Why remove expertise?

[Morgorth]

Hey there,

I noticed a popular demand in the new feedback-request-thread is "remove expertise". I just wanted to hear arguments for that, and discuss them.

[AetherMcLoud]

If you remove expertise people in endgame raidgear will mop the floor with people who only pvp. Edited March 27, 2012 by Parali
rude

[Kabaal]

I find it a bit silly as well. I used to play AoC and loved the PvP there but one of the biggest things that bugged me was having to do raids in order for my characters to be competitive in PvP. I don't mind leveling up characters but i simply detest any form of PvE at max level, especially raiding. I pay a sub to have fun and not to do things i don't enjoy, work covers that enough for me as it is.

[Tonymitsu]

I posted at length in that thread why it should be removed.

 

Full story here

 

I'll cut and paste snippets here just focusing on reasons for TOR

 

 

Now in SWTOR we have this similar mechanic that feels pointlessly shoe-horned into the game without any real understanding of why it might be needed, if it is needed at all.

 

Currently, Expertise in SWTOR does 3 things:

1) Increase damage done to players

2) Decrease damage taken from players

3) Increase healing done to players

 

So let's break down the problems with the mechanic by itself.

Numbers 1 and 3 on that list are ultimately rendered moot by two opposing players of equal gear. The same damage bonus that you get against a player is negated entirely by that players protection from it. So that effect might as well not even exist. I have a hard time wrapping my brain around this decision, assuming it was intentional. Unlike in WoW, where Resilience makes matches last longer, Expertise serves no real purpose other than to make you completely un-killable by a player who doesn't have expertise, which means that PvP boils down almost entirely to gear.

 

Number 2 is the only effect that really makes a difference.

 

...And it is terrible.

 

It's a forgone conclusion that gear will eventually scale upwards in this game. Unless there is an entirely different formula in place for the healing bonus, or DPS stats on gear are scaled to match it, this means that eventually we will reach a point where no one can kill each other as long as a healer is present. Get it? This means you will HAVE to change the way the stat functions at some point.

 

 

Secondly, the implementation of the stat is quite baffling. SWTOR had an advantage over WoW here, in that they introduced their PvP stat in an expansion several years down the road, while you guys had one planned from the start. With that in mind, what was the logic behind the decision to make Expertise only available to level 50 players? Why wouldn't you put it on all PvP gear? This is even more baffling by the fact that you planned for people to be able to level AND gear extensively in PvP by providing all that extra armor and weapons in the vendors, yet for some reason you omitted Expertise. I mean seriously... why? I can only assume the ramifications for this were made blatantly obvious by the end of the first month when every single person under level 50 was getting slaughtered so badly that you had to put 50's in their own bracket.

The easier solution? Get rid of the stat altogether. Then 50's don't need their own bracket, because we have Bolster. I don't think I words can make it any clearer how much it detrimentally affected PvP than exactly what happened.

 

 

Finally, the entire premise of the stat itself is self-defeating and stupid. It serves only to drive a gigantic wedge firmly between the camp of players that prefer PvP and the ones that prefer PvE, and ensures that virtually no one can cross between them.

 

</snip>...The fact is that a system like the current one forces players to waste time grinding two sets of gear to compete in either system and vehemently discourages, if not outright preventing, someone who prefers one system from even dabbling in the other. I'm all for someone in their PvP-grinded gear filling a last minute raid slot, just as I know many PvPers who would welcome a new challenge from someone who normally raids. Instead, having a PvP stat does the exact opposite.

 

 

 

As far as Aether's.... charming assertion goes... I find a measure of situational irony in the fact that I took the stance that the vast majority of people who defend Expertise don't even know why they do it.

[VoidSpectre]

I posted at length in that thread why it should be removed.

 

Full story here

 

I'll cut and paste snippets here just focusing on reasons for TOR

 

 

Now in SWTOR we have this similar mechanic that feels pointlessly shoe-horned into the game without any real understanding of why it might be needed, if it is needed at all.

 

Currently, Expertise in SWTOR does 3 things:

1) Increase damage done to players

2) Decrease damage taken from players

3) Increase healing done to players

 

So let's break down the problems with the mechanic by itself.

Numbers 1 and 3 on that list are ultimately rendered moot by two opposing players of equal gear. The same damage bonus that you get against a player is negated entirely by that players protection from it. So that effect might as well not even exist. I have a hard time wrapping my brain around this decision, assuming it was intentional. Unlike in WoW, where Resilience makes matches last longer, Expertise serves no real purpose other than to make you completely un-killable by a player who doesn't have expertise, which means that PvP boils down almost entirely to gear.

 

 

because it's not intended for equal skilled PVPers to have notable gear differences it's meant so that PVE gear(with all it's superior other stats) doesn't affect PVE and vice versa. a thing that is very good because there is no way to balance the time-to-aquire of both PVP and PVE

 

it would be more about gear without it making end game raiders gods of PVP

Edited March 22, 2012 by VoidSpectre

[Tonymitsu]

because it's not intended for equal skilled PVPers to have notable gear differences it's meant so that PVE gear(with all it's superior other stats) doesn't affect PVE and vice versa. a thing that is very good because there is no way to balance the time-to-aquire of both PVP and PVE

 

it would be more about gear without it making end game raiders gods of PVP

 

 

Of course there is.

 

You either make them both random drop systems (by awarding a bag upon completing your Daily/Weekly/Whatever PvP mission), or you make them both Acquire-Coupons-To-Give-To-the-Vendor systems (just have all raid bosses drop only various types of commendations). What you don't do is one system for one thing and an entirely different system for another. That's what causes imbalance.

 

 

And the only reason PvE gear has slightly better stats in the first place is because of the dated and inefficient raid encounter design.

 

Like I stated in the post, designing the entire game around PvP, and then providing a PvE buff that increases damage done to NPC's solves both of these problems.

People can PvP and/or PvE in whatever gear they want, you have balanced PvP, and keep the current raid design that Bioware can easily tinker with at any point to adjust difficulty as needed.

[Sabredance]

I find a measure of situational irony in the fact that I took the stance that the vast majority of people who defend Expertise don't even know why they do it.

 

There is a minority of players who enjoy the advantage.

 

I believe the common fear from PvP player is to be forced to do PvE to compete in PvP.

 

If you remove Expertise from War Hero gear it has to be equal to Black Hole gear.

 

That would cut a lot of content as MMOs tend to be about achieving gear/money to have

 

access to content.

 

Not that i am a fan of that grind -i am happy when its over but many people seem to be

 

bored without it.

 

Or do you have a better idea of how endgame PvP gear prevents PvP player to easily

 

beat the endgame PvE content while also preventing PvE player in endgame gear to wipe

 

the floor with all who don´t?

 

 

The only solution i can think of is if you could slot PvE endgame gear just in

 

operations/flashpoints and would reduce it to just a tool to beat higher content while

 

everyone in PvP gets to chose several cosmetic Gladiator suits with the same stats and

 

unlocks cosmetical upgrades on the way.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Sabredance

[Tonymitsu]

There is a minority of players who enjoy the advantage.

 

I believe the common fear from PvP player is to be forced to do PvE to compete in PvP.

 

If you remove Expertise from War Hero gear it has to be equal to Black Hole gear.

 

That would cut a lot of content as MMOs tend to be about achieving gear/money to have access to content.

 

 

I firmly stand by the idea that EA, as a typical greedy corporate entity, is perfectly happy with the players being required to waste time grinding separate gear for PvP and PvE.

 

I just hope they don't expect me not to ***** and call them out over it.

 

Or do you have a btter idea of how endgame PvP gear prevents PvP player to easily beat

 

the endgame PvE content while also preventing PvE player in endgame gear to wipe the

 

floor in warzones?

 

I don't suppose player skill could possibly matter for anything in this day in age?

 

No? Anyone?

 

...Is this thing on?

Edited March 22, 2012 by Tonymitsu

[ALDrinkwater]

Of course there is.

 

You either make them both random drop systems (by awarding a bag upon completing your Daily/Weekly/Whatever PvP mission), or you make them both Acquire-Coupons-To-Give-To-the-Vendor systems (just have all raid bosses drop only various types of commendations). What you don't do is one system for one thing and an entirely different system for another. That's what causes imbalance.

 

 

And the only reason PvE gear has slightly better stats in the first place is because of the dated and inefficient raid encounter design.

 

Like I stated in the post, designing the entire game around PvP, and then providing a PvE buff that increases damage done to NPC's solves both of these problems.

People can PvP and/or PvE in whatever gear they want, you have balanced PvP, and keep the current raid design that Bioware can easily tinker with at any point to adjust difficulty as needed.

 

You basically just described the game i used to play. it was a pvp based game, with a pve content. worked well, WITH NO PVP STAT

[Smashbrother]

Of course there is.

 

You either make them both random drop systems (by awarding a bag upon completing your Daily/Weekly/Whatever PvP mission), or you make them both Acquire-Coupons-To-Give-To-the-Vendor systems (just have all raid bosses drop only various types of commendations). What you don't do is one system for one thing and an entirely different system for another. That's what causes imbalance.

 

 

And the only reason PvE gear has slightly better stats in the first place is because of the dated and inefficient raid encounter design.

 

Like I stated in the post, designing the entire game around PvP, and then providing a PvE buff that increases damage done to NPC's solves both of these problems.

People can PvP and/or PvE in whatever gear they want, you have balanced PvP, and keep the current raid design that Bioware can easily tinker with at any point to adjust difficulty as needed.

 

Except you know, in pvp ppl can lose all day while afk and still get gear. In pve, you actually have to put in some effort to down those raid bosses in order to get gear. There is no way to measure how fast or how much effort it takes, so there isn't any way to balance time to acquire for both equally. But if you make two entirely diff sets, then it doesn't matter if a person can get one set faster than the other.

[RealAeiouy]

Hey there,

I noticed a popular demand in the new feedback-request-thread is "remove expertise". I just wanted to hear arguments for that, and discuss them.

 

Removing expertise is the single dumbest thing they could co as it relates to pvp.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Parali
rude

[Tonymitsu]

Except you know, in pvp ppl can lose all day while afk and still get gear. In pve, you actually have to put in some effort to down those raid bosses in order to get gear. There is no way to measure how fast or how much effort it takes, so there isn't any way to balance time to acquire for both equally. But if you make two entirely diff sets, then it doesn't matter if a person can get one set faster than the other.

 

....

Because repeatedly losing warzones is a great way to finish that Weekly "Win 9 Warzones" mission?

Did you even read what you quoted?

 

 

And in the other case, if you keep throwing yourself at a raid, you are going to kill some things, even if you don't kill everything in there. Personally I don't like rewarding people for losing at PvP either, but they have to do it otherwise most people would just quit the warzone at the first sign of a loss. It's not hard to come up with a similar system for failing at a raid (say the trash drops a couple or three commendations per kill, while bosses drop 10. or 20).

[Orangerascal]

Expertise prevents raiders from dominating warfronts and vice versa, which extends the shelf life of an already lacking swtor end-game content.

 

What they are really complaining about is 'gear disparity' which is a bad thing. Unfortunately 'gear disparity' can't be helped in a game where progression defines your character. If it's not gear, it's levels, or skills, or attributes. You can lower it by giving out 'welfare epics'

Edited March 27, 2012 by Parali
rude

[ademnus]

if the devs remove expertise its proof positive that they cave to the masses. To those who qq about expertise -its not expertise that's killing you on the field, its your lack of skill and cooperation.

 

it also is available to everyone. You don't need an exclusive club pass to get expertise. So if you're convicned its the end-all be-all, go get some. Then you can be unstoppable!!!

Edited March 27, 2012 by Parali
rude

[Morgorth]

@Tonymitsu - Okay you want to have one set of gear for PvP and PvE. As for your drop-system to balance the time: Who says a raid-group is able to beat an encounter and is able to finish their quest?

As for your other point with game mechanics: I don't really see the problem, the benefits of expertise are capped. Yes a player without expertise will be utterly destroyed by someone with it. But that is the point of gearing up, is it not? With patch 1.2 you will be able to buy the champion gear with credits - so the difference between new 50s and old 50s will be smaller, at least in PvP.

Whaa, im way to slow at writing >.<

[Smashbrother]

....

Because repeatedly losing warzones is a great way to finish that Weekly "Win 9 Warzones" mission?

Did you even read what you quoted?

 

 

And in the other case, if you keep throwing yourself at a raid, you are going to kill some things, even if you don't kill everything in there. Personally I don't like rewarding people for losing at PvP either, but they have to do it otherwise most people would just quit the warzone at the first sign of a loss. It's not hard to come up with a similar system for failing at a raid (say the trash drops a couple or three commendations per kill, while bosses drop 10. or 20).

 

Last time I checked, losing WZs still gives you comms which can be used to buy gear. A player can also be afk in a game most of the time and their team can still win (huttball for example) due to superior play, and get his WZ dailies done that way too. So essentially a person will get gear in pvp no matter what eventually.

 

Pve is not the same. There is no such thing as throw yourself at it and eventually you'll get gear. You need the right group comp to win. Also, you must be the luckiest bastard alive since you've apparently never wiped on the same boss for hours on end, and then end up quiting the FP/raid/whatever and get multiple fat repair bills and no loot. Lol if trash dropped stuff, people would just farm trash all day making it super fast to get gear.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Paralassa
content

[Tonymitsu]

if the devs remove expertise its proof positive that they cave to the masses. To those who qq about expertise -its not expertise that's killing you on the field, its your lack of skill and cooperation.

 

it also is available to everyone. You don't need an exclusive club pass to get expertise. So if you're convicned its the end-all be-all, go get some. Then you can be unstoppable!!!

 

Ah Ha.

No. Just no.

 

Take a 50 geared in Rakata's to any other 50 gear in Battlemaster, or even Champion gear.

 

The PvP geared player destroys the raider. Every time. Some times irregardless of skill.

It's not even like it's close.

 

 

I much prefer to spend the majority of my time on seeing a well-executed raid to PvP, especially when said raid also tells me a good story. Though I do get a thrill from good PvP matches, I generally only like doing them once in a while. I don't care about having a gear advantage. I don't want one. I'd rather have a good match.

So why should I waste my time grinding out an entirely different set of gear to get my PvP fix? Why can't I use the same **** for both? There's is no logical reason other than "EA wants your money, and the longer you have to play the better."

 

@Tonymitsu - Okay you want to have one set of gear for PvP and PvE. As for your drop-system to balance the time: Who says a raid-group is able to beat an encounter and is able to finish their quest?

As for your other point with game mechanics: I don't really see the problem, the benefits of expertise are capped. Yes a player without expertise will be utterly destroyed by someone with it. But that is the point of gearing up, is it not? With patch 1.2 you will be able to buy the champion gear with credits - so the difference between new 50s and old 50s will be smaller, at least in PvP.

Whaa, im way to slow at writing >.<

 

Who says the PvPer will get his Weekly done every week? The fact is implementing a system where you get a bag for doing those missions that contains random gear is a self-sustaining system that will produce nearly identical results to raids.

 

People who really want to get the weekly done will go into Warzones in groups, use tactics and strategy, and get it done. People who don't will not. It's sort of how a guild raid with experienced players has a much better chance of killing the boss than a raid full of pick-ups that have never been in there before.

 

Similar results will be found by having raid mobs drop only commendations. Either way gear will progress at the same rate. Just pick a freaking system for both and go with it. It's such an obvious solution it makes my eyes hurt from all the rolling.

 

 

And every point you made can also be made with or without Expertise in the equation. People will gear up when they perform well, your gear will give you an advantage over people who didn't do so well. The biggest difference is that when Expertise is in the equation that advantage is completely insurmountable, and I'll have 10 fewer open slots in my backpack.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Parali
bad quote

[Tonymitsu]

Last time I checked, losing WZs still gives you comms which can be used to buy gear. A player can also be afk in a game most of the time and their team can still win (huttball for example) due to superior play, and get his WZ dailies done that way too. So essentially a person will get gear in pvp no matter what eventually.

 

Pve is not the same. You must be the luckiest bastard alive since you've apparently never wiped on the same boss for hours on end, and then end up quiting the FP/raid/whatever and get multiple fat repair bills and no loot. Lol if trash dropped stuff, people would just farm trash all day making it super fast to get gear.

 

...

 

Which is why you stop rewarding people for losing by only giving out gear in bags from mission rewards.

 

Which is why, upon switching over to commendations, PvE people will get geared eventually too.

 

...and gearing super fast is already possible doing just what you described in PvP....

 

....and you're arguing.... that this is a good thing?

 

 

You know what? Forget it. You aren't even reading before you reply.

 

It's impossible to stay principled when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.

[Kaarsa]

I firmly stand by the idea that EA, as a typical greedy corporate entity, is perfectly happy with the players being required to waste time grinding separate gear for PvP and PvE.

 

I just hope they don't expect me not to ***** and call them out over it.

 

 

 

I don't suppose player skill could possibly matter for anything in this day in age?

 

No? Anyone?

 

...Is this thing on?

 

I want to ask you a question - have you seen 1.2 patch notes or spend like 15 seconds here on forum to get information about upcoming patch? Probably not, so I will post it here for you.

 

There will be no grind for basic pvp gear, you will buy entry set for like 300k credits.

 

To get full battlemaster set you will need 12 000 warzone commendations. Nothing else (no valor requirment, no bags only from dailies etc). You can start buing it below lev 50.

 

New lev 50 pvp dailies give wz comms (I dont know how much exactly, my char on PTS is lev 12;)), which speed up the process substantialy.

 

War hero gear will probably require more time than that, but it is like 1-2% better than BM, so no problem here.

 

Now, where is this grind needed to get pvp gear? It offcialy disapear from game with 1.2 patch.

 

Expertise is needed, because progresion in pve is needed (or is generaly perceived as needed by majority of pve mostly players). In pvp on the other hand, what is needed is equality of gear for skills to matter, so pvp gear have to be easily attainable. PVP gear has to be weak in pve, and pve gear should not dominate pvp. Hence, expertise, clean and elegant solution.

 

TL DR

 

Yes, currently expertise seems broken because of grind needed to get it (ofc, this is subjective, my first lev 50 char got to 500+ in like 3 days, grind is currently for BM only). In 1.2 there will be no grind anymore, so only reason to bash expertise is gone.

[LSky]

Expertise serves no real purpose other than to make you completely un-killable by a player who doesn't have expertise, which means that PvP boils down almost entirely to gear..

 

This does not follow. It makes gear relevant. Just because it makes gear relevant doesn't mean that it becomes decisive. Your logic is flawed.

[zaknaphein]

Well on 1.2 expertise quite changes. While Dmg dealt is going up normally, damage taken has a lower diminishing return.

[vimm]

If you remove expertise people in endgame raidgear will mop the floor with people who only pvp.

 

What if both armor sets were equally good?

Edited March 27, 2012 by Parali
bad quote

[Jrovak]

is it the 1st of April yet?

PVE players have already the opportunity to be on equal footing with PvP players Gearwise.

now they want to remove Expertise from PvP gear?

 

this is geting better and better, there is no stoping them lol

[Morgorth]

Well on 1.2 expertise quite changes. While Dmg dealt is going up normally, damage taken has a lower diminishing return.

You sure about that? Those guys on sithwarrior.com seem to say something different. Correct me if im wrong. According to them, expertise is now "capped" at 0.5 not 0.2; so the overall formula changed, but not specific for damage reduction etc..

Edited March 22, 2012 by Morgorth

[Yeochins]

What if both armor sets were equally good?

 

Then why RAID if both armor sets were equally as good? No need to spend hours trying down SOA.

 

Bad players will always be bad. The only people who complain about expertise are:

 

• The baddies
  
• PvE'ers
  

 

 

Getting together a 4-man group for Hard-Modes takes significantly more time than anything PvP-based.