WoW had a PvP only stat because the game didn't launch with PvP and needed something to balance the two activities.

b. SWTOR has a PvP only stat because Bioware is dumb and think that they have to copy most of WoW's core mechanics.

 

Answer to 3. Both WaR and DAOC did this. Both activities were viable for gear, as it should be in any game that launches with PvP.

 

Rift has valor. War has renown ranks which causes the same gear disparity as expertise does in swtor. Unless you naively think a RR30 can take out an RR90. Also WAR's gating mechanic because it was pvp centric was to put the 'vigils' (I think) as Tomb unlocks. This makes sense because WaR and Daoc were pvp centric while SWTOR, WAR, and rift are pve centric.

 

The reason expertise exists is simple, bioware does not want you to blaze through their content in one set of gear. If you're not grinding, then they have no game and you don't subscribe. Simple.

 

If people can't understand this basic principle, what can I say they are dumb. Expertise has nothing to do with balance but extending the shelf life of Bioware's product. As a business they would be stupid to remove it. Stop QQ'ing about it already, It's not going to change.

 

Lastly, most people are also too stupid to understand that it's just an attribute ... it could have been called + 400 willpower and + 1000 armor and people would probably not complain. Expertise != gear disparity.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Orangerascal

[Joetwoshots]

You know guys, i thought about the problem for a while. Why shouldnt bolster system lower level 50 geared players stats to match stats of lower level players bolstered to lvl 50 avarage stats(setting base for avarege stat lvl 50 should have, for EVERYONE at that level, even with much better gear-that, OR calculating avarege stat lvl for players present in current game-like we got some awesome geared players in game, and some crappy geared ones, system would draw avarage of their stats to bolster every player to, to make game competitive for everyone)? This way raiding gear wouldnt dominate pvp completely, expertise wouldnt be needed, and pvp would be done more for fun, not for hardcore grinding same 3 maps endlessly.

If im wrong in my logic, please enlighten me.

[Jrovak]

Why not a 2 step fix?

 

Set a hard-cap for stats on PvE gear when used in PvP?

For example, if one item has 100 Strength on it and another has 130 Strength, they would both count as 100 Strength when fighting in PvP. This would eliminate the possibility of high end raiders having a distinct gear advantage in PvP. It allows PvE gameplay to have progression without affecting PvP.

 

Then add an augment slot that can ONLY be used for a PvP augment.

By adding a specific slot only for PvP, you allow Progression in PvP without any effect on PvE.

 

Now both systems have progression that does not impact the other. People are free to pursue whichever system they want, or they can pursue both.

 

what?

why go thru all that trouble PVP gear is so easymode to get..

[Infalliable]

I don't think it should be removed, but it currently makes too much of a difference.

 

From it, you get

 

1.) Bonus damage ~10%

2.) Better Defense ~10%

3.) More healing ~10%

 

Also, expertise only comes on "higher" level 50 PVP gear. So in addition to the three benefits above, gear with expertise automatically already has more damage, more health, more armor, etc.

 

When you combine them, gear makes way too much of a difference in the outcome of L50 PvP. Gear should matter, but its effect is huge. A "max" expertise player absolutely slaughters a player w/o it.

 

Part of it too is that it is absent from the 10-49 bracket, which is fairly competitive. After you get some key skills in your talent tree and trainer, for the most part people are competitive regardless of level. Then you hit L50, and you get slaughtered.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Infalliable

[Arrianlol]

So..without expertise...what would seperate the gear sets? PVE gear already does more damage and has way more hp? Their item budgets are the same....So wouldn't pvp gear and pve gear be identical?

 

WoW introduced a pvp stat in BC because they wanted arenas to have their own reward system and in vanilla, raiders dominated pvp. It's not rocket surgery.

 

I mean, seriously, what would be the difference between pve and pvp gear if there was no expertise? People are already pvping with full pve gear now because they can roll around doing massive damage with 20k health.

 

So IMO this thread is pointless. The people that want expertise removed don't want to grind a full set of pve OR pvp gear....YOU CAN ALREADY PVP IN PVE GEAR.

 

O and the reason they didn't put expertise on lowbie gear is obvious. It's because most people do pvp sparingly or at most moderately while they level..and expertise becomes completely useless the moment that person tries to do some of his class quests! Try THINKING please.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Arrianlol

[AidenPryde]

Rift has valor. War has renown ranks which causes the same gear disparity as expertise does in swtor. Unless you naively think a RR30 can take out an RR90. Also WAR's gating mechanic because it was pvp centric was to put the 'vigils' (I think) as Tomb unlocks. This makes sense because WaR and Daoc were pvp centric while SWTOR, WAR, and rift are pve centric.

 

The reason expertise exists is simple, bioware does not want you to blaze through their content in one set of gear. If you're not grinding, then they have no game and you don't subscribe. Simple.

 

If people can't understand this basic principle, what can I say they are dumb. Expertise has nothing to do with balance but extending the shelf life of their product. As a business they would be stupid to remove it. Stop QQ'ing about it already.

 

Lastly, most people are also too stupid to understand that it's just an attribute ... it could have been called + 400 willpower and + 1000 armor and people would probable not complain. Expertise != gear disparity.

 

This game also has Valor, which is the cap that was put into the game to prevent people from gearing up quickly. They are basically phasing out Valor in 1.2 as the new gear won't have a Valor requirement.

 

Valor is also not a PvP only stat, as it is not ON the gear. Valor is more like a ranking. In PvP this is fine because it is the same as requiring players to be in a certain level of gear before attempting HM Operations.

 

In fact Valor rankings in WaR and Rift were instituted so that players were not blowing through PvP content and getting end game gear faster than their PvE counterparts.

 

Bioware could easily make the Valor grind harder to make the time sinks between PvP and PvE activities roughly the same.

 

But what Bioware is doing is the same thing that a leadiing WoW dev said in a recent blog post was Blizzard's biggest mistake. Instituting a PvP stat and adding Ranked Arenas.

Edited March 22, 2012 by AidenPryde

[Melacon]

So..without expertise...what would seperate the gear sets? PVE gear already does more damage and has way more hp? Their item budgets are the same....So wouldn't pvp gear and pve gear be identical?

 

WoW introduced a pvp stat in BC because they wanted arenas to have their own reward system and in vanilla, raiders dominated pvp. It's not rocket surgery.

 

I mean, seriously, what would be the difference between pve and pvp gear if there was no expertise? People are already pvping with full pve gear now because they can roll around doing massive damage with 20k health.

 

So IMO this thread is pointless. The people that want expertise removed don't want to grind a full set of pve OR pvp gear....YOU CAN ALREADY PVP IN PVE GEAR.

 

Yep, and you can easily pve in pvp gear, even more so in 1.2

[Jrovak]

You know guys, i thought about the problem for a while. Why shouldnt bolster system lower level 50 geared players stats to match stats of lower level players bolstered to lvl 50 avarage stats(setting base for avarege stat lvl 50 should have, for EVERYONE at that level, even with much better gear-that, OR calculating avarege stat lvl for players present in current game-like we got some awesome geared players in game, and some crappy geared ones, system would draw avarage of their stats to bolster every player to, to make game competitive for everyone)? This way raiding gear wouldnt dominate pvp completely, expertise wouldnt be needed, and pvp would be done more for fun, not for hardcore grinding same 3 maps endlessly.

If im wrong in my logic, please enlighten me.

 

I am pissing my pants with laugther this isnt for real..

 

I don't think it should be removed, but it currently makes too much of a difference.

 

From it, you get

 

1.) Bonus damage ~10%

2.) Better Defense ~10%

3.) More healing ~10%

 

Also, expertise only comes on "higher" level 50 PVP gear. So in addition to the three benefits above, gear with expertise automatically already has more damage, more health, more armor, etc.

 

When you combine them, gear makes way too much of a difference in the outcome of L50 PvP. Gear should matter, but its effect is huge. A "max" expertise player absolutely slaughters a player w/o it.

I don't want to come across as abrupt but we not from the same planet..

why are we having an argument about expertise on PvP gear ?

what part of'; its super easy to get in 1.2 cant yu ppl comprehend lol

[Olympic]

Yep, and you can easily pve in pvp gear, even more so in 1.2

 

Its true, I have done all my PvE in PvP gear. People are fooling themselves into thinking you need the uber Rakata PvE gear to complete the PvE content. You don't.

 

That being said, to another question about "how do you separate the gear without the Expertise stat?". Answer: You don't separate the gear. You just have "gear".

[Orangerascal]

This game also has Valor, which is the cap that was put into the game to prevent people from gearing up quickly. They are basically phasing out Valor in 1.2 as the new gear won't have a Valor requirement.

 

Valor is also not a PvP only stat, as it is not ON the gear. Valor is more like a ranking. In PvP this is fine because it is the same as requiring players to be in a certain level of gear before attempting HM Operations.

 

Dont' confuse the RIFT valor (a pvp damage reduction stat), with SWTOR valor (basically another xp bar), you're comparing apples with oranges.

 

Again

 

In fact Valor rankings in WaR and Rift were instituted so that players were not blowing through PvP content and getting end game gear faster than their PvE counterparts.

 

Rift had no pvp content just warzones, like SWTOR. Hence why I mention it's a pve centric game. Renown rankings in WAR provide the same gear disparity people think expertise does. Hence why I mentioned it. The expertise system could be removed and gear disparity would still exist. Except this time it will be in pve gear.

 

Bioware could easily make the Valor grind harder to make the time sinks between PvP and PvE activities roughly the same.

 

But what Bioware is doing is the same thing that a leadiing WoW dev said in a recent blog post was Blizzard's biggest mistake. Instituting a PvP stat and adding Ranked Arenas.

 

Your solution to the 'gear disparity' problem is to make to 'Valor grind harder'. This will only exacerbate it.

 

Again your fundamental misunderstanding of why expertise was implemented or the problem in general is causing a bias towards expertise. Expertise is not the problem. Like I said they could call it +400 willpower and +1000 armor and no one would even notice.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Orangerascal

[Sweeet]

Rift has valor. War has renown ranks which causes the same gear disparity as expertise does in swtor. Unless you naively think a RR30 can take out an RR90. Also WAR's gating mechanic because it was pvp centric was to put the 'vigils' (I think) as Tomb unlocks. This makes sense because WaR and Daoc were pvp centric while SWTOR, WAR, and rift are pve centric.

 

The reason expertise exists is simple, bioware does not want you to blaze through their content in one set of gear. If you're not grinding, then they have no game and you don't subscribe. Simple.

 

If people can't understand this basic principle, what can I say they are dumb. Expertise has nothing to do with balance but extending the shelf life of Bioware's product. As a business they would be stupid to remove it. Stop QQ'ing about it already, It's not going to change.

 

Lastly, most people are also too stupid to understand that it's just an attribute ... it could have been called + 400 willpower and + 1000 armor and people would probable not complain. Expertise != gear disparity.

 

Saying Expertise has nothing to do with balance ironically just makes you look dumb. Extending the games shelf life is a part of it no doubt, but balance is a massive part of it too and if YOU can't see that, well then there's no hope for you.

[Orangerascal]

Saying Expertise has nothing to do with balance ironically just makes you look dumb. Extending the games shelf life is a part of it no doubt, but balance is a massive part of it too and if YOU can't see that, well then there's no hope for you.

 

I've already addressed people like you, but I guess the public education system fails again:

 

 

"Lastly, most people are also too stupid to understand that it's just an attribute ... it could have been called + 400 willpower and + 1000 armor and people would probably not complain. Expertise != gear disparity."

Edited March 22, 2012 by Orangerascal

[Rolzhard]

Expertise is really just a legacy system inherited from other MMO's. Its not really working in this game where its not so hard to progress in either PVP or PVE. All its become is a major pain in the butt that prevents PVP'ers from helping out their fellow guildies in PVE and prevents PVE'ers from effectively participating in PVP. When BW fixes open world PVP its going to become manifest evident how redundant the idea of expertise is.

 

All it ends up being is an obstacle preventing people from playing together. This game needs people to be able to play together.

 

World bosses, open world PVP, objective based PVP solutions really should have everyone on the server participating on an equal basis not one camp or other excluded by some faux divide.

[Sweeet]

I've already addressed people like you:

 

 

"Lastly, most people are also too stupid to understand that it's just an attribute ... it could have been called + 400 willpower and + 1000 armor and people would probably not complain. Expertise != gear disparity."

 

People like me? You mean people who don't appreciate being talked down to by an obnoxious twit with no people skills and who constantly fails to see any other point of view apart from their own?

 

If it had been called "+ 400 willpower and + 1000 armor" then it would be for PVE, those are PVE stats...and then Bioware would have to balance PVE around PVP which defeats the point... The point of Expertise is to allow Bioware to balance PVP and PVE separately... How hard is that to understand?

Edited March 22, 2012 by Sweeet

[Orangerascal]

People like me? You mean people who don't appreciate being talked down to by an obnoxious twit with no people skills and who constantly fails to see any other point of view apart from their own?

 

I'm sure your people skills are superb with gems like:

 

• makes you look dumb
  
• obnoxious twit
  

 

I think you should run for governor.

 

If it had been called "+ 400 willpower and + 1000 armor" then it would be usable PVE, those are PVE stats ....and then Bioware would have to balance that PVE around PVP

 

So you agree expertise is needed? Also In case you didn't notice will power and armor affect with ... so calling them pve stats is misleading.

 

 

. The entire point of Expertise is to allow Bioware to balance PVP and PVE separately... How hard is that to understand?

 

No the real reason for expertise is to extend the shelf life of their product. Why grind 1 set when you can grind 2? Bioware is a business whose goal is simple ... turn a profit.

 

As to 'Expertise is to allow Bioware to balance PVP and PVE separately...', I somewhat agree. So expertise exists:

 

- extend shelf life

- balance pvp

 

Why would people want to remove it again?

 

Also I never said 'Expertise has nothing to do with balance'. Again I blame public schools and their lack of books with a publish date past 1947.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Orangerascal

[Sweeet]

Expertise is really just a legacy system inherited from other MMO's. Its not really working in this game where its not so hard to progress in either PVP or PVE. All its become is a major pain in the butt that prevents PVP'ers from helping out their fellow guildies in PVE and prevents PVE'ers from effectively participating in PVP. When BW fixes open world PVP its going to become manifest evident how redundant the idea of expertise is.

 

All it ends up being is an obstacle preventing people from playing together. This game needs people to be able to play together.

 

World bosses, open world PVP, objective based PVP solutions really should have everyone on the server participating on an equal basis not one camp or other excluded by some faux divide.

 

That's not the case, the general rule of thumb is that you need at least 1300 of your main stat for hard mode operations. I did my first hard mode in full PvP gear and it was a cake walk.

 

If people are telling you you can't participate in PVE because you don't have PVE gear then they clearly don't fully understand how the game works.

[Emencie]

The reason expertise exists is simple, bioware does not want you to blaze through their content in one set of gear. If you're not grinding, then they have no game and you don't subscribe. Simple.

 

If people can't understand this basic principle, what can I say they are dumb. Expertise has nothing to do with balance but extending the shelf life of Bioware's product. As a business they would be stupid to remove it. Stop QQ'ing about it already, It's not going to change.

 

What?

 

That's just... wrong. everything you said in those two paragraphs is just wrong.

 

#1 Expertise exists because resilience exists. plain and simple. Its the same reason Rift has Valor because the developers are copying a mechanic (even if it is bad) from a popular MMO that most of their player base has played.

 

#2 Resilience was created not for a gear grind to keep subs. At the time resilience was introduced(TBC), WoW was already out for over 2.5 years and still growing in subscription numbers. The reason a PvP stat was introduced was to taper the effect of top PvE geared players dominating when the newly created ranked arenas launched. To even the playing field, because top PvE gear was BIS and pure PvPers couldn't compete.

 

#3 Hundreds of MMOs, have had extreme success creating PvP without the use of gear grind. Not to mention PvE gives the "Need" for gear grind even though it is not required for an MMO to be successful.

 

#4 The main draw for PvP is PvP. Even outside MMOs, there are thousands of games that incorporate or are primarily based around PvP that have absolutely no stat or gear improvement grind. The only "grind" is in status, Ladder rankings, and Cosmetics.

 

#5 If players are PvPing for gear upgrades to get gear upgrades so that they can grind more gear upgrades to the point where they feel there is no reason to PvP if there are not more gear upgrades to grind to... Then something is wrong with the system. Bioware realized this and is trying to fix it by making the gear grind short and still a sense of achievement but after that, the only reason to step into PvP will be to defeat other players who will constantly give you a dynamic challenge that you cannot ever experience in PvE.

 

Which is completely what PvP should be.

 

Back to the OP.

 

Expertise is a broken mechanic. and there are already problems with the way its handled. Defensive characters benefit more from it than offensive characters, and those that can heal even more so. Its already getting to a point where Bioware is nerfing the healers to compensate. What happens when expertise is at 20 or 30 percent? Will trauma have to go up to 50%? This is ridiculous, All because the system is bad.

 

There are better ways to deal with the PvE gear threat than a PvP stat. in fact BW was very close to achieving this. They just seemed to stumble at the finish line.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Emencie

[Sweeet]

I'm sure your people skills are superb with gems like:

 

• makes you look dumb
  
• obnoxious twit
  

 

I think you should run for governor.

 

Says the guy calling everyone idiots and dumb from the get go... you forget about that did you?

 

No the real reason for expertise is to extend the shelf life of their product. Why grind 1 set when you can grind 2? Bioware is a business whose goal is simple ... turn a profit.

 

As to 'Expertise is to allow Bioware to balance PVP and PVE separately...', I somewhat agree. So expertise exists:

 

- extend shelf life

- balance pvp

 

Why would people want to remove it again?

 

Hmm so that means you do think Expertise is there to balance the game. If that's the case maybe you should think twice about making statements like "Expertise has nothing to do with balance but extending the shelf life of Bioware's product." Which is the only reason I bothered replying to you in the first place, that and you where calling people dumb whilst making a dumb comment - kind of dumb of you don't you think?

[Sweeet]

Also I never said 'Expertise has nothing to do with balance'. Again I blame public schools and their lack of books with a publish date past 1947.

 

How about you go back and actually read your obnoxious post in which you were labelling everyone as "idiots" and "dumb", you said it clear as day. There was no reading between the lines...