6 second RS. Lets put the crying to rest.

[Ramsuz]

That's all well and good, but this is still a HUGE nerf. Maybe you guys don't pvp a lot, but I do, and the only way I drop healers is when I get a lot of RS procs.

 

TD>FB>RS>RP>RS>FB>RS>FB>RS - This happens far more often than not. Maybe I'm lucky? It let's me drop heal specced sages, etc.

 

Take out those back to back RS, and I don't think I"ll have the sustained burst I need to a) manage heat appropriately, b) dps through heals.

 

 

If a lucky string of procs is the only way you can drop a Sage...I don't know what to say. Maybe you should try using some cooldowns, your interrupt, your AoE stun, or your elector dart.

 

Commandos/Mercs on the other hand...we'll see after the patch.

[Kimmjongheals]

I guess I may be one of the only ones actually understanding the logic of the OP.

Lets say you FB RS FB(proc starts as soon as you push the button) 1.5sec GCD RS 1.5 sec GCD (that is already 3 sec) then you have 3sec or 2 insta casts before you can rest again so in reality its 3seconds different... not the sky is falling nerf you guys are calling it. I did 753k dmg in 8piece centurion. That was broken and needed the fix.

[Brambler]

It's going to end up being about 30% fewer railshots I think. Going from at best every 3 seconds to at best every 6 seconds (50% reduction), but the better proc rates will counteract some of that (50% more often on fb, 33% more often on rp). Definitely not an insignificant nerf considering how big a part of our damage it is, and of course it totally kills those big bursts of lucky rng streaks.

[anwg]

So for burst, you want to delay pressing RS as much as possible, like with 1.5 seconds left on the ICD?

 

Proc->other attack->other attack->RS->hopefully proc->RS.

[Agooz]

did you decide to just reply to the op without even reading it? I tried to explain it as simply as i could but i think you didnt take the time to understand what i wrote. Basically......anyone still crying 9+ second railshots does not understand the mechanics of the 1' lockout

 

Apparently you are the one that cant read. Why in the hec do you start yet another thread about something already the vast majority see as a nerf.

You either were looking for attention, or an instigator. Which is it?

[Twinkerella]

There's another potential issue I can see. This is mainly a concern for pvp where burst is king.

 

 

So, in order to use rail shot the target needs to be on fire. Oftentimes I will use FB to set them ablaze in the opening (if within range) to set up the first railshot. If the buff procs on that opening FB then the 6sec CD starts I will be locked out from getting a back to back railshot. The optimal rotation will depend upon lining up the back to back rail shot on the opening, imo.

 

With heat management issues I would hate to be in the position to have to open with IM @ 25 heat instead of FB in order to line up the possibility of ED/TD->IM->RS->RP/FB->RS burst rotation.

 

I'm thinking it might be preferable if the buff behaved such that it is only consumed if it resets the CD on railshot.

 

 

Does that sound like a reasonable request or am I not understanding the behavior of the PPA buff correctly in 1.2?

Edited March 20, 2012 by Twinkerella

[Agooz]

0 Seconds: Use Rocket Punch. PPA procs

1.5 Seconds: Use Railshot from PPA proc

3 Seconds: use some other skill

4.5 Seconds: use some other skill

6 Seconds: PPA can now proc again

 

You can quickly point out those who dont know much about PTs right away....

First of all we never start with RP to proc.

Second, at 6 seconds, you can now proc again, meaning you still need on average another 1-2 abilities to proc PPA. So like most of us been saying, that's 7.5-9sec in total and you still might not proc.

Unless those 4 abilities are Rapid shots you will already be at 50-60% heat.

[Assaultrooper]

Apparently you are the one that cant read. Why in the hec do you start yet another thread about something already the vast majority see as a nerf.

You either were looking for attention, or an instigator. Which is it?

 

Or maybe hes hired by Blizzard to make the nerf go on, and make us all un-sub...

 

Mr. OP:

 

-Right now You can vent heat on average every 3 attacks or 4.5 secs (8 heat each 4.5 secs bear with me)

 

-After the changes lets say ur in the middle of the fight the cooldown just went down, you now have to do on average 2 attacks to make it proc.

 

It procs on the second attack thats about 1 sec, now railshot, 2.5 secs now (HERE is when the vent happens.) rapid shot 4 secs, rapid shot 5.5 secs, rapid shot 7 secs. You do RP->FB 10 secs. total counting ability delay from the moment you finished the proc Cooldown. Lets follow your logic and substract 2.5 secs from it = 7.5 It IS STILL a nerf of about 100% of your heat vent.

 

Just wait till it goes live, and the very few Pyro PTs respec either AP (And get disappointed) or Shieldtech.

[Xneco]

0 Seconds: Use Flame Burst. PPA procs

1.5 Seconds: Use Railshot from PPA proc

3 Seconds: Use some other skill

4.5 Seconds: Use some other skill

6 Seconds: Use Flame Burst/Rocket Punch. PPA can now proc again

 

 

You can quickly point out those who dont know much about PTs right away....

First of all we never start with RP to proc.

Second, at 6 seconds, you can now proc again, meaning you still need on average another 1-2 abilities to proc PPA. So like most of us been saying, that's 7.5-9sec in total and you still might not proc.

Unless those 4 abilities are Rapid shots you will already be at 50-60% heat.

 

If the ability used at the 6.0sec mark procs PPA, you can use Rail Shot at 7.5 sec... which is 6secs from the last Rail Shot. So 6-7.5sec between Rail Shots not 7.5-9sec.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Xneco

[Theology]

If the ability used at the 6.0sec mark procs PPA, you can use Rail Shot at 7.5 sec... which is 6secs from the last Rail Shot. So 6-7.5sec between Rail Shots not 7.5-9sec.

 

Except that, on average, it will take 2 abilities to proc the proc, hence why everyone has been saying that.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Theology

[Theology]

Technically, the OP is right. He just worded it weird and it made no sense to me. But we're still looking at RS every 7.5 seconds (9 if we're un-lucky), however, which is 3x as long as we wait now (speaking on averages). The tree is still skewered by that significant loss of heat management.

 

FB/RP (PROC)-6 sec timer beings-(1.5 from RP)> RS(1.5)-vent 8- > Filler(1.5) >Filler(1.5) > PPA ELIGIBLE > FB(1.5) > RP (PROC, 6 SEC TIMER) (1.5 from RP) RS(1.5)-vent 8-

 

^ The above scenario is best case, though. And still doesn't allow any room in our heat pool to use anything but FB/RP to proc and auto attack to fill.

 

The problem still arises though, that the target must be on fire. with IM's insane heat cost, and not wanting to risk wasting your proc with FB, what is left for us to do.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Theology

[Agenteusa]

I did 753k dmg in 8piece centurion. That was broken and needed the fix.

 

Ofc you did. Then you woke up and fell off the bed.

 

theology is right and so are the ones that consider this a nerf. It´s a nerf to heat regen and tbh I´m not gonna spend my time arguing against people that oppose this cause if you don´t say its a nerf your lacking in Pyro PT knowledge.

 

You can come out with whatever math you want but trutth of the matter is (as it is) heat regeneration or ability cost in unchanged (aside from the interrupt) and that will cause us to overheat quite fast having the RS CD much higher.

 

Nerf my dmg, I don´t have a problem with it but don´t nerf my damned rotation or the way I like to play.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Agenteusa

[crunchybacon]

cmon guys seriously, understand the mechanics of how this works before resorting to anger/crying.

The 6 second lockout starts the moment your fb/rp procs PA. In other words. Once u cast fb/rp and proc PA, the 6 second timer starts meaning by the time u cast RS and its gcd has ended there will only be 3 seconds left on the lockout. Which is only 2 gcd's.

How do i know this? Because this mechanic works as such, already on other classes. Plus listen to people talking who are on pts. IMO this is a very minimal nerf at most. Not worth as much attention as it has generated

 

 

I checked your post history, your a jedi shadow. G-T-F-O of our forum you dirty pub.

Edited March 21, 2012 by crunchybacon

[Varicite]

0 Seconds: Use Rocket Punch. PPA procs

1.5 Seconds: Use Railshot from PPA proc

3 Seconds: use some other skill

4.5 Seconds: use some other skill

6 Seconds: PPA can now proc again

 

^ If this is indeed the way it's working, w/ a 6 second earliest opportunity to fire Rail Shot from the last time you used it, then that's fine, imo.

 

It basically means the rotation would end up being something like TD(ExD) > IM > Rail > Rapid > FB > FB (proc) > Rail Shot > Rapid > Rapid > RP > FB (proc) > Rail, etc.

 

I don't have a problem w/ that, as I'm already weaving at least 2 Rapids into my standard rotation and then adjusting accordingly based on PPA proc rate.

 

If that's really the way it's working on PTS, that is.

 

Yes, I realize that the guy I quoted isn't using an actual PT rotation, but I assumed it was a snip from an already in combat rotation. No one is really concerned w/ PPA procs before the initial Rail Shot, and it's very likely that on the next opportunity, you will be using Rocket Punch when the ICD finishes, so his 1-6 can technically still be used for this example.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Varicite

[Theology]

^ If this is indeed the way it's working, w/ a 6 second earliest opportunity to fire Rail Shot from the last time you used it, then that's fine, imo.

 

It basically means the rotation would end up being something like TD(ExD) > IM > Rail > Rapid > FB > FB (proc) > Rail Shot > Rapid > Rapid > RP > FB (proc) > Rail, etc.

 

I don't have a problem w/ that, as I'm already weaving at least 2 Rapids into my standard rotation and then adjusting accordingly based on PPA proc rate.

 

If that's really the way it's working on PTS, that is.

 

Yes, I realize that the guy I quoted isn't using an actual PT rotation, but I assumed it was a snip from an already in combat rotation. No one is really concerned w/ PPA procs before the initial Rail Shot, and it's very likely that on the next opportunity, you will be using Rocket Punch when the ICD finishes, so his 1-6 can technically still be used for this example.

 

Every 6 seconds would only happen if it proc'd on the first flame burst every time, which, we know, won't happen. It will be on average every 7.5

 

If the timer was bumped down to 4.5, then it would be on average, eveyr 6 seconds, and so on.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Theology

[Varicite]

Every 6 seconds would only happen if it proc'd on the first flame burst every time, which, we know, won't happen. It will be on average every 7.5

 

If the timer was bumped down to 4.5, then it would be on average, eveyr 6 seconds, and so on.

 

I understand this, but I think that the important part is that at the earliest opportunity to proc, it should stay in line w/ other heat venting abilities provided by AP and ST.

 

ST has their shield vent talent venting at 6 seconds at the earliest opportunity, and sometimes a little bit later due to the RNG factor of shielding. This is supplemented by Heat Blast, which will now be off the GCD in 1.2.

 

AP has their automatic venting at every 6 seconds period, w/ no other venting mechanics to assist, because their passive regen is so good.

 

PT has GAJ as a supplement to the heat venting mechanic provided by PPA. I know that GAJ is terrible, and even more RNG, but the simple fact of the matter is that it's THERE, and situationally does provide an option for additional heat venting in Pyro.

 

On top of that, there is PPA proc'ing at 6 second earliest interval, as well as the "free" Rail Shot saving us 8 heat.

 

I think that if the mechanic currently works on PTS the way it's described in the OP, if we do actually lower the ICD to 4.5, then when it DOES proc on the first hit, it begins to become TOO good again, and I would much rather avoid another situation like this where we find ourselves potentially overnerfed.

 

If the argument is to simply remove the RNG factor altogether and make PPA lower the cd on Rail to 6 seconds, then I can see that being an alternative solution. However, this would take away the "fun" factor of PPA procs as well as lower our burst potential considerably by not allowing us to take advantage of a back-to-back proc at least once a fight.

 

So honestly, I'm going to keep my jury out until I have some kind of confirmation on whether this is the way it's behaving on PTS currently, or if PTs are seeing their Rail Shots at the 7.5 mark (earliest opportunity) as we originally thought.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Varicite

[Baconmonster]

Is it confirmed by someone who has tested it on the PTS that the proc timer starts when the proc occurs not when railshot is used?

 

Example- TD>IM>RS>FB>RP (proc) ICD starts

 

or is it

 

TD>IM>RS>FB>RP(proc)>RS ICD starts

[Theology]

It hasn't been confirmed, but looking at other mechanics we determined that it's likely going to be like the latter of the 2 you posted. If it is infact the first, it needs changed even more.

[Kaarsa]

BTW, there is 1 flaw in logic used here.

 

If currently PPA proc is on average every 3rd skill (assuming flame strike as main proc achiever), you have something like this

 

1. Rail shot (from previous proc) 0 sec

2. Flame strike 1,5 sec

3. Flame strike 3 sec

4. flame strike 4,5 sec (proc)

5. Rail shot 6 sec

 

So, now you vent heat every 6 seconds, with internal timer you will vent heat every 7,5 or 9 sec on average. Nerf? Of course. Unplayable and broken? Yea right.

[Theology]

BTW, there is 1 flaw in logic used here.

 

If currently PPA proc is on average every 3rd skill (assuming flame strike as main proc achiever), you have something like this

 

1. Rail shot (from previous proc) 0 sec

2. Flame strike 1,5 sec

3. Flame strike 3 sec

4. flame strike 4,5 sec (proc)

5. Rail shot 6 sec

 

So, now you vent heat every 6 seconds, with internal timer you will vent heat every 7,5 or 9 sec on average. Nerf? Of course. Unplayable and broken? Yea right.

 

Unplayable and broken as per the other 2 trees? You betcha.

[Agooz]

BTW, there is 1 flaw in logic used here.

 

If currently PPA proc is on average every 3rd skill (assuming flame strike as main proc achiever), you have something like this

 

1. Rail shot (from previous proc) 0 sec

2. Flame strike 1,5 sec

3. Flame strike 3 sec

4. flame strike 4,5 sec (proc)

5. Rail shot 6 sec

 

So, now you vent heat every 6 seconds, with internal timer you will vent heat every 7,5 or 9 sec on average. Nerf? Of course. Unplayable and broken? Yea right.

 

First of all I do not know why someone who doesnt play the AC or knows very little about it, comes to the PT thread to put their 2cents in. FYI, there is no such thing as Flame strike.

 

Second, why are you assuming that at 4. you WILL proc RS? are we getting a 100% proc chance and I missed it somehow? There is still a very good chance you will NOT proc RS.

 

Third, there is not way in hell it will play out like this, with the spaming of "Flame Burst". If we do, then we will at 50% heat by the time we get the following proc. That is the whole point of these threads. We are not complaining about the dps nerf, we are complaining about our heat, our playstyle, our rotation, our reliance now on our free basic attack most of the time, and the fun factor.

[Kaarsa]

First of all I do not know why someone who doesnt play the AC or knows very little about it, comes to the PT thread to put their 2cents in. FYI, there is no such thing as Flame strike.

 

Second, why are you assuming that at 4. you WILL proc RS? are we getting a 100% proc chance and I missed it somehow? There is still a very good chance you will NOT proc RS.

 

Third, there is not way in hell it will play out like this, with the spaming of "Flame Burst". If we do, then we will at 50% heat by the time we get the following proc. That is the whole point of these threads. We are not complaining about the dps nerf, we are complaining about our heat, our playstyle, our rotation, our reliance now on our free basic attack most of the time, and the fun factor.

 

I play vanguard and I found this topic linked in one of doom and gloom PT threads in pvp forum, OP is very interesting and if it is true, it is very important.

 

It is you (by you I mean "we were nerfed and absolutely unplayable now, I unsub!" crowd) who claim that you get PPA proc every 3 abilities on average. Thing is, getting proc every 3 abilities is not getting free RS every 4,5 second. It is getting free RS every 6 seconds. And this changes everything.

 

This 1-5 I wrote is not "a way I play my vanguard", it is just graphical manifestation of "I proc PPA every 3 skills". I dont know how to make my point clearer now.

 

And btw, it is the same "you" who claim that besides flame burst (thanks for the tip), RP and RS + thermal detonator pyro PT have no ability worth casting. So, either you spam FB like in above example, or use some auto attacks to conserve heat. What exactly has changed then? Using even 1 different skill instead of RP and RS delays your average proc of PPA. Only change is you get your proc (assuming OP is right) every 7,5, not 6 sec like now on average, and that you cannot do TD-RS-RP-RS-FB-RS with great dose of luck resulting in incredible burst.

[Iserath]

first of all bh is the farrrrr from the first class to get a nerf like this... all i have to say is sorcs..marauders...Guardians... nerf them.. please.. wanna talk about spamming abilities???

 

sorc hybrid?? sorcs grab wrath in the madness tree, madness gives force lightning NO MORE CD, wrath gives force lightnings damage (that tics multiple times) each tic has a 30% chance to make your next damaging force attack with a cast time cast automatically with 20% MORE damage...(Force lightning has a POSITIVE resource usage when talented, meaning you have MORE force after you use it than BEFORE)

Also in the lightning tree, they get lightning barrage giving force lightning 2x ticking speed and 2x channeling speed... AND THEN they get Lightning Effusion giving any force attack to crit gives your next 2 force abilities 50% reduce force cost.. also gives force run a 10 sec reduced CD just for added bonus...

 

Also within the first 2 tiers of lightning and madness you get tons of +crit% and +damage to multiple attacks..9% less force with all force abilities at all times...Lightning strike has a 100% chance to increase your force regain speed by 10% x3 for a total of 30% force regeneration ONTOP of all the other force saving talents and insane skills in the FIRST TWO TIERS and the 3rd at the max!!! ALSO Shock with a 45% chance to re-hit for an aditional 50% damage... hybrid setups are INSANE for sorcs.....

 

THE MOST i could see the BH setback and still be somewhat fair... is 3-4 seconds... bottom line...

[Thankyjack]

You realize 4 GCDs is 6 seconds, right? And that our only way of venting heat is tied to this ability. Not to mention, we don't get to rail shot 'every 6 seconds', we still have to go through 2 GCDs to get he proc (3 seconds,) thus resulting in 9 seconds per rail shot.

 

Is this what you are seeing on the PTS?

[Thankyjack]

You're not counting the (on average) 2 GCD's to actually proc the railshot though, is what im trying to say. You still have to go through 3 seconds of GCD to get that proc.

 

While still left to chance, didn't they significantly increase the possibility of it proccing to go along with the 6 ICD?