Why remove expertise?

[Solbjorn]

Listen to yourself. "Forced to keep up." Utter nonsense. You're not forced to do anything. If you don't PvP you'll get the same gear you always got. And if you don't PvP, why do you need to "keep up" with anyone? Keep up for what reason? Do you see how your argument is getting dumber and dumber?

 

There is multiple lock outs. Few do more than 1 raid a night. There's a lot of PvP content and bosses to down. If you're doing all PvE content every week you don't really have much time to PvP...unless of course you're some 8 hour a day loser.

 

dude people got full sets of rakata gear in my guild in 2 weeks doing a raid a day. how many people playing for the equivalent amount of time would have full BM gear? if your a competent raider and and have a competent group you clear raids quick and then chill. pvp requires a stupid amount of grinding to collect comms meanwhile in pve you have a good chance of just getting your gear flatout. I do both, getting rakata gear was much faster than getting BM gear

Edited March 22, 2012 by Solbjorn

[xxdragonragexx]

dude people got full sets of rakata gear in my guild in 2 weeks doing a raid a day. how many people playing for the equivalent amount of time would have full BM gear? if your a competent raider and and have a competent group you clear raids quick and then chill. pvp requires a stupid amount of grinding to collect comms meanwhile in pve you have a good chance of just getting your gear flatout. I do both, getting rakata gear was much faster than getting BM gear

 

They are actually trying to fix that because they said that players are blazing or speeding through pve content really fast.

 

They are further separating the gears in pve and pvp to slow down the raiding progression. Although this is just speculation on my part.

Edited March 22, 2012 by xxdragonragexx

[EternalFinality]

Utter nonsense to you or not, doesn't matter. The simple fact that a lot of people have the playstyle I covered will not change. The devs will continue to support such playstyle because it is the norm in this game and most MMO and it is what makes the most money.

 

Also I'm not here to educate you. Nor am I here to make the blind see. There are none so blind as those who refuses to see.

 

This sounds a whole lot like "I'm wrong and I know it."

 

dude people got full sets of rakata gear in my guild in 2 weeks doing a raid a day. how many people playing for the equivalent amount of time would have full BM gear?

 

After 1.2, everyone, apparently.

 

I do both, getting rakata gear was much faster than getting BM gear

 

I agree, but PvP gear has the "you'll eventually get it even if you suck" thing going for it. Not so in raids.

 

Not sure what point you're trying to make though.

[Solbjorn]

They are actually trying to fix that because they said that players are blazing or speeding through pve content really fast.

 

They are further separating the gears in pve and pvp to slow down the raiding progression. Although this is just speculation on my part.

 

ya and id be pissed if the guy in full rakata was wrecking BMs because his gear is superior. I did pvp so i could do better fighting against other players. it would be lame if the guys doing dungeons shared the same advantage

[EternalFinality]

ya and id be pissed if the guy in full rakata was wrecking BMs because his gear is superior. I did pvp so i could do better fighting against other players. it would be lame if the guys doing dungeons shared the same advantage

 

PvP for fun. Stop PvPing for gear. You are what is wrong with the game.

[xxdragonragexx]

Don't feed the trolls.

[Solbjorn]

 

 

After 1.2, everyone, apparently.

 

 

 

I agree, but PvP gear has the "you'll eventually get it even if you suck" thing going for it. Not so in raids.

 

Not sure what point you're trying to make though.

 

then just afk in WZs for 2 hrs a day for a week and be a BM if thats all you think it takes. valor was increased to make it less of a grind but to get any decent valor you need atleast 4 medals which means alot of bad players cant just afk. then they made BM comms purchasable about 4000 WZ comms. if i win a WZ i get about 100 WZ comms, if i win. so lets say i always win, which i couldnt do by sucking, every 40 WZs i could get 1 BM comm. ill average every WZ at about 15 min. with no queue times every 600 min i get 1 comm, thats 10 hrs so every week at 2hrs a day i get 1 comm. my dailies give me 2 bags a day which have a 20% chance of giving me an additional comm so by that percentage about every 3 days i get another comm so by the end of a week i get one piece of BM gear.

 

 

clearly you would have to be enjoying yourself to put yourself through this^ and your saying pve gear should be better than pvp gear cuz it "harder to get" you are whats wrong with this game. "i shouldnt have to pvp to be competitive in pvp"

Edited March 22, 2012 by Solbjorn

[Joetwoshots]

I remember times when players in mmos pvped and killed eachother for fun, cause game allowed it. Now its grind grind and even more grind.

[AidenPryde]

What?

 

That's just... wrong. everything you said in those two paragraphs is just wrong.

 

#1 Expertise exists because resilience exists. plain and simple. Its the same reason Rift has Valor because the developers are copying a mechanic (even if it is bad) from a popular MMO that most of their player base has played.

 

#2 Resilience was created not for a gear grind to keep subs. At the time resilience was introduced(TBC), WoW was already out for over 2.5 years and still growing in subscription numbers. The reason a PvP stat was introduced was to taper the effect of top PvE geared players dominating when the newly created ranked arenas launched. To even the playing field, because top PvE gear was BIS and pure PvPers couldn't compete.

 

#3 Hundreds of MMOs, have had extreme success creating PvP without the use of gear grind. Not to mention PvE gives the "Need" for gear grind even though it is not required for an MMO to be successful.

 

#4 The main draw for PvP is PvP. Even outside MMOs, there are thousands of games that incorporate or are primarily based around PvP that have absolutely no stat or gear improvement grind. The only "grind" is in status, Ladder rankings, and Cosmetics.

 

#5 If players are PvPing for gear upgrades to get gear upgrades so that they can grind more gear upgrades to the point where they feel there is no reason to PvP if there are not more gear upgrades to grind to... Then something is wrong with the system. Bioware realized this and is trying to fix it by making the gear grind short and still a sense of achievement but after that, the only reason to step into PvP will be to defeat other players who will constantly give you a dynamic challenge that you cannot ever experience in PvE.

 

Which is completely what PvP should be.

 

Back to the OP.

 

Expertise is a broken mechanic. and there are already problems with the way its handled. Defensive characters benefit more from it than offensive characters, and those that can heal even more so. Its already getting to a point where Bioware is nerfing the healers to compensate. What happens when expertise is at 20 or 30 percent? Will trauma have to go up to 50%? This is ridiculous, All because the system is bad.

 

There are better ways to deal with the PvE gear threat than a PvP stat. in fact BW was very close to achieving this. They just seemed to stumble at the finish line.

 

Yeah Bioware has already nerfed entire skill trees because of PvP which has had a dramatic impact in PvE. Look at how Concealment was nerfed and the impact of PvE there.

[Solbjorn]

I remember times when players in mmos pvped and killed eachother for fun, cause game allowed it. Now its grind grind and even more grind.

 

i do think getting pvp gear should be easier so all players who pvp often are on the same level. however i dont think the guy raiding all the time should be able to walk in with his pve gear and dominate people with pvp gear, that makes no sense. if my pvp gear doesnt work well in raids then pve gear can work well in pvp. and ive said before people in pve gear can still beat people in pvp gear, if theyre a better player

[Joetwoshots]

i do think getting pvp gear should be easier so all players who pvp often are on the same level. however i dont think the guy raiding all the time should be able to walk in with his pve gear and dominate people with pvp gear, that makes no sense. if my pvp gear doesnt work well in raids then pve gear can work well in pvp. and ive said before people in pve gear can still beat people in pvp gear, if theyre a better player

 

That is why we said that bolster system needs to be TWEAKED and re-introduced into lvl 50 cap instead of expertise. Ive already made a post about this idea in suggestion box(my sig). It was mentioned few times in this topic aswell.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Joetwoshots

[Jeopardydd]

I remember times when players in mmos pvped and killed eachother for fun, cause game allowed it. Now its grind grind and even more grind.

 

 

 

yup.

 

I actually left RIFT because of it.

 

I don't want to leave this game too.

[Kerishnak]

This guy knows what he is talking about, please read.

 

I posted at length in that thread why it should be removed.

 

Full story here

 

I'll cut and paste snippets here just focusing on reasons for TOR

 

 

Now in SWTOR we have this similar mechanic that feels pointlessly shoe-horned into the game without any real understanding of why it might be needed, if it is needed at all.

 

Currently, Expertise in SWTOR does 3 things:

1) Increase damage done to players

2) Decrease damage taken from players

3) Increase healing done to players

 

So let's break down the problems with the mechanic by itself.

Numbers 1 and 3 on that list are ultimately rendered moot by two opposing players of equal gear. The same damage bonus that you get against a player is negated entirely by that players protection from it. So that effect might as well not even exist. I have a hard time wrapping my brain around this decision, assuming it was intentional. Unlike in WoW, where Resilience makes matches last longer, Expertise serves no real purpose other than to make you completely un-killable by a player who doesn't have expertise, which means that PvP boils down almost entirely to gear.

 

Number 2 is the only effect that really makes a difference.

 

...And it is terrible.

 

It's a forgone conclusion that gear will eventually scale upwards in this game. Unless there is an entirely different formula in place for the healing bonus, or DPS stats on gear are scaled to match it, this means that eventually we will reach a point where no one can kill each other as long as a healer is present. Get it? This means you will HAVE to change the way the stat functions at some point.

 

 

Secondly, the implementation of the stat is quite baffling. SWTOR had an advantage over WoW here, in that they introduced their PvP stat in an expansion several years down the road, while you guys had one planned from the start. With that in mind, what was the logic behind the decision to make Expertise only available to level 50 players? Why wouldn't you put it on all PvP gear? This is even more baffling by the fact that you planned for people to be able to level AND gear extensively in PvP by providing all that extra armor and weapons in the vendors, yet for some reason you omitted Expertise. I mean seriously... why? I can only assume the ramifications for this were made blatantly obvious by the end of the first month when every single person under level 50 was getting slaughtered so badly that you had to put 50's in their own bracket.

The easier solution? Get rid of the stat altogether. Then 50's don't need their own bracket, because we have Bolster. I don't think I words can make it any clearer how much it detrimentally affected PvP than exactly what happened.

 

 

Finally, the entire premise of the stat itself is self-defeating and stupid. It serves only to drive a gigantic wedge firmly between the camp of players that prefer PvP and the ones that prefer PvE, and ensures that virtually no one can cross between them.

 

</snip>...The fact is that a system like the current one forces players to waste time grinding two sets of gear to compete in either system and vehemently discourages, if not outright preventing, someone who prefers one system from even dabbling in the other. I'm all for someone in their PvP-grinded gear filling a last minute raid slot, just as I know many PvPers who would welcome a new challenge from someone who normally raids. Instead, having a PvP stat does the exact opposite.

 

 

 

As far as Aether's.... charming assertion goes... I find a measure of situational irony in the fact that I took the stance that the vast majority of people who defend Expertise don't even know why they do it.

[RealAeiouy]

This guy knows what he is talking about, please read.

 

No removing expertise is a horrible idea. It messes up pvp and pve. If you remove expertise you have to make the absolute highest rated pve gear in the game attainable through normal pvp play. If you do that then 75% of the pve players will pvp for their gear half heartedly which ruins pvp for pvp players. At the same time the remaining 25% of the pve players will be upset that they lost most of the people they raid with and also that pve gear is being given away without effort.

 

If you remove expertise without allowing pvp players having access to the best gear then you might as well shut pvp down. You can't just bolster everything and remove all items from pvp. There are already enough complaints about it.

 

The reality is most pvpers are fine with expertise as it addresses the issues for pve and pvp. The only people who don't like it are those who want to both pve and pvp without putting in the requisite effort. None of the people who say remove expertise properly address the interconnected issues that impact every single player in the game. Given all those issues expertise is a very simple answer and wanting it removed is dumb.

[Agemnon]

Because those people are dumb. If you remove expertise people in endgame raidgear will mop the floor with people who only pvp.

 

And thus encourage raiding! I don't like the resil idea because it makes no sense to somehow be stronger against humanoids than it does against beasts or even NPC humanoids.

[Agemnon]

Or, why not have everyone be as if they are full BM when they enter a WZ?

[FormulaOne]

Most of the players defending expertise, hopped onto the PvP bandwagon during / or long after 2007...this is all that they are used to.

 

PvP was fine before then (even better for the opinion of some). The excuse to say that PvE players will mop the floor with anyone not PvE geared has no basis. Blizzard put resilience into the game, because - at the time - getting into a 40-man raiding guild was difficult for some players. But since most games, WoW included, reduced the size of a raiding group...getting exposed to raiding material is really easy.

 

As it stands right now, it was easier to become involved/expand-the-intrigue of newer players with an older non-expertise system. In that system the gear you used to cap your level was closer, stat-wise, with raiding gear than Expertise/Resilience gear.

 

Otherwise it will just be the same 30-50 people gearing up, while the rest of the world goes and plays a game that doesn't cater to someone who unrealistically plays 24/7. I don't call something PvP if i am always gearing up to PvP. I call it PvP to prove i am formerly hardcore and can embarrass newer and younger "hardcore" players because my teammates and I simply play better.

Edited March 22, 2012 by FormulaOne

[Jrovak]

/5char

 

I agree exept

 Ahh here we go Aion... If you start now, by the time SWTOR is in it's 6th aniversery you MIGHT be geared enough to compete with people who started the game at launch... Nah on second thought that's a bad idea too... and they have PVP stats in that game.

Yu can do full 50e in 3 weeks starting at 50 with no gear nowdays

[xxdragonragexx]

Most of the players defending expertise, hopped onto the PvP bandwagon during / or long after 2007...this is all that they are used to.

 

PvP was fine before then (even better for the opinion of some). The excuse to say that PvE players will mop the floor with anyone not PvE geared has no basis. Blizzard put resilience into the game, because - at the time - getting into a 40-man raiding guild was difficult for some players. But since most games, WoW included, reduced the size of a raiding group...getting exposed to raiding material is really easy.

 

Wrong! Why would a company put two gears and twice the work because people can't get into 40 man? Resilience was introduced because it became obvious that only people with no life will get pvp ranked 15 grand marshall/warlord gear. This is not a good character progression. But at the same time, they don't want pvp to be the source of gear and irritate the raiders who wants gear progression through pve. So they came up with resilience so that raiders will not QQ and pvpers will not skip dungeon content.

Edited March 23, 2012 by xxdragonragexx

[Joetwoshots]

No removing expertise is a horrible idea. It messes up pvp and pve. If you remove expertise you have to make the absolute highest rated pve gear in the game attainable through normal pvp play. If you do that then 75% of the pve players will pvp for their gear half heartedly which ruins pvp for pvp players. At the same time the remaining 25% of the pve players will be upset that they lost most of the people they raid with and also that pve gear is being given away without effort.

 

If you remove expertise without allowing pvp players having access to the best gear then you might as well shut pvp down. You can't just bolster everything and remove all items from pvp. There are already enough complaints about it.

 

The reality is most pvpers are fine with expertise as it addresses the issues for pve and pvp. The only people who don't like it are those who want to both pve and pvp without putting in the requisite effort. None of the people who say remove expertise properly address the interconnected issues that impact every single player in the game. Given all those issues expertise is a very simple answer and wanting it removed is dumb.

 

Sorry, but i disagree with point about pve players attaing gear thru pvp. Attaining high end pvp epix in this game is LONG and BORING grind with RNG. Its faster to just do Ops. Besides not everyone has like 8 hours a day at least to grind pvp and pve.

 

Im a strong believer that being awesome in pvp should be rewarded with more than just stronger gear. It should be more bling, showing off your status, like additional customisation options for gear or skills.

 

Again, i dont understand why so much hate for bolster system. Why cant i bolster everything? Because WOW/Aion/Rift didnt have it and they were good? They werent. Bolster system is new, ingenous idea, which with some proper tweaks can change future of pvp in MMORPGs. Im not saying to take away hardcore pvp, but allow non-hardcore players also experience fun in fair pvp. Right now most of geared players says "exp is fine, we chew scrubs without pvp gear in secs, but we got good fight against geared players", simply denying people who have skill but not enought time for painfull long grind and battles with rng. And yes, there are bad players. They will always be. But im not gonna accept being called bad, just because i cant sit whole day, doing SAME 3 warzones all around.

 

Im aware, that people dont want changes and they feel comfortable with what they already achieved, but consider there is a chance to change things, maybe for better.

[EchoTwoOmega]

Guild Wars.

 

That game had some of the best PVP going on.

 

PVP was totally skill based since EVEYRONE had access to the same gear.

And not 1 piece of gear had any special PVP specific stat.

[KyoMamoru]

Expertise is a mechanic for a simple reason: it makes classes easier to balance in PVP. If a class only has three sets of gear for PVP, before looking at combinations, then it is significantly easier to grasp the total potential of it. Conversely, if you allow every single item in the game to be of competitive in worth in PVP, everything goes to hell due to losing a control over gear itemization and curves.

 

For example, they noticed that players were having a rough time with new level 50s in PVP. Centurion [Tionese level gear] was completely phased out from Warzones. Now players can get 'champion-level' gear for ~500k. Due to expertise itemization, they were able to dumb down the stats to prevent the PVE progression chain from removing Tier 1 Hard Modes as a necessity before one begins to move onto Operations/new content. If it wasn't for this change, then everyone would purchase the Champion Gear, and be capable of skipping all the hours of content that previously existed in the game before its inclusion. Obviously, no developer would do this because it would make the money/time invested in the previous content worthless. So, without expertise, new players in PVP would have to suffer without gear until they were able to progress.

 

With the 1.2 changes, Expertise really doesn't exist. Everyone should have full Champion level gear. This is just a means to normalize the gear between characters, and allow them to tune class damage/survivability via enhancements that are itemized with Expertise. Through changing those enhancements, they are able to nerf/buff classes directly in PVP, without altering PVE.

[Thexremstar]

Because those people are dumb. If you remove expertise people in endgame raidgear will mop the floor with people who only pvp.

 

 

How many ppl have raided ops Hardmodes or Nightmare removeing expertise will drastically increase the QQing in forums with all us raiders in our full rakatas and everyone else in blues and oranges a few tionese and columi it would be a slaughter!

 

I accidently healed in my pve set healed for near 600k

 

Thexremstar Scoundrel sawbones Infinite Empire!

[Thexremstar]

Guild Wars.

 

That game had some of the best PVP going on.

 

PVP was totally skill based since EVEYRONE had access to the same gear.

And not 1 piece of gear had any special PVP specific stat.

 

Everyone access to the same gear now whats your point!

 

Not my fault ppl can not follow instructions in an OPS and complete the operation and win gear that is assigned to them in a 8 man normal! We can all pvp and get the gear, its lazy ppl that whine and whine cause they are just baddies!

 

SWTOR all gear is accessable bye everyone atm there is no ranked system requireing you to be exceptional player to aquire!

 

SWTOR has the fairest pvp system ive played GCD winner!

 

EX WOW player

 

Thexremstar Scoundrel Sawbones Infinite Empire!

[broganthomas]

Yeah PVP gear is only way to keep high end PVE gear out of PVP, which is a good thing..