Will Shadows Shine or Fall?

[xscott]

If you disagree with the level of play being lower on a PvE server than on a PvP server in regards to actual PvP, then say so. I have a hard time believing that.

 

Oh man ....

 

I play on a PVP server. I rolled a Shadow and a Sentinel. I played, I struggled with the Sent.

 

My friend rolls a PVE server, .. "The Harbringer". I roll an alt there with him.

 

I DOMINATED the warzones at a very LOW level. I was frikin amazed how much easier the sentinel was. I was even going to post on the sentinel boards, addressing the class difficulties at lower levels in PVP .. I would even go play a warzone on the pvp server, just to make sure I was not crazy. PVP'ers bring more game.

 

solution: ROLL ON A PVE server, and PVP. .. of course I am kind of being funny, .. but it was kinda true.

 

I know there is some very skilled PVP people on PVE server's, but in my own expirience,.. there is a huge skill level gap in the average player when compared PVPing on a PVP server vs a PVE server.

 

*ducks*

[grandmasterub]

Id agree with that. Ive only rolled pve servers so far (friends here) but in all previous MMOs I've ben pvp all the way.

 

So far I dominate in WZ and I get a ton of people on my team who have no clue how to pvp. Ive never been super amazing at pvp, good, but im not one to carry a team. On this pve server I can easily carry.

 

Note: this disappears somewhat at 50 because you run into the dedicated pvpers who do have a clue

[Xinika]

Our DPS trees can use some help :[. Edited March 15, 2012 by Xinika

[xscott]

Power and Shinirika:

 

I read what you guys post, and I trust in what you say. You guys really popped the shadow bubble in my head.

 

I know rated 8 man pvp is not here yet, but what your saying is depressing. I dont think there are many shadows on this board that have documented playstyle, given advice, posted videos like you guys have. You guys seem to really know the class.

 

I know you guys are not giving up, . .but damn. Infil is the heart of the shadow, I really hope they buff us. We are the PVP class .. ..

 

can i say we are the enhancement shamans of wow? Killer on paper, killer in game, killer 1 on 1, .. but no one wants you on their team.

[Powerr]

well, if the devs are reading this thread, and I hope they are. It will potentially be addressed. I hope we can provide enough evidence that it is the case that shadows are not suitable for rated. However it is what it is, and we can only make due with what we have been given this very moment.

 

I applied for beta testing in TOR, denied, I applied for a job as a consultant, denied, and I applied for 1.2 testing, and I have been most likely denied. (unless they havn't done it yet)

 

I can repost this thread on the main pvp forums if you guys want, or i suppose the feedback section

Edited March 15, 2012 by Powerr

[matekwong]

Not sure about how you are playing your shadows but after reffering to AstralFire's topic and applied the Balance Stab (0/10/31), I am always the top 5 DPS and does alot of CCs helping out in either Huttballs or solo capping nodes etc.

 

As he has mentioned, the spec is the hardest to play but once you get use to it, every IMP would want you down fast before their srats getting messed by you.

 

I personally think Balanced Spec is going to shine in rated WZs.

Edited March 15, 2012 by matekwong

[Xinika]

well, if the devs are reading this thread, and I hope they are. It will potentially be addressed. I hope we can provide enough evidence that it is the case that shadows are not suitable for rated. However it is what it is, and we can only make due with what we have been given this very moment.

 

I applied for beta testing in TOR, denied, I applied for a job as a consultant, denied, and I applied for 1.2 testing, and I have been most likely denied. (unless they havn't done it yet)

 

I can repost this thread on the main pvp forums if you guys want, or i suppose the feedback section

 

Do what you must, my concern for our class grows daily.

[shagatha]

Don't have much time atm to type anything longer but I agree on most of the posts here. My concerns are for kinetic and infiltration. Both need a revamp. Balance is close to what I think as doable with some small changes even though I would love to play infiltration style more. Edited March 15, 2012 by shagatha

[jaymill]

balance.

 

10/0/31

 

usually top 3 in damage (roughly 300k on average in 12/16 champ pieces in full stalker)

 

all the CC is too much to use on 1 enemy. force potency makes FiB hit hard and when followed by a project makes a great opener

 

the dots do good damage and heal you. keep them up, on more than 1 target and your doing damage and receiving heals for it

 

double strike hits for about 1k for me every time is use it and it procs insta mind crush

 

20 sec CD on force speed... epic in hutt ball. ive scored a number of times.

 

KC shadows rock but in their own way. they are great tanks to lock down an objective or carry the ball and do decent damage.

 

but for damage.... balance without a doubt. its got the utilities to boot.

 

the best ive ever done in a WZ was 360k damage 20k protection 40k healing with 12 medals. that was with 10/16 champ stalker set rest centurion. my server is 4 imps to 1 republic. its hard to find a wz where there isnt at least 5 players in full BM gear who are around valor 80 bc they control ilum all the time. but reps win because we have better team work (when we chose to use it), and also i believe our players really work on their class.

 

it truly boils down to how well someone plays their class. i think i preform rather well. ill never be top dps every time, but top dps doesnt win WZs.

[Anelyn]

All I have to say is BALANCE.

 

Balance has better defenses than Infiltration by a significant amount, much higher multi-target and/or sustained damage, and lots of mobility/utility. A Balance Shadow can keep DoTs and AoE hurt on their entire team, or put out some crazy focus. It takes a Balance Shadow 4.5-6 seconds to get up to full DPS on any given target, and then they can do more damage than most healers can keep up with. A Balance Shadow can easily lock down the enemy healer, forcing them to self-heal, or they can put the hurt on the assist target to neutralize most of the enemy healing.

 

Having a Balance Shadow on the other side will make life much worse for the healers. In stead of having focus fire on one target that they can focus heal, all of their teammates are taking heavy periodic damage. They're stuck with the Dilemma of either healing the focus target, and letting the rest of the team sit at low health, or healing the whole team and watching the focus target die.

 

In my opinion, Balance is the most flexible, versatile build we have. You have the highest overall damage of the three specs, better defenses than Infiltration, the best range, and really good mobility. You're flexible enough to adapt quickly, and you're able to perform well in almost any situation

 

No offense, but what do you mean by HEAVY periodic damage. If your dots would have a similar mechanic to watchmen sent / anni mara, and you could spread them to several peeps then yes I'd agree, but that's not the case.

 

Also since the changes with dot ticks not interrupting, your team will put more emphasis on CC in voidstar / alderaan for objectives than to spread damage.

 

IMHO is easier for a shadow inf to get procs and charges up on a target then quickly switch and burst for a great amount on another target. Low slash, unlike instant force lift, doesn't fill resolve bar leaving room for other CC, as well having a much lower CD.

 

Do both dps trees need a fine tune / rework? Definetly. But as it stands now I really don't see how a balance shadow can perform better than inf, while both being subpar to KC one.

[Magnesium]

If anyone here doesn't think that it would be rather sad to have a "You must be this spec for rated WZs" then you fail to see the real issue.

 

Each class and AC will have positives and negatives, but it should not be a case that a particular setup will be sub-par or another being completely the way to go, of course this goes down to play style and group makeup a lot.

 

I do hope the Devs are reading this thread and the Infil spec in particular is being looked at more carefully.

[jaymill]

@ anelyn

 

Um... You obviously haven't played balance... We have 2 instant cast 18 second dots, one that's a 2 sec root with a cool down, while the other only obeys GCD and cost 20 force... I can run up and put that on 5 people in a group pretty easy then hit my main target with the root (sever force) and start pounding on them with my double strike and get my free mind crush... Plus our force in balance makes our dots tick for 30% more on its targets so I drop that into the group I'm running up to.

 

So I would say our 2 18 sec dots and our free and instacast mind crush is muh better than w/e the sent has... Not to mention I dDon't physically need to touch my target to get my dots on them...

And instant cast force lift does fill up a lot of resolve, but it lifts for a good amount of time and then when broken early it's an additional 2 seconds. Great to use in plenty of situations.

Edited March 15, 2012 by jaymill

[Dulwaithe]

I run 2/8/31 or my pve build (8/2/31) and usually feel like I do pretty well in warzones. I'm almost top damage (usually 300k-500k) unless I'm off guarding a node or running the huttball or something. Of course, anecdotal, personal experience isn't at all as being viable for rated warznes. I've only run into one or two healers that I can't kill solo most of the time and usually do a minimum of dot spreading, preferring to focus down one target at a time.

 

I feel like when pairing balance with another melee dps, preferably operative or sentinel we can drop targets very fast, even if they're guarded or getting healed. Whether this would be just as fast (or faster) with another class, I don't know. I do feel like being able to instant force lift another target while focusing your primary target is invaluable though.

 

Once again, I have my doubts about how viable balance will be in rated warzones, especially given the utility/survivability both sentinels and guardians bring. I can't really speak for how well infiltration of kinetic combat might do.

[Payneintherear]

For those having issues with FiB and fortunate enough to play with any device that allows macros, I would advise to create a macro for this ability to make it as reliable as any other ability (almost as reliable, as camera spinning will still make it impossible to turn the camera and place your GTAoE root in a spot 30m behind you.)

 

If you have a naga, belkin (razer nostromo or whatever you wanna call it) or any other similar device (simply keyboards with a macro function work as well), just add both FiB and a left click (no delay inbetween) to the macro. You can then simply trigger FiB in any spot you wish by clicking that one key once. There's no delay, no hassle and no need to press the ability first, move your cursor then and left click subsequently anymore.

 

Hope that helps.

 

As far as the thread goes, I pretty much posted the same concerns as Powerr. The truth is pretty simple for Shadows in their current state: Shadows are generalists, who don't excel at any one thing. Specialists will always shine when the competition is high, while generalists shine in pugs.

 

I wouldn't worry too much about it, though, especially given the changes coming in 1.2. I personally believe that adding an on-demand defensive cooldown will solve most problems for Kinetic and Balance. Infiltration needs the cooldown and Clairvoyant Strike to become a real upgrade to Double Strike.

 

Not all that much, if you think about it.

[Philosomanic]

No offense, but what do you mean by HEAVY periodic damage. If your dots would have a similar mechanic to watchmen sent / anni mara, and you could spread them to several peeps then yes I'd agree, but that's not the case.

 

Okay, let's assume I'm facing a group of 4 players. I can maintain four DoTs that tick for about 350 every 2s and two DoTs that tick for 300 every 2s. I also have a DoT that ticks for about 300 every second, and that's up about 2/3 of the time. So from DoTs alone, on a group of four people, I'm doing close to 1.1k DPS from DoTs.

 

In other words, against 4 players:

2 players are taking ~200 DPS

1 player is taking ~350 DPS

1 player is taking ~600-700 DPS

 

And that's only from DoTs. Those DoTs would take 7-8 GCDs over each period of 18s. That means that I have 4 GCDs available to be CC'd, far away, or do melee damage. Also, this rotation is infinitely force-sustainable. I might have to throw in an occasional Saber Strike, but that would be no more than once every 18s cycle. I'd never be force-starved like Kinetic is.

 

 

 

First i'll take a stab at balance for high rating play.

 

Don't even try to use this against us. Every team will have at least 2 players who can cleanse your dots. If they don't, they aren't good or your "dot" damage isn't doing jack sh*t. It's understandable if you slot a balance shadow under one circumstance, and its to replace a ranged dps to *act* as one. Force is Balance has to be the most unreliable ability in this entire game, to get it to work 100% of the time "quickly", isn't happening.

 

You're wrong on two counts. First off, if I'm focusing on applying DoTs, then it would take three players with a condition-removing skill to remove them all. They'd also have to all be specced fairly deep into their healing trees; it requires a talent for the condition-removing skill to remove mental conditions.

 

For the second point, let's assume that the enemy team has two healers. Let's also assume that they each use their condition remover on cooldown (which is 4.5s for Commando, Sage, and Scoundrel). In that case, they're using every third GCD to remove DoTs rather than heal. That means that I've single-handedly debuffed the entire enemy team for -33% incoming healing. They're also using resources up, which leaves less available for healing skills. And even though removing my DoTs lowers my damage significantly, I can still CC, taunt, and do decent damage from melee and FiB.

 

Even though the condition-removing skills would cancel out a large part of my DPS, it's easy for me to reapply them. And either way, I'm still doing the same thing: applying pressure. My burst is pretty poor, but I can apply a lot of pressure to the enemy team, which means that everyone else on my team can take advantage of that and kill the enemy with ease.

 

Without someone applying team-wide pressure (AoE and/or DoTs), then the entire fight is Team A's heals and tanks versus Team B's DPS, and vice-versa. With someone like me applying pressure, the healers are stuck with three choices:

• Heal up the focus target. This means that everyone else on the team is going to be bleeding and at much lower health, making them extremely vulnerable.
  
• Spread heals around the entire team. This means that the current focus target is getting very little healing, and they're going to go down easily.
  
• Cleanse DoTs. This means that they're using 1/3 of their GCDs on skills that consume resources and provide no actual healing. Both their team and their focus target will be vulnerable.
  

 

No matter which one they choose, the fact that someone on my team is applying pressure means that their healers are less effective and more frustrated. Their team is more vulnerable because I'm here, and odds are I'm still going to end up doing large amounts of damage.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Philosomanic

[ComputerSaidNo]

I've really only played infil shadow so forgive any ignorance caused by a lack of knowledge, but I see that people are doubting the place for Balance in a group setting and I saw that Power was saying the dot abilities placed could easily be canceled out. So I'm wondering what makes the sentinel (watchman) more superior if that is a dot based spec as well? I saw a couple posts where a few of you put your ideal group and a few did have the sentinel

[Karyia]

I'm planning on Solo Q'n and seeing where it takes me. I know I am not a tier 1 player by any means, but I seem to not have that much trouble in WZ's today with 4man's popping in an out, and I am expecting more of the same. I'll take my lumps and have my individual wins here and there, but I'll be doing that all as infiltration as I just can't bring myself to play anything else.

 

I have started to notice that I'm seeing lower per hit damage numbers. Now I'm not sure if this is because of the massive influx of higher armor classes in PvP (I haven't seen a sorc in 15 matches... where did you all go?) or if the playerbase is getting smarter as Shin suggests. I've started to mix up when I blow cooldowns and I am finding much better success by not going house after the first two CS. Interesting food for thought none the less.

[Kai-Eurah-Tird]

I'm planning on Solo Q'n and seeing where it takes me. I know I am not a tier 1 player by any means, but I seem to not have that much trouble in WZ's today with 4man's popping in an out, and I am expecting more of the same. I'll take my lumps and have my individual wins here and there, but I'll be doing that all as infiltration as I just can't bring myself to play anything else.

 

I have started to notice that I'm seeing lower per hit damage numbers. Now I'm not sure if this is because of the massive influx of higher armor classes in PvP (I haven't seen a sorc in 15 matches... where did you all go?) or if the playerbase is getting smarter as Shin suggests. I've started to mix up when I blow cooldowns and I am finding much better success by not going house after the first two CS. Interesting food for thought none the less.

 

My thoughts and feelings exactly.

[grandmasterub]

Cleansing your dot is essentially a heal. You aren't reducing their output healing. Not to mention you spend full forcecost per dot but every one they cleanse reduces your damage/force.

 

The other part if your argument about pressure. While this is somewhat true there are other classes that "apply pressure" better. Assault or tactics vanguards can both spam dot pressure while also having better burst and more survivability. In tactics case the burst is slightly less but resources are basically a non issue.

 

I believe the point powerr is making is that:

 

Generally in ranked pvp situations it becomes like hardcore pve raiding where everything is min/maxed. When you min/max compare the damage, survivability & utility of each shadow role relative to their competitor the shadow always comes up short.

[Anelyn]

Okay, let's assume I'm facing a group of 4 players. I can maintain four DoTs that tick for about 350 every 2s and two DoTs that tick for 300 every 2s. I also have a DoT that ticks for about 300 every second, and that's up about 2/3 of the time. So from DoTs alone, on a group of four people, I'm doing close to 1.1k DPS from DoTs.

 

In other words, against 4 players:

2 players are taking ~200 DPS

1 player is taking ~350 DPS

1 player is taking ~600-700 DPS

 

And that's only from DoTs. Those DoTs would take 7-8 GCDs over each period of 18s. That means that I have 4 GCDs available to be CC'd, far away, or do melee damage. Also, this rotation is infinitely force-sustainable. I might have to throw in an occasional Saber Strike, but that would be no more than once every 18s cycle. I'd never be force-starved like Kinetic is.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You're wrong on two counts. First off, if I'm focusing on applying DoTs, then it would take three players with a condition-removing skill to remove them all. They'd also have to all be specced fairly deep into their healing trees; it requires a talent for the condition-removing skill to remove mental conditions.

 

For the second point, let's assume that the enemy team has two healers. Let's also assume that they each use their condition remover on cooldown (which is 4.5s for Commando, Sage, and Scoundrel). In that case, they're using every third GCD to remove DoTs rather than heal. That means that I've single-handedly debuffed the entire enemy team for -33% incoming healing. They're also using resources up, which leaves less available for healing skills. And even though removing my DoTs lowers my damage significantly, I can still CC, taunt, and do decent damage from melee and FiB.

 

Even though the condition-removing skills would cancel out a large part of my DPS, it's easy for me to reapply them. And either way, I'm still doing the same thing: applying pressure. My burst is pretty poor, but I can apply a lot of pressure to the enemy team, which means that everyone else on my team can take advantage of that and kill the enemy with ease.

 

Without someone applying team-wide pressure (AoE and/or DoTs), then the entire fight is Team A's heals and tanks versus Team B's DPS, and vice-versa. With someone like me applying pressure, the healers are stuck with three choices:

• Heal up the focus target. This means that everyone else on the team is going to be bleeding and at much lower health, making them extremely vulnerable.
  
• Spread heals around the entire team. This means that the current focus target is getting very little healing, and they're going to go down easily.
  
• Cleanse DoTs. This means that they're using 1/3 of their GCDs on skills that consume resources and provide no actual healing. Both their team and their focus target will be vulnerable.
  

 

No matter which one they choose, the fact that someone on my team is applying pressure means that their healers are less effective and more frustrated. Their team is more vulnerable because I'm here, and odds are I'm still going to end up doing large amounts of damage.

 

Am not saying you can't do aoe dmg (via spreading dots + FiB) but that sort of pressure doesn't have a place in current game pace - IMHO. Is same why lethality snipers or operatives are not shining or desired, yes they can spread dots, they can be cced while their dots tick if nobody is cleansing them (if is worth it ofc), but they won't make a big impact in any scale fight.

 

Due to how resolve works, you have brief windows to burst someone down (ie 2 CCs on the healer) to gain the advantage.

 

Until 1.2 will come out and show us what BW has in mind with each class and their ACs, as well general roles in pvp, I am pretty sure that shadow / sin tanks, vanguards assault / pt pyro's and merc / commando healers (possible with marauders / sents thrown in as well for more diversity) will be most fotm / desired for rated WZs for obvious reasons. If you have other classes you will be at a disadvantage for several reasons: low survability / mobility / low dmg or non-sustainable dmg, or difficult to switch targets and putting same dps out, lack of utility etc.

 

Is same as everyone cries sorcs and sage healers are op in 10-49, then in 50 bracket all those sorcs and sages get blown up when 2-3 peeps look at them through guard and taunts you name it. Their pull friendly is highly overshadowed by several pulls from the classes I mentioned earlier (all with shorter CD as well).

 

Same why jugg / mara and counterparts won't make great ball carriers in rated compared to current sin / shadow variants. You never used low slash on a force shroud + sprint sin tank calling it on vent to prevent the score?

 

The survability of inf / deception only strikes when in pugs, with a good tank and healers you are not as squishy anymore (am not saying the survability is fine, but is not that bad either when playing with a team, while retaining the highest burst close to pyro / assault, good single target control etc).

[MiaRB]

most Kinetic shadows on my server are going to be stuck with pugs in rated WZs. people are already getting ready for rated WZs and are starting to form reg groups and i can tell you, most Kinetic shadows are not wanted because they dont tank in pvp and a tank spec shadow can not do single target damage as well as other true single target classes/specs.

[Powerr]

You're wrong on two counts. First off, if I'm focusing on applying DoTs, then it would take three players with a condition-removing skill to remove them all. They'd also have to all be specced fairly deep into their healing trees; it requires a talent for the condition-removing skill to remove mental conditions.

 

For the second point, let's assume that the enemy team has two healers. Let's also assume that they each use their condition remover on cooldown (which is 4.5s for Commando, Sage, and Scoundrel). In that case, they're using every third GCD to remove DoTs rather than heal. That means that I've single-handedly debuffed the entire enemy team for -33% incoming healing. They're also using resources up, which leaves less available for healing skills. And even though removing my DoTs lowers my damage significantly, I can still CC, taunt, and do decent damage from melee and FiB.

 

Even though the condition-removing skills would cancel out a large part of my DPS, it's easy for me to reapply them. And either way, I'm still doing the same thing: applying pressure. My burst is pretty poor, but I can apply a lot of pressure to the enemy team, which means that everyone else on my team can take advantage of that and kill the enemy with ease.

 

Without someone applying team-wide pressure (AoE and/or DoTs), then the entire fight is Team A's heals and tanks versus Team B's DPS, and vice-versa. With someone like me applying pressure, the healers are stuck with three choices:

• Heal up the focus target. This means that everyone else on the team is going to be bleeding and at much lower health, making them extremely vulnerable.
  
• Spread heals around the entire team. This means that the current focus target is getting very little healing, and they're going to go down easily.
  
• Cleanse DoTs. This means that they're using 1/3 of their GCDs on skills that consume resources and provide no actual healing. Both their team and their focus target will be vulnerable.
  

 

No matter which one they choose, the fact that someone on my team is applying pressure means that their healers are less effective and more frustrated. Their team is more vulnerable because I'm here, and odds are I'm still going to end up doing large amounts of damage.

 

Sigh, you act like healers would be spamming cleanse on everyone that is dotted. You would be a kook to waste a gcd's on that when they can just reapply them

 

You cleanse the root. Half the time you wouldn't even need to because it is only 2 seconds.

 

Fortunately I have 7 tier 1 teammates who play to that level of the meta game.

[Philosomanic]

Sigh, you act like healers would be spamming cleanse on everyone that is dotted. You would be a kook to waste a gcd's on that when they can just reapply them

 

You cleanse the root. Half the time you wouldn't even need to because it is only 2 seconds.

 

Fortunately I have 7 tier 1 teammates who play to that level of the meta game.

 

I was responding to this:

 

First i'll take a stab at balance for high rating play.

 

Don't even try to use this against us. Every team will have at least 2 players who can cleanse your dots. If they don't, they aren't good or your "dot" damage isn't doing jack sh*t. It's understandable if you slot a balance shadow under one circumstance, and its to replace a ranged dps to *act* as one. Force is Balance has to be the most unreliable ability in this entire game, to get it to work 100% of the time "quickly", isn't happening.

 

I agree that you'd have to be a moron to waste GCDs and resource spamming cleanse. But you were the one who brought up DoT-cleansing, so I pointed out why that would be a bad idea, and why I'd still be helping if they did.

 

Realistic scenario is that most people let my DoTs tick away, which lets me do heavy, highly sustainable pressure damage.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Philosomanic

[Magnesium]

most Kinetic shadows on my server are going to be stuck with pugs in rated WZs. people are already getting ready for rated WZs and are starting to form reg groups and i can tell you, most Kinetic shadows are not wanted because they dont tank in pvp and a tank spec shadow can not do single target damage as well as other true single target classes/specs.

 

You must have some Bad KC Shadows on your server.

[MiaRB]

You must have some Bad KC Shadows on your server.

 

most KC shadows on every server are bad. why? because most started out as inf spec and they respeced as KC( because of silly info they read on forums ) but continue to play as if they are inf spec. they are worthless. the only KCs that are actually good are the few that started out as KC because they wanted to tank and understand what tanking in PVP actually means. those few will do fine when rated WZs come, as will inf spec shadows... but the KCs who dont tank will be left out in the cold cold world of pugs.

Edited March 15, 2012 by MiaRB