From what I've been able to tell from running this build myself, its the same stat priority you preach for the Akira build. 30% Crit, Capped Surge, stack up the Power. The major difference is that this spec allows to keep the utility of Low Slash, Profundity, and DPS gain from Exit Strategy instead of going all in with increasing the damage of FiB as in the Akira build. It also plays more like a cookie cutter Inf build with the flexibility of the no set up for burst as DS is used just for half price projects. There is no real rotation unless cooldowns are up. If they are up I tend to go with FP + BR, FiB, Project, Breach, then into DS, DS, Project, DS, DS, etc. Other than that, use whats avail. I tend to save FiB for those moments when I need a 30m boom to stop a cap or delay with this spec. I really like this spec as it plays more like a traditional Inf spec, where Akira plays more balance.

I play Infiltration Spec mainly, but have played all 3. 1. How do you think your Shadow spec is perceived by other classes? Infiltration spec is perceived as an underpowered DPS spec in both PvE and PvP, while Kinetic spec is perceived as overpowered in PvP and competitive in End Game PvE as an off tank. For Flashpoints and Story content, there appears to be no negative perception to any spec shadow other than most players assume all shadows play the Tank spec due its utility. For HM OP's Balance and Kinetic appear to be valued more than Infiltration due to there being the perception that sustained DPS is superior in high end PvE content than burst spec with low utility in a raid setting. For PvP Kinetic is often perceived as being over powered as their group utility is very high and that spec is also very durable, while the other two specs are considered inferior for damage dealing although Balance spec plays better due to the nature of group play in Warzones. Infiltration is often considered subpar in a group setting due to their reliance on cooldowns to be effective in burst damage and low group utility value. 2. How do you perceive your own spec? I personally love the flow of my spec. I like that it has a basic rotation feel too as I'm not as big a fan of priority systems, but the rotation is too static and predictable in PvP. There is no flexibility in order of attacks for max effectiveness. Also, initial burst is reliant on double cooldown usage and once that is over, sustained dps is lackluster and any escape moves are unfriendly to the team. Infiltration spec is great for small scale PvP but brings nothing to the table in objective play outside of the potential quick kill of a soft target. Warzones are objective based and rely on team synergies in the meta game to be effective. Infiltration specs do not play well with others and that has to be looked at.

Basically what's happening to Infil at the moment (I put that there with the hopes there will be more class changes in the 1.3 patch cycle) is that PvE on demand Adrenals (+Power), and on demand/on-hit (sweet Black Hole relics) PvE relics are being disabled for WZ play. Existing on demand PvP Relics are being changed to passive buffs (but still usable outside of WZ which is lame as PvE wins again here). To compensate, they are allowing Biochem's to make WZ adrenals and heal packs. Patch notes say a grade 6 box has enough to make 20 to 40 of them, but the box costs 1000 WZ commendations, when the adrenals cost 10 individually, thus making it not cost effective to make the biochem ones unless your swimming in commendations and want to make a few bucks on the GTN. They are also adding new "on-hit" PvP relics, which currently have not been implemented on the PTS. On top of that, Battle Readiness gets hit with a minor nerf meaning our "lets blow some one up" power up cycles is restricted to a WZ adrenal, FP, and BR. This "could" reduce an Infil's reliance on power and increase its reliance on crit to keep up consistent burst outside of the Akira spec. KC will still be king in PvP even with these changes for Shadows as a utility player and Infil's will still be good at blowing up a person every 90 seconds. The problem lies on the reliance of Chem buffs to overcome the inherent lack of power the Infil spec has with FP down. If they don't do something about it soon, Infil players will transform into Scoundrels to get their sneak up on. Very dissapointing.

In the Akira spec, are you gearing up full stalker or are you going for the 2pc +50force bonus instead of the 3 stacks of Force Potency?

I think the change to expertise is what is having such a profound effect on Inf Shadows. I still love mine, and will continue to play it. I can still blow up a target here and there, but I have found that still stacking power and surge is effective but only if there is expertise as well. Just for giggles, I've switched out my modded champ/bm gear for full recruit just to see how much the 500+ expertise world has it in 1.2 and its really a big difference. The loss in the main stat is tough to swallow but the increase in expertise to around 900 increased my survivability by a noticeable amount. Sure its all perception, but I sure felt like I lived longer in furballs, but there was also a decrease in damage output in recruit gear from my modded champ/bm set. Looks like working toward new BM/WH is the most effective way to help our performance but we shouldn't need to be that gear dependent to compete. I really really don't want to jump on the KC bandwagon so I hope they do something soon for Infiltration as the gear reliance doesn't even come close to making up for the squishy-ness

Get it and rip the hilt out.

Just checked em myself. The only change with the Mod is the addition of Expertise to the mod. For the enhancement, there is more budget in endurance and surge than power.

sounds like a plan. Did they just up the item budget on them?

I'm planning on Solo Q'n and seeing where it takes me. I know I am not a tier 1 player by any means, but I seem to not have that much trouble in WZ's today with 4man's popping in an out, and I am expecting more of the same. I'll take my lumps and have my individual wins here and there, but I'll be doing that all as infiltration as I just can't bring myself to play anything else. I have started to notice that I'm seeing lower per hit damage numbers. Now I'm not sure if this is because of the massive influx of higher armor classes in PvP (I haven't seen a sorc in 15 matches... where did you all go?) or if the playerbase is getting smarter as Shin suggests. I've started to mix up when I blow cooldowns and I am finding much better success by not going house after the first two CS. Interesting food for thought none the less.

I was watching your tutorial vid and I have a quick question on the mods. Are there any other items where you can get that Modification? I see that the champ Scoundrel gloves are where the enhancement is from, but just the BM gloves for the power mod?

A Sent is built around sustained DPS and powerful defensive cooldowns. A Infiltration Shadow will put out more burst, but a Watchmen Sent will put out more overall damage on the WZ scoreboard (if you care about that). Both classes are powerful 1v1 but a Sent/Kinetic Shadow will provide more durability if your one to jump into the fray and have at it. It is possible to put a 600k number in a stalemate Voidstar WZ, but that is not something that is realistic. Basically it comes down to what your play style is. The Shadow is much more flexible in what roles it can fill. It can be a tank (Kinetic), burst dps (Infiltration), or pressure(Balance). A Sent can be a force heavy burst (Focus Spec), or med-high pressure with Watchmen Spec. Also, only the Kinetic Shadow spec is as durable as ANY Sent spec. The rest of the shadow specs being more squishy.

Explain how the build is not competitive. What are the deficiencies in the spec? By design a High Burst class will have low sustained DPS and will be less durable. The lower the DPS the higher the survivability, the Higher the DPS the lower the survivability. Not sure if that's what your getting at, but its hardly a deficiency. I am neither ignorant nor resistant to change. What I am is that I am not willing to dismiss an entire spec due to perception or lack of understanding. I just want to make one off topic point here. All builds of the Shadow are viable in PvP. Each has a specific role to fill and that is one of the great strengths of this class. You have the ability to be a defender, or a bomb dropper, or a dot-em-up-and-laugh pressure player, or a hybrid defender/harasser. How is that not awesome? Oh, and this isn't WoW. WoW PvP was NOT GOOD. TM v SS battles in Vanilla, to 72 hour AV's, to T3 Roflstompers in AB, to Resilience, to Stacking Resilience, to Arena's being a burst fest, to Arena's becoming 30 min mana drain duels, to RMP teams being the only way to 2200+. WoW's PvP was an exercise in how important TTK is in PvP, and how you can't balance it around health pools and healing. SWTOR PvP is not all wine and roses either, but it is not WoW. I respect the ability of those who were able to brave the ladder to 2200+ in WoW as did not have the patience, nor did like the requirement to min/max gear to get there.

A 4 second stun will use 3 bars of resolve for 4 seconds. Any other stun/incap will put them over the cap and any reasonable player will have saved their purge for this, meaning the most you'll have them locked out for is 5 seconds. I have been able too, consistently I might add, to pull of a full stun lock in a group furball. Even if I don't, if I cause the team to peel off whomever to defend the healer, I still have done my job. Of course you wouldn't use an incap during an assist train and I'm starting to get the feeling that your not looking outside that box. Think more of what a Skald would do in an 8v8 classic DAoC match up. If you want a place where stealth had no place, that would be it. On the Ret v MS Warrior, that's two Plate Melee DPS. Both have equivalent durability and utility (Ret was more burst and interrupt, while MS was more control and heal countering). While Ret did have more burst, burst was not king in WoW because of Resilience, who's sole reason for existence was to counter burst classes. Because of that, burst was not as important as durability in rated PvP in WoW, Healing was. You needed to counter the healing as everything boiled down to mana drain/attrition battles. This is the real reason was an MS warrior was so much more compelling to bring, and I agree with you in reference to WoW. A Sent/Mara and an Infiltration Shadow are not equals in your comparison to WoW. If you wanted to draw a better parallel to WoW then Sents/Mara are MS warriors where a Infiltration Shadow is a Assassination Rogue. I also didn't bring up the Sorc/Sage utility. You said that one of the detractors for an Infiltration Shadow was its light armor and low durability. The Sorc/Sage is also a light armor and low durability class. I was just looking for you to defend that position more. I personally feel that at least one Sorc/Sage is necessary for small scale PvP. You also seem to argue that its an either or situation. Why can't both a Sent/Mara and an Infiltration shadow be taken?

Since I never once brought up skill in the discussion, as I was discussing mechanics, I'll ignore the skill comment as it is irrelevant to the discussion. An Infiltration shadow can use Spinning Kick and Low Slash and not cap resolve as each is one bar. The interrupt does not affect resolve either. The lockouts I'm referring too are not ment to defeat an opponent, but to assist the team as a whole. By preventing a healer from healing for a whole 12 seconds almost always results in the death of a second healer or other opponent. That is where I think your missing the value of an Infiltration Shadow. On the Burst damage point, why would you want unpredictable burst damage? On-demand bomb dropping is what all burst dps classes want. Need that healer down now? See that guy over there with 50% health? Pop Force Infusion, BR, and Relic (consumable too if you wish) and down they go. I don't think anyone could every convince me that this type of burst-on-demand is a negative in PvP. In a node battle, you'll only need it once to turn the tide. I still don't get the babysitting comment. Infiltration Shadows are not as durable as a Sent/Mara as they are in light armor for sure, but I also don't see how that's a detractor in small scale battles. Sorc/Sages are much less durable yet I don't see you saying they are no good. Are you saying they need to be guarded to be effective? There is nothing in game mechanics that says that is true. Do they need to be the focus heal target? Well so does everyone else when they have 4 people beating on them. As far as the hard counter comment, it comes with the defensive cooldowns available to the Sent/Mara and their main damage mechanism. The 50% health for 99% damage reduction is a complete counter to any burst damage. Good Sents/Maras who use that at the right time turn the tide of the fight. I have trouble with the good ones, as I should because while an Infiltration Shadow does get Resilience to wipe the dots, a good Sent/Mara will reapply. As a burst class, anything that completely or almost completely mitigates that burst classifies as a hard counter in my book. Sents/Maras medium-high output combined with dots AND 3 solid defensive cooldowns are enough for me to call them that. Of course, if those cooldowns are not available then its a different story. As for the Sents/Mara can't burst, I never said that. I said that they were pressure players with sustained DPS as their trademark. Of course they can do burst damage, but it is not as high nor as consistent as that of a Infiltration Shadow/Scrapper Scoundrel. It is an accepted assumption that Infiltration Shadows/Scrapper Scoundrels are the highest melee burst damage classes. You also keep making the comment that there are better AC's and that a Shadow gimps the team because they are squishy but offer nothing to explain your position. I'm curious as to why you think that being squishy with high damage is a liability as you have not made any comment about Sages/Sorcs gimping a team. As I stated in my previous reply your making some assumption that sustained damage will be king in a rated WZ, but there is no information to back that up other than antidotal evidence which is too circumstantial for us to base any argument on. What if these WZ's are pugable? What if they are 8v8? What if they are 4v4? What if they are Arena's with one and done? Until that information comes out, there will be no argument anyone can make about what is/can/will be kind in a rated WZ. If you want to continue our debate on the mechanics between them I will gladly continue, but there is no debate to be had on who's better in a rated WZ as their rules are unknown at this time.

I disagree completely. Sents/Maras are killing machines...when they have their cooldowns. They are also the hard counter to Shadows/Assassins. Medium Armor, MS, and an IWIN button every few min does not make them the end all be all of melee dps. Pressure players have their place, but will not kill anyone one on one (without cooldowns), and are just part of the machine in a 4v4 or WZ. I do not see how an Infiltration Shadow is any less useful. Their lockdown abilities are far superior to any other class in the game. They can lock out a healer for over 12 seconds if done correctly. I fail to see how that would not be beneficial in rated play. With the TTK in this game, along with the HPS healers are putting out, AoE will not kill anyone alone in a small scale skirmish, which is why you would want a single-target abuser. Oh wait, aren't Watchmen single target pressure players? Your entire argument is based on that just because Sents/Maras are more durable and bring a MS debuff that they are superior to a Infiltration shadow. No Sent/Mara can blow up a target as fast as a Infiltration Shadow/Scrapper Scoundrel can. They can not lock down a target like a Infiltration Shadow can. Both classes rely on cooldowns for survivability (Force Cloak, Resistance, Deflection for a Shadow, Saber Ward, Force Camo, Guarded by the Force for Sents). Sents have more passive damage mitigation due to medium armor, but a Shadow has the ability to have more mitigation in Combat Stance, although I personally don't think its a viable trade off of for the shadow. Without going further down a blow by blow ability comparison, it looks to me that neither is better than the other. You may put more of an emphasis on survivability, but being the last one standing when the rest of your team is dead is not winning. The first kill always decides the fight in a small scale battle. A Sent/Mara can not turn the tide alone, while an Scoundrel/Shadow can. That does not make Shadow/Scoundrels better, they just have different strengths.

Seems like there are 2 main topics in this thread. 1) Is Inf viable in PvP? - Yes, it is. Tons of utility, great burst, really good 1on1. They are essentially the hard counter to a caster and controller of healers. I play Inf spec and find it to be more my liking than the tank specs as I love the hit and run play style it provides. 2) Is Inf viable in rated PvP? - Since we have no idea how this is going to work, all conversations on this are conjecture and theory. Based off of the small data set, that itself is anecdotal, lends to the theory that there will be three types of 4 man "power" teams. Team 1 consists of a Heavy Tank, Melee DPS, and 2 healers. This is often perceived to be a Vigilance Guardian, or a Tactics Vanguard, with a Watchmen Sent or Balance Shadow, and a combination of two Sage healers or Commando healers. With that set up, your set to outlast, not out burst, your opponents. Team 2 consists of a Heavy Tank, Ranged DPS, and 2 Healers. Same Tank set up, but the dps is a Gunslinger, Gunnery Commando, or a DPS Sage. Healer set up the same. This team focuses on more mobility and has more DPS than team 1, but is a bit squishier due to being ranged heavy. Team 3 consists of a Heavy Tank, Burst DPS, and 2 Healers. Same Tanks as team 1 and 2, but adds a Kinetic Shadow as an option for a tank for added Battlefield control. DPS choices here are a DPS sage, Gunnery Commando, Scrapper/Dirty Fighting Scoundrel, Infiltration Shadow, and the usual two healer set up. This team is defined around initial engagement. Loaded with control and burst, this team's goal is to smush an opposing healer, while controlling the other, to get the first kill. As Powerr, and Taugrim have posted many times, SWTOR PvP tends to favor DPS and the kill. A team with more overall DPS will always be more successful than another at the same skill and gear level, and that after the first kill the other side falls quickly. This tends to provide credibility to the theory that if rated PvP is 4 on 4 arena style, that a burst team would perform better than attrition teams in most battles. My personal opinion is that all classes will have their place in rated PvP. I completely disagree with the though process that says that Infiltration Shadows have no place in it, as those arguments tend to come across as a justification to the poster that they chose the "superior" spec. Again, this is all just opinion, conjecture, and darts at a dart board theories as BW has not released their rating systems.

I've been Infiltration spec for the entire time on my shadow and I feel your pain on the 300k medal. I've also come very close (full champ gear minus weapon at the moment) a couple of times, but never hit it. The key, as a previous poster said, is how you control the opposing sides healers and your ability to quickly take out an opponent, especially in a group scrum. I don't buy that Inf shadows are useless in a large melee as I don't seem to have any trouble whatsoever in them. If its an Death from Above AoE spam fest, sure your gonna get rocked so get out of the fire, but thats true for all classes. Group encounters in WZs are won or lost in the first 20 seconds. The team that gets the first kill increases their chances of winning the enounter from a numbers and morale standpoint. That is where I tend to find my most satisifing fights. Sneak in with the group, target the healer, blow them up, then do your best to survive to the end. Kinetic Shadows play completely different as they are more hardy and can sustain pressure more consistently than an Inf Shadow. You will get more medals as Kinetic. You will have a longer uptime on targets as Kinetic. You will also be harder to take down as Kinetic. You will not, however, be able to blow up a target on demand. You will not be that good at hit and run tactics. I'm with the other poster who made the comment on the "Kinetic > All" people. I see more and more tank specs in WZ's and it kind of aggrivates me. I feel that too many players are using the spec as a crutch to compensate for lack of skill/gear. I don't want come across as Inf requires more skill, as it doesn't, but it just feels like its looked upon as inferior for no reason other than the perception and low medal count.

As the weeks have gone on, I've seen less and less spinny sabers and more and more rock halos on both sides. I'm the only shadow left in my guild that hasn't gone Kinetic, and I personally do not plan to. I love the blow-em-up style of my class, and I'm still very effective in all the game. I'm starting to get the feeling that the tanky spec is becoming somewhat of the fotm spec for PvP. I mean I don't mind being a novelty in huttball. Whats it like on your servers?

You are correct sir

I currently run this spec and it is completely viable. The 2 pts in Tech Mastery can be swapped with the 2 in Applied Force with about the same benefit. As CS/DS is our main attack that is mitigated by armor, the armor pen bonus calculated slightly greater than the 6% in Applied Force, but not by huge numbers so you can't really go wrong. It is also possible to trade off the damage for the 2% avoidance increase/force regen of DBSD. This spec is a modified Upheaval spec, where you trade off the utility of 100% uptime on Force Slow for a damage or defensive modifier. Personally, I find that I have no trouble keeping a target in melee range during any meaningful battle in a WZ, so I'm okay with the trade off. Plus, in the Powerr Burst Thread, there have been discussions that it can be superior to the 0/33/8 spec. All in all, it is a viable single target spec. Great for assist trains or lone wolfing. This spec will NOT get you 300k damage in a WZ or any of those other score board epeen inflators, but you will feel completely effective in taking down most targets. So long as your willing to lose the some of the utility that the Kinetic specs have. On a side note, I find these changes to be awesome because we not discussing the lack of an effective spec, but how we have multiple ways of being effective in PvP. There is no "best" set up. Kinetics are good for utility and AoE damage with a limited burst potential. Infs are great for high burst and lockdowns with lower suvivability. Balance has always been, and will now be even more, of a pressure player with sustained dps over time. They all work in their own way and all apply to specific play styles. It makes me feel good for picking a class with so many ways to be effective.

Really? He just made it so that players sub 60 valor gain a Cent piece every 3 days and a Champ piece every week and a half or so, and you suggest to have prices raised? 3 days of WZ dailies equals one piece of Cent, 3 days of Ilum PvP dailies equals one peice of Cent gear,and each weekly equals a piece of Cent gear. So in 3 days of PvP quests, you'll have 12 bags from rewards alone with extra bags from WZ comms and Merc comms. That will lead to 180 Cent Comms and 84 Champ comms. Thats 4 pieces of Cent gear and 1 piece of Champ gear per WEEK from QUESTS ALONE. That seems pretty sweet. Why would you want to make it longer?!?

Expertise rating is a secondary stat on PvP gear from lvl 46 and higher. The stat is used to bridge the power gap between PvE gear of the same tier as well as provide 3 passive bonuses to the player in PvP combat. PvP Expertise raiting in PvP provides a bonus to outgoing damage, reduction to incoming damage, and a percentage to ignore the Trauma debuff. Trauma is a debuff placed on players who have engaged in PvP activity. It is a flat 30% penalty to all heals casted on the player. Does not affect outgoing heals Formulas for calculating the effects are below. Taken from sithwarrior.com Expertise gain from raiting is capped at 20%, and is affected by diminishing returns. 5000+ raiting is required to get to 19.9%, which makes it impossible to hit the rating cap. Expertise as a stat can go over 20% though, but only though outside means like a buff. The Overcharge pot and the WZ Zerker buff both add 15% to Expertise, not Expertise rating, thus yielding a signifigant power boost. Example 1: As you see in example 1, a player with expertise has an advantage against a player without if all their other stats are the same. In a real game situation the results are no where near as clean. Here is an example where both players have expertise, but one has more than the other. Example 2: In Example 2, Player A still does more damage and has a greater damage reduction for having more Expertise, but it is no where near as large as it is when the opponent has no expertise. In the final example, we'll look at it when both player have the same amount of expertise. Example 3 At equal expertise levels, the bonus is canceled out by the damage reduction, thus negating any bonuses. The players are on equal footing.

Genius!

Your math is wrong. The attack isn't 112% of base, its 11% damage modifer or reduction of the attack. Ability base damage is determined by core stats and then damage is calculated. After that, then expertise is then a modifer to that damage. In your example of a player with equal stats, yet one has expertise and the other doesn't, the player with expertise takes less damage, and does more damage at the same percentage, as you have stated. Where your wrong is that you can not combine the two as damage outgoing and damage incoming are apples to oranges as they are affected by completely different modifers.

Here is something I posted in another thread that might be what your getting at