Can YOU interrupt a 2.5 second cast?

[astrocanis]

I don't think it will be as drastic as that. WoW's nerfs to healers were always wild and over the top (and usually to the wrong healing class... nerf priests while resto druids remain gods lol).

 

Sorc is one of the most played classes in the game, bioware won't completely destroy them. Sorc healers are abit OP right now, especially in groups. They still will be able to heal themselves up 1 v 1 all day, but this makes it so they can't so easily tank 2-3 players at once while keeping someone else alive as well.. they may have to choose between saving themselves or their target, which sounds balanced to me.

 

And again, the good pvpers will always try to protect you healers, especially once ranked comes out. I know personally I am always willing to die in PVP to save the healer as they are more valuable then i am to my team, and many other good players have to feel the same way. We <3 our healers and will protect them. See the changes first hand before you panic over patch notes that could still be changed before it launches on live servers. Look at the forums right now, every single class from BH, to Sorc, to Troopers are all complaining about tiny nerfs here and there (while ignoring buffs to other aspects of our classes).

 

Uh. I love you? Will you be my daddy?

 

Good PvPers are as scarce as hen's teeth. I can't tell you how many WZ I've been in where the tanks don't even bother to guard and after I save someone (because whoever it is that's killing them notices I'm keeping them alive) their "enemy" attacks me and they just run off blithely pew-pewing against an easier (one that has no idea they're there) target while I get stunlocked into oblivion. Gotta love resolve, dontcha?

 

[edit] Unfortunately, we play on opposite sides

Edited March 17, 2012 by astrocanis

[Soshla]

I am trying to keep this in mind. But I've played other games (ahem - priest in WoW) that were annihilated. I kept playing it for a long time and eventually things turned around. But not before I had to take a lot of sh...oeshine because I played a "crap" class.

I frankly doubt that Bioware has "numbers" demonstrating that the changes aren't crippling. Remember the state they released Operatives/Smugglers in 4 months ago? And it's taken them 4 months to start fixing them.

 

I think someone hit the nail on the head when they said that this patch shows the Dev teams general dislike of healers in PvP. I don't see why 1-2 healers shouldn't be significantly more powerful than a 7-8th DPS. It's rewarding group diversity, and a 3rd or 4th healer is much less useful than additional DPS. Seems good to me.

 

Can I survive for an extended time against 2-3 bad DPS? Yes. Am I healing anyone else during that time? Not if they have gear above full Cent. A single geared DPS who uses interrupts effectively can pretty much shut me down, the only healing I do to other people is to toss a bubble/Rejuvenate here and there or during a stun.

 

The changes reek of over tuning. The Conveyance fix was going to be a significant hit already, removing fast Deliverances all together is just crippling.

 

I probably won't wait 4 months for Bioware to fix Commandos to Sages. Hopefully D3 launches by then.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Soshla

[astrocanis]

I frankly doubt that Bioware has "numbers" demonstrating that the changes aren't crippling. Remember the state the released Operatives/Smugglers in 4 months ago? And it's taken them 4 months to fix them.

 

I think someone hit the nail on the head when they said that this patch shows the Dev teams general dislike of healers in PvP. I don't see why 1-2 healers shouldn't be significantly more powerful than a 7-8th DPS. It's rewarding group diversity, and a 3rd or 4th healer is much less useful than additional DPS. Seems good to me.

 

Can I survive for an extended time against 2-3 bad DPS? Yes. Am I healing anyone else during that time? Not if they have gear above full Cent. A single geared DPS who uses interrupts effectively can pretty much shut me down, the only healing I do to other people is to toss a bubble/Rejuvenate here and there or during a stun.

 

The changes reek of over tuning. The Conveyance fix was going to be a significant hit already, removing fast Deliverances all together is just crippling.

 

You aren't helping my frame of mind =P

[justandulas]

Uh. I love you? Will you be my daddy?

 

Good PvPers are as scarce as hen's teeth. I can't tell you how many WZ I've been in where the tanks don't even bother to guard and after I save someone (because whoever it is that's killing them notices I'm keeping them alive) their "enemy" attacks me and they just run off blithely pew-pewing against an easier (one that has no idea they're there) target while I get stunlocked into oblivion. Gotta love resolve, dontcha?

 

[edit] Unfortunately, we play on opposite sides

 

Resolve really doesn't bother me and I don't have any problems with it that others report, i favor it over that garbage diminishing returns crap of that other game where you literally can't cc them for longer then .5 seconds.

 

And yea, trust me we've all seen bad wz players. I once had a huttball game tied the entire game only to see one of our guys run to the ball, and cross our line with it (thank god it didn't count) all the while our team keeps typing to turna round, and that it's our base and we sorcs tried to pull him.

 

Bad players will only selfishly focus on their stats and numbers, good players will always protect the healer and the points. I will take a win and low numbers over incredible numbers but my team lost. All too often, you see people abandon points to go find the action or let the healer die so they can escape. Once ranked comes out, you will be matched with people close to your ranks so once you get a high ranking, it is assumed you healers will be matched with dps that will actually protect you at all costs.

[justandulas]

You aren't helping my frame of mind =P

 

Ignore the panic mongering he is presenting. Bioware doesn't hate healers, quite the opposite. SWTOR healers are much harder to kill than any other MMO's healers and will more then likely remain so. As to him whining about 4 months it took them to fix ops... is he serious?! Ops still hit harder single target in burst than any class in the game. A good ops/smuggler, is capable of utterly destroying a target with 500+ expertise before they can even counter.

[Demarcc]

Ignore the panic mongering he is presenting. Bioware doesn't hate healers, quite the opposite. SWTOR healers are much harder to kill than any other MMO's healers and will more then likely remain so. As to him whining about 4 months it took them to fix ops... is he serious?! Ops still hit harder single target in burst than any class in the game. A good ops/smuggler, is capable of utterly destroying a target with 500+ expertise before they can even counter.

 

 

Hehe your first MMO is it?

 

Healers in this game die far easier than most other games i've played. WoW? EQ? AC? DAoC? All of these games healers were FAR harder to kill. I've been playing these games since M59 and UO .. healers in this game are not hard to kill generally. Commando / BH healers are hard to kill (for 12s) if some idiot white bars them before shield .. the rest? mahaha easy.

[Broom]

Ignore the panic mongering he is presenting. Bioware doesn't hate healers, quite the opposite. SWTOR healers are much harder to kill than any other MMO's healers and will more then likely remain so. As to him whining about 4 months it took them to fix ops... is he serious?! Ops still hit harder single target in burst than any class in the game. A good ops/smuggler, is capable of utterly destroying a target with 500+ expertise before they can even counter.

 

My main is a 50 BH Powertech tank, my sorc is only level 39... but i'm still calling bs here. I've PVPed in a lot of different games, and I've played healers and tanks in every one of those games. And in by far most of these, the healers could hold their own in PVP and STILL heal well. Better than in SW:TOR, truth be told.

 

Like I said, my healer sorc is only 39... still, I think that's enough levels to say this:

- the current 1.5 second heal (the 2.5 second one with the buff) gets interrupted all the time

- the current 1.5 heal is often ineffective (message: failed) because the target goes out of line of sight

- the only reason I can currently briefly survive 1v1 against a DPS is the fact I can double-tap the heal

- as soon as you're spotted as a healer, you get focussed down hard and fast, even when guarded.

 

From the perspective of my 50 BH, I can add this

 

I've had well geared sorcerors half hysterical in ventrilo because one DPS (usually a marauder) would constantly attack them, keeping them pretty much neutralized the entire wz. They'd die to the DPS, respawn, and immediately be focussed again. I've seen good marauders duel good healer sorcs. The marauders invariably win.

 

I don't really see that much wrong with healing. RIGHT NOW, WITHOUT THE CHANGES, competent DPS have zero problems destroying sorcs, or at the very least making sure they don't heal anyone but themselves.

 

But now BW is giving more DPS to DPS classes, while they simultaneously lower healing effectiveness (and not just for sorcerors) accross the board. This worries me. I don't think it's good for PVP. I think it's going to end in a complete faceroll for DPS classes.

[Latinkuro]

they should split skills into pve and pvp skills.

cause what is overpowered for pvp doesn't mean it is so for pve.

 

this nerfing and rebalancing also affects pve encounters as it is right now

so hard mode and operations would probably have to be rebalanced to account for the healing and damage nerfs.

 

take a page from the best balanced game out there for both pvp and pve.

 

Guild Wars baby.

[Briqs]

Fake cast? Fake what? There is only one heal that needs to be interrupted now and each one can be distinguished by nothing more then the cast time now. You don't even have to remember what any of them are called, just how long it takes.

 

At least now, you have to make a choice. Interrupt the channel that gives a free Nobel Sac or the know the name of the bigger heal (Deliverance) since the reduced cast time made it the same cast time as the crap one (Benevolence).

 

These changes really destroy Sage healing against any half competent opponent that knows 1.5 = let it go, 2.5 = stop.

 

This is the truth. Sage healers will be completely unplayable in PvP if these changes go in. Half of my heals are interrupted as it is when they're 1.5 second cast, when they're 2.5 seconds I might as well not even bind it. Our fast heal heals for about 1500, which will really help you out with that 9k burst damage you just took. You won't find a single PvP healing sage that will tell you the class will still be effective if these changes go in as is. I've never seen such an unnecessary nerf in my 12 years of MMO gaming. Bioware wants you to just run out of the gate, smoosh your buttons on each other until your health gets to 0, then run out and do it again. I guess that's they're idea of fun and engaging PvP.

[Briqs]

My main is a 50 BH Powertech tank, my sorc is only level 39... but i'm still calling bs here. I've PVPed in a lot of different games, and I've played healers and tanks in every one of those games. And in by far most of these, the healers could hold their own in PVP and STILL heal well. Better than in SW:TOR, truth be told.

 

Like I said, my healer sorc is only 39... still, I think that's enough levels to say this:

- the current 1.5 second heal (the 2.5 second one with the buff) gets interrupted all the time

- the current 1.5 heal is often ineffective (message: failed) because the target goes out of line of sight

- the only reason I can currently briefly survive 1v1 against a DPS is the fact I can double-tap the heal

- as soon as you're spotted as a healer, you get focussed down hard and fast, even when guarded.

 

From the perspective of my 50 BH, I can add this

 

I've had well geared sorcerors half hysterical in ventrilo because one DPS (usually a marauder) would constantly attack them, keeping them pretty much neutralized the entire wz. They'd die to the DPS, respawn, and immediately be focussed again. I've seen good marauders duel good healer sorcs. The marauders invariably win.

 

I don't really see that much wrong with healing. RIGHT NOW, WITHOUT THE CHANGES, competent DPS have zero problems destroying sorcs, or at the very least making sure they don't heal anyone but themselves.

 

But now BW is giving more DPS to DPS classes, while they simultaneously lower healing effectiveness (and not just for sorcerors) accross the board. This worries me. I don't think it's good for PVP. I think it's going to end in a complete faceroll for DPS classes.

 

Well said.

[Leszor]

But now BW is giving more DPS to DPS classes, while they simultaneously lower healing effectiveness (and not just for sorcerors) accross the board. This worries me. I don't think it's good for PVP. I think it's going to end in a complete faceroll for DPS classes.

 

Well put

 

The fact that both healers were nerfed (medicine/sawbones was already garbage so im not really counting it) to a pretty nasty degree is worrying, its not just a matter of "wah wah they nerfed my class" anymore

 

And that bit about a single marauder/sent locking down a healer is totally true

You are FORCED to heal yourself like crazy and even if they are focused by 2-3 teammates with all their bullshippery they end up surviving for a unhealthy amount of time - when they finally die they recharge you as soon as they respawn

 

Time spent healing teammates ranges from 0 to 10 seconds

And yet healers get nerfed? Ridicolous

[Niktika]

I just really can't wrap my head around the fact that BW can't see how badly they are going to kill sorc healers with these changes. There are already so few healers as it is, never mind good PvP healers.

 

Yes, sorc healers can pad some retarded numbers in a WZ, but so can any other healer. If you actually look at the amount of sorc healers that are constantly above 3k without cheesing the numbers, you'll start to notice that it's probably a very small amount of sorc healers. And they usually have absoulte **** for damage. The vast majority of sorc heals seem to get around 1.5-2.2k.

[Cavad]

One of my favorite moments in WoW was repentancing a locks fel dom. My druid partner got a stealth off, pounced, then cycloned until the buff was gone lol.

 

 

 

 

Even better when it was spell stealable. Counter spell the .5 sec cast, sheep -> spell steal.

 

 

 

It was the only way to beat an sl/sl lock back in bc as a mage.

[Agemnon]

Not only that, but I interrupt even before the first second is up if I'm already targeting them and any interrupts are off CD. Edited March 18, 2012 by Agemnon

[Yeke]

Personally going to wait and see what happens, all the hysteria (about everything not just this) is a bit premature.

 

Didnt they say they were looking at rebalancing certain stats to make them more appealing?

Maybe alacrity?

 

Not saying its defiately the case but it could work out that way.

[Soshla]

As to him whining about 4 months it took them to fix ops... is he serious?! Ops still hit harder single target in burst than any class in the game. A good ops/smuggler, is capable of utterly destroying a target with 500+ expertise before they can even counter.

I was rather explicitly talking about Ops healers. I'll consider it a reasonable possibility that you've never seen one because they were kind of terrible and Agents are relatively rare to begin with.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Soshla

[Zekiirah]

Broom said a lot that I would have.

 

I have been hysterical in voice chats myself. Once I'm marked, I know it. It's even funner when you can see it for sure with the Social points marker. In a Warzone last night, I had a Marauder jump up on the square cargo underneath the Voidstar spawn area before I'd even finished jumping down. I was knocked out again before I got anywhere close to where I needed to be. I couldn't heal myself fast enough WITH Conveyance, and I was interrupted 2-3 times.

 

What players forget is that our instant heal, Rejuvenate, is not as effective as they may think. I have a nice crit rate, I have good Surge, and I'm lucky to get more than 1500 out of that heal if it crits, and 490ish crit ticks, and 291ish regular ticks (This is PvE, so a a little less in PvP.) Good DPS can slice through that and bring me down much farther than I was before the 5 second cooldown is finished on Rejuvenate. Add waiting on that with one interrupt on my Deliverance cast. The 246 armor rating it gives me does little - I'm already cloth armor. Our Force Armor also goes down in a matter of seconds given the correct DPS skills. This is exactly the same for anyone other than ourselves we use these skills on, excluding the better effectiveness of Armor Rating for Medium/Heavy armor.

 

As for our Sprint? It's great when a player doesn't have a stun up. It's terrible when they do. And chances are, a healer is not going to leave the rest of the group and risk an objective. In my own experience, if I know I'm going down.. I'd rather finish healing someone else rather than futilely healing myself once I get past half HP even after attempting to keep myself going.

 

A lot of us really do think a lot and constantly as Sage/Sorc healers. It's not mindless healing, and it's certainly not easy. Players complain that healing is overpowered with 2-3 healers in a WZ. That isn't healing being overpowered, that's bad set-up. Take it down to only one healer and you'll hear a lot less complaints in the Ops.

[BCBull]

L2fakecast.

 

move along nothing to see here.

[Disaster]

Single healers were able to heal 2-3 people, plus themselves with relative ease. If its entirely aweful BW will make more adjustments. This is the nature of MMO's, trial and error with balancing and lots of changes. I imagine the same people who play those "broken classes" well will be fine playing healers post 1.2. you know, the ones with skill. I don't mean to insult you or call you bad but learn to deal with the changes and eventually you'll see your class is still fine.

 

You would see the odd rare Sage that our gears his opponents by a lot able to out heal all dps coming. But for most of us, just being 1v1'd was just a waiting game until you died. There is no healing others.

 

Its more a gear issue then a class issue. It just shows more with healers as a healer is the ops "tank" class. No one wants the enemies tank class to be good... but it happens some times.

[fungihoujo]

Ignore the panic mongering he is presenting. Bioware doesn't hate healers, quite the opposite. SWTOR healers are much harder to kill than any other MMO's healers and will more then likely remain so. As to him whining about 4 months it took them to fix ops... is he serious?! Ops still hit harder single target in burst than any class in the game. A good ops/smuggler, is capable of utterly destroying a target with 500+ expertise before they can even counter.

 

You've never played another mmo. As a moderately geared pally healer I could outheal 2 of my server's top dps for five minutes before they gave up and went away- druids can do so without ever having a cast time, losing mana or health.

 

Rift healers were off the charts in effectiveness.

 

Healing is actually much, much weaker than it's ever been in any game- and it's made weaker still by everyone automatically having mortal strike on them.

 

Add to that the limited number of heals you get and lack of variety, and huge cast times for the main heal and healing through one person beating on you is nearly impossible- and requires a very large amount of movement, CC and creativity, while hoping the class you face doesn't have mobility and roots... which means very few classes- then add to that the extremely low amount of casting resource we have, and further nerfs to it compared to other games like WoW where you could cast literally forever.

 

 

Oh, and know how I managed to survive two top dps for five minutes as a pally healer? Stood in place with my back to a wall and healed. Try that against a marauder or pyrotech.

[fungihoujo]

L2fakecast.

 

move along nothing to see here.

 

While the marauder or pyrotech or assassin is doing 2k damage/second, you want us to fake cast a heal that heals 2k health/second when actually cast, how many times exactly? Once for the interrupt... hopefully he used it then. Then there's the stun, then a mez, oh, interrupt's back, point blank leap interrupt- so in these 15 seconds where he's dishing out about 30k health and you've healed nothing, you've maybe managed to fake cast him once, grats!

[Niktika]

L2fakecast.

 

move along nothing to see here.

 

Even with fake casting, you still get wrecked. Why? Because in the time that you juke someone and then get a heal off you are almost dead anyway. I don't think you understand how squishy we are. A bubble will get beat off pretty quick, our "instant" heal is seriously like one hit from most classes. In 2.5 seconds it's possible to gib half our health and you think we are going to survive a juke and another hard recast in time?

[_Kayko_]

L2fakecast.

 

move along nothing to see here.

 

Ahem.. I'll repeat...

 

Fake cast? Fake what? There is only one heal that needs to be interrupted now and each one can be distinguished by nothing more then the cast time now. You don't even have to remember what any of them are called, just how long it takes.

 

At least now, you have to make a choice. Interrupt the channel that gives a free Nobel Sac or the know the name of the bigger heal (Deliverance) since the reduced cast time made it the same cast time as the crap one (Benevolence).

 

These changes really destroy Sage healing against any half competent opponent that knows 1.5 = let it go, 2.5 = stop.

 

I guess others don't understand how one dimensional Sages/Sorcs are going to be in 1.2 when it comes to heals. The more that know, the better really. When enough good players show how easy it is to get shut down by a mediocre player, these changes can be looked at again.

 

If only we could get the Bioware Dev team in a warzone. I'd even think about renting some Monkeys from the zoo to show them how easy it is to counter a Sorc/Sage healer.

[Sylvarine]

My main is a 50 BH Powertech tank, my sorc is only level 39... but i'm still calling bs here. I've PVPed in a lot of different games, and I've played healers and tanks in every one of those games. And in by far most of these, the healers could hold their own in PVP and STILL heal well. Better than in SW:TOR, truth be told.

 

Like I said, my healer sorc is only 39... still, I think that's enough levels to say this:

- the current 1.5 second heal (the 2.5 second one with the buff) gets interrupted all the time

- the current 1.5 heal is often ineffective (message: failed) because the target goes out of line of sight

- the only reason I can currently briefly survive 1v1 against a DPS is the fact I can double-tap the heal

- as soon as you're spotted as a healer, you get focussed down hard and fast, even when guarded.

 

From the perspective of my 50 BH, I can add this

 

I've had well geared sorcerors half hysterical in ventrilo because one DPS (usually a marauder) would constantly attack them, keeping them pretty much neutralized the entire wz. They'd die to the DPS, respawn, and immediately be focussed again. I've seen good marauders duel good healer sorcs. The marauders invariably win.

 

I don't really see that much wrong with healing. RIGHT NOW, WITHOUT THE CHANGES, competent DPS have zero problems destroying sorcs, or at the very least making sure they don't heal anyone but themselves.

 

But now BW is giving more DPS to DPS classes, while they simultaneously lower healing effectiveness (and not just for sorcerors) accross the board. This worries me. I don't think it's good for PVP. I think it's going to end in a complete faceroll for DPS classes.

 

 

Couldn't of said it better myself. Well said, but I'm sure it'll be completely ignored. Logic isn't allowed in this game.

[Shadyvoid]

Because if you can, you will be able to dominate a healing sorcerer in 1.2.

 

Force bending (the buff applied upon casting the HoT) is redesigned in 1.2 to no longer decrease the cast time of dark infusion (the 2.5 second "big" heal) by 1s.

 

Every dark infusion (the only heal that actually heals enough) will be full 2.5 cast time (pre-alacrity).

 

Without a percentage damage reduction cooldown, the only "reliable heal" is bubble, which we know is on a debuff cooldown.

 

Lets not pretend that chaining double 1.5 dark infusions was not the only thing keeping us alive against 1 single DPS.

 

 

Oh, and consumption will always consume HP now (the healing talent to remove health consumption was removed).

 

So if you want to recover force (assuming you live long enough without 1.5s dark infusions), you will only put yourself in further jeopardy by using a GCD AND expend HP.

 

 

 

Thank god I rerolled marauder (level 49 baby), which was BUFFED, hahahah.

 

And you won't do any better with a mara. If you fail at a sorc even after the nerf, there's no way your going to improve. I don't know what to tell you, but if you didn't see a nerf coming, your blind as a bat.