Why do so many in mmo's now hate grouping?

[MMornard]

Games are becoming more and more for casuals(which sucks), so with all the casuals running around in game you dont know who to trust.

 

The reason I don't group is that I hate being derided as a casual player. Yes, I AM a casual player. If that bothers you, YOU have the problem, not me.

 

And the message I quoted is exactly WHY I refuse all group requests and turn off general chat immediately.

[Elyx]

Nice to see a general Topic with a good conversation for once (a few ninnies, not bad though). Kudos to the OP and for the paced and intelligent responses.

 

Its interesting to see how many different aspects of gaming that people are dealing with, but more interesting is the simple aspect that it seems everyone agrees on.

 

The attitude of the general public in MMO's has gotten worse.

 

your initial comment about how MMO's used to be better is telling OP. The real question is...is the community worse because people stopped being a part of it, or did people stop being part of the community because it got worse?

 

My time in MMO's (like many others in this post, 10+ years) has lent me to believe that the community has gotten worse. I too pine for the "good old days" when grouping was a fun and social event. but if you look at many of those games in the past, they emphasized play time over rewards. there were certainly rewards, but you got far more rewards for the group then you did by simply obtaining marks/tokens/whatever.

 

It's not like my view changed overnight. It's not like I suddently decided to stop playing with groups. but over time, as I continually came back to the games I enjoyed, I saw less and less of the aspects of the game THAT I enjoyed actually there. I used to love grouping. even hanging out at portal stones you would talk, discuss classes and specs, and wonder where they heck that healer was running too.

 

it was fun, it was relaxed, and i enjoyed it. But over time, things changed. In part, i blame the market. companies realized there was an untapped market available, so they generalized their games to take advantage of that. quick reward systems came in place soon after. Everything was simplified to give everyone a fast and easy result. groups changed with this as well, and I lost allot of desire to do them. eventually, MMO's even had to change how they grouped people. it's almost as if they had to band-aid an issue they had created themselves.

 

I remember my last sojourn into WoW (before I gave it up for good), and I had heard about the random LFD tool. to me that was the death of the early MMO game. it was no longer about the community...it was about a slot machine. pull the lever, deal with a few personalities online for 20m, and you get a token! Wasn't it Pavlov's Dogs that proved that idea...decades ago....

 

Seems the MMO developers have re-realized a very simple aspect of the human nature.

 

Not that all changes have been bad. Graphics design, skill and tactical improvements, storylines and plots...all great things. but they overshadow a much deeper issue.

 

It's ironic that you OP, are worried about the direction MMO's are going with community, when most the people in this thread seem to agree with you. most of the reporters here are playing solo BECAUSE of the community, and where it's gone. But this is definitely partly the fault of the development of the MMO's themselves.

 

so...are MMO's going in the wrong direction? yes. But most of us veteran players don't have any control over that. It's the teeming mobs, and their new internet mentalities, that have spurned this. most of us players that wish for the old times are just sitting back and playing solo...waiting for a game that will put the dev time into something that is not mainstream, but still a well made game. that won't attract the mob. Or, I should add (as an edit), they are sticking to their well known buddys in a guild, or a small group of people.

 

Here's a nice story. The guild IM currently in (very small) was formed out of sheer luck one night by a group of 4 people, most of us well into our middle ages, with kids, who hit it off well on a few heroics on Dromund Kaas. We formed a small guild and were loving it. we all have severe alt-itis, and each play at least 3-5 toons at the same time. there's never nothing to do in our guild, whether its running a low level Fp with an alt, or running a planet for holocrons, or simply helping another guildee out. and we only have about 10 people in the guild

 

It's out there...but it's not the norm anymore. it's the exception. which is the real problem.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Elyx

[postiepat]

The era where MMO players used to be new to MMOs is over; most people playing SWTOR have probably played quite a few other MMOs before - these people are probably too jaded from all the negative experiences they've had while grouping, and are growing tired of experiencing content with new players at a slower pace.

 

While I miss the times where players would group up even for the most soloable of quests, I think the trend is for players to become more isolated from each other nowadays; the way content is designed in most MMOs is such that it rewards you for hitting 50 earlier and doing end-game content.

 

Blizzard may have the timing right again, with Diablo 3 this time. I know I'm looking forward to a solo based on-line game. However I do enjoy SWTOR I just don't see myself staying past the class stories and I don't think I'll be seeing much if any group content.

[terminova]

I see so many posts now how ppl hate being in guilds and being forced to group to do some of the things in game.

 

Why in the heck are these ppl playing an mmo? If these ppl had their way we would be playing a single player game ( which at this point we are not far from ) but they are only making it worse.

 

What has happened to the mmo gaming world? It used to be great ppl wanted to group and all that stuff now it seems ppl have become very antisocial.

 

I'd be more worried if you meant "caustic and rude" by anti-social.

 

They aren't really making anything worse in that the game is what it is: a lot of solo-leveling content with optional group content which is the direction a lot of MMOs are going these days because not everyone does have the time to find 3-4 other people to group up with to play a game. Even when playing pen-and-paper RPGs getting 5 people together at one time with conflicting schedules can be problematic.

[Vecke]

Also, for many casual players (I mean that literally, not as a classification), it's not that they hate groups. It's that they are very often not welcome in groups.

[fungihoujo]

People want easy mode, which for many years it has been this way, even more so in recent years.

 

Old school gaming was difficult where if you died you died, and had to restart. People hate that now a days, so them wanting solo content is only natural.

 

This seems to get brought up alot- but what's always left out is that those old school games tended to take an hour or two to beat if you didn't die- their longevity was entirely in their difficulty.

 

It's different to spend a half hour playing a game only to die and restart from the beginning, than it is to spend 500 hours playing a character to die and restart, or, 100 hours raiding only to lose all your gear in a single death.

 

There are, naturally, games that appeal to that group- but it's an extreme niche, and games like Darkfall end up with a couple thousand subs at peak.

 

 

As for solo? Probably because most players are jerks and thus, people would rather play without that. It's not even so much a hate of grouping as it is a hate of needing to group to advance- solo play more or less ends at 50 and boils down to repeating dailies for minor rewards. People want something more fulfilling that's either solo or easy pick up- like PQs. I'm actually a bit surprised there aren't PQs in the game- was the only good pve thing WAR did.

 

 

Another thing is- many of the things solo players enjoy aren't in right now- there's little when it comes to pet/mount collection, building on codex, and tracking compared to the WAR tome or WoW achievements- ratings in pvp might be a step in the right direction, but there's still a great deal more could be done for keeping stats- which gives solo players things to go for- an example for me was, I'd lost interest in raiding, but wanted a proto drake- so my goal was the red proto from doing heroic achievements- sure, that was parties, but generally small groups are easy enough to get into that you don't need a guild to manage it- put in some hardmode FP achievements and people will have something challenging to aim for, from casuals to hardcores.

[Perringaiden]

Too much overthink here.

 

Humans learn faster from pain than pleasure. Burn yourself in a fire and you're not likely to do it again soon. We bred out those that do eons ago (mostly).

 

So when one douche makes it painful, it'll take 10 good groups to overcome that. Since people already are avoiding groups because of the first pain, it's harder to find the ten good groups, spreading them out causing the effect to be less. Couple that with "Internet + Anonimity" theory and you can guarantee tha people's experience goes downhill.

 

Until enough people wake up and stop being douches "because no one can stop them" this will continue to spiral, teaching those douches that this is the appropriate behaviour making it worse. And so on...

Edited March 12, 2012 by Perringaiden

[Emperor_Troll]

I see so many posts now how ppl hate being in guilds and being forced to group to do some of the things in game.

 

Why in the heck are these ppl playing an mmo? If these ppl had their way we would be playing a single player game ( which at this point we are not far from ) but they are only making it worse.

 

What has happened to the mmo gaming world? It used to be great ppl wanted to group and all that stuff now it seems ppl have become very antisocial.

 

because customers can do what they want with their time and money.

 

because game companies are providing more gameplay options for customers so they can earn more money.

 

because mmo does not mean forced teaming.

 

because.

[Elysith]

...

 

Here's a nice story. The guild IM currently in (very small) was formed out of sheer luck one night by a group of 4 people, most of us well into our middle ages, with kids, who hit it off well on a few heroics on Dromund Kaas. We formed a small guild and were loving it. we all have severe alt-itis, and each play at least 3-5 toons at the same time. there's never nothing to do in our guild, whether its running a low level Fp with an alt, or running a planet for holocrons, or simply helping another guildee out. and we only have about 10 people in the guild

 

It's out there...but it's not the norm anymore. it's the exception. which is the real problem.

 

That's the best setting indeed.

 

Lucky you. The few nice peoples I started to play with on a regular basis, got caught back by real life activities and do not play much anymore, and when they do it's only for a short time of PvP, and sadly all my pre-existing friends from past games do not play SWTOR

 

Hopefully being able to play SWTOR solo for a big part is possible. Because If I was forced to randomly group in such conditions to progress in the game, I would probably stop playing.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Elysith

[Draig]

I have 2 level 50, and other than doing the very first Flashpoint on the first 50 a handful of times with other randoms, I have never done any PvE raid type stuff. A couple of normal heroics on certain planets as I go along, if I fancy it, but that is about it.

 

I only do planet and story missions.

 

I PvP the rest. Solo.

 

Why?

 

1. I can't be arsed with rude, loot grabbing monkeys who need on everything then argue about it. PvE in general bores me, but when this happens I just don't understand how anyone can be that greedy, or the "couldn't care less" attitude about others your actually grouping with. So I rarely bother.

 

2. I played MMO's so many years now, seen it all before, every possible drama you can think of, in and out of guilds, and I can't be arsed with any of the drama again, in a game, where I'm here to enjoy my spare time instead of pandering to ego and hormone driven teenagers who think the game is their life.

 

3. There is no need to group with anyone, other than PvP and even that is in a PUG, to achieve everything I personally wish to in this game. This is a sad state of affairs compared to the glory days of early DAoC for example, but such is the way MMO's have gone to pander to today's gamer. While it suits my lifestyle, and I take advantage of it, I think it is a terrible direction to go in for MMO's.

 

4. I have not looked for a guild, if I join one it will be the right one for me. Casual, but PvP orientated (as I'm on a PvP server). Almost every guild advert I have seen in chat has been full of spelling errors and clearly run by an egocentric child, which simply doesn't appeal to me. When I join one (if) I will only group with them.

 

5. I'm a grumpy old b***ard at the best of times, and all I wish to do after a day in work is come online and PvP for a bit without having to commit about 6 hours of my spare time to killing some boss in a raid for a small chance to get gear, when I can instead solo my way to get similar gear from PvP and have more fun doing so.

 

6. This game is so easy to hit level 50 in, I don't need any help from anyone to get there. So I don't. This is a bad thing in MMO's in my opinion, but if they didn't allow me to hit top level solo, I probably wouldn't play due to my life commitments.

[Dawgtide]

Baloney. Most guilds are just as bad as most PUGs. If you don't want to raid for the latest "leet warez" the vast majority of guilds have no time for you.

 

I play this game because it's like KOTOR only more so, and I can play with my wife. I know there is content I'll never get to, but I'm perfectly OK with that.

 

I'd rent one of these "empty" servers just for the two of us if I could.

 

You may want to try out the test server. I know I may. The test server on EQ was very quiet and a mature community.

[EJedi]

I have seen this trend over that last few years in just about every new mmo, I know back in the days pre-wow you pretty much had to group to swat a fly, and if your friends and guildies were not on unless you pugged it you made no progression that day, these days you can pretty much get to max level with little or no grouping, I like to be able to progress my toon when no one is on, but playing alone in a social game gets boring fast, I stay grouped 90% of my online time.

 

I dunno where this trend started, is it console players, but now there is allot of online play there as well, maybe the instant gratification generation does not have to ,wait on other or figures things do not go fast enough, I dunno /shrug

 

No. We grew up. We have jobs. We aren't the same college kids with near-infinite time that we once were.

 

We realized that the amount of time we put into games like UO and EQ was ridiculous.

 

The new generation of gaming kids aren't willing to put up with the same crap we put up with, and we aren't ABLE to.

 

Times change. People don't sit around the radio every night, waiting for the next episode of The Shadow. People aren't very willing to accept new movies being released in black and white either.

 

This is just the way it is now. Try to enjoy it or find something else to do.

[iconchrono]

While I firmly believe that no ONE person can speak for everyone on this issue, I can tell you why I, personally, am hesistant to group.

 

People on the internet today are by and large selfish a-holes. They're anti-social, go go go type of people that get pissy if things aren't done their way. Either they're impatient and want to blitz through content while min/maxing and "suggesting" better ways you can play or they go crazy slow and seem to either be constant afk without notice and lack the basic skills of WASD and left and right clicking.

 

As far as guilds go they seem to be either completely disfunctional and no different then just joining a chat room while playing, or they take themselves waaaay too seriously with rules and requirements and applications and all types of bs just to join a group that plays a game.

 

Unfrortunately the days of gaming old when gaming itself was niche enough that most people you met online were polite, reasonable people that were just as excited to explore and experuence an mmo world as you were are long gone. :/

[NoxiousAlby]

Apparently you can't seek out or put up with each other, either.

For good reason though, as a previous poster added we have other priorities. Whats the point of grouping with someone only to ask them to stand around and wait 10min because the wife or one of the children need our help with something?

 

I still think it's instant-grat, because yours is also the same demographic which keeps claiming they don't have the time for this or that, nor can they accept it taking one month to achieve instead of the one week it does for "pubeuscent adolesence and uni/college students."

Your confusing us with Gen Y, we prefer to work for something. We may no longer have the time or be prepared to make the commitment to raid but when we are on we like to work for what we have. I played wow for 7 years and raided for 4 of them, before i left Cata I had run ZA & ZG over 500 times. We dont mind a grind as long as theres a reward at the end of the tunnel, difference is we will grind when we have the time not when some punk tells us we have to.

 

The only thing I can relate to is the inability to adhere to a raid schedule, even though it's the most practical means for engaging in raid content if you have a limited schedule. But that just comes back to asking your demographic to settle for what they themselves can achieve given their own effort, in this case asking them to settle for not seeing raid content first-hand while it's still relevant.

I dont think i've ever seen a thread here asking for raid content to be more accessible, in fact according to BW own figures 38% of players participated in raids in the first 3 months. An incredibly low figure given the ease of normal Op's or so I have heard, this figure would indicate that the far greater majority of players dont want to adhere to a schedule.

 

Personally, I'm not concerned about missing out on raid content, and so I don't sit on a forum and whine about how I'm not seeing a given raid.

Perhaph's not but your post does smack of "whine"

 

What BW need to do is introduce solo versions of flashpoints and even raids that can be done with 3-5 companions to give the other 62% of players something to grind.

Edited March 12, 2012 by NoxiousAlby

[NoxiousAlby]

its actually a small segment most of the veteran MMOplayers want more grouping and more guild content. its usally the foodstamp solo player that makes those post. they dont sub in MMO's more than a cycle and probably make up less then 10 % of the gamming community.

Guess again?

 

If only 38% of players participated in Operations (BW own figures) that are apparently very easy then I would hazard to guess that solo players would make upto 50%+ of the playersbase. You fail to realize that we will group for flashpoints when we have to but prefer to play solo.

[NoxiousAlby]

In my very humble opinion based on my admittedly anecdotal experience in several mmo's... the evolution of the group and guild mentality has done more damage to grouping than solo players and game designers could ever do.

 

Do you like to quest slowly and listen to (or read) the quest? Good luck finding a group that will tolerate it.

 

Do you want to slowly explore a dungeon? Good luck finding a group that will tolerate it.

 

Do you think that you only have to build your specs enough to kill the mob? Do you think that it doesn't matter if you kill the mob in 4 seconds as opposed to 9 seconds as long as you win the fight? Good luck finding a group that won't consider you a drain.

 

Are you willing to take a slight hit on stats (as long as you can still beat the enemies) because you really love the way that armor looks? Good luck finding a group that won't consider you a drain and an "RPer".

 

Absolutely true story: The last time I joined a WZ, as soon as I loaded in, a person on our team immediately started giving orders on who has to do what, based on their class. He told everybody what they had to do and where they needed to go (some of which made no sense), then he said, "And if you're not willing to do your part here, plz log out and uninstall the game b/c you don't belong here."

 

That's why I don't typically avoid grouping. It has nothing to do with "easy mode." It's very rare in MMOs where grouping is harder than soloing. It's a light-speed blast through a dungeon, maximizing every second, then watching people bicker because they ran a parse and saw that one person didn't do "their fair share" of the damage. I just don't consider that fun.

Very very true....................all of the above

[Ghaiana]

I think also a reason is that more and more people play MMO's with rl friends/family/collegues. MMO's have become more mainstream over the last few years, so the chances that you know people near you who play MMO's have increased as well. And it's more fun to talk about the game you played last night together than about the weather.

[Biytor]

I see so many posts now how ppl hate being in guilds and being forced to group to do some of the things in game.

 

Why in the heck are these ppl playing an mmo? If these ppl had their way we would be playing a single player game ( which at this point we are not far from ) but they are only making it worse.

 

What has happened to the mmo gaming world? It used to be great ppl wanted to group and all that stuff now it seems ppl have become very antisocial.

 

 

Waiting...

 

People have been conditioned to get what they want when they want it. Having to wait for another person to log in or get to the group is an imposition to them. Just another side effect of the instant gratification society...

Edited March 12, 2012 by Biytor

[archifikoss]

I see so many posts now how ppl hate being in guilds and being forced to group to do some of the things in game.

 

Why in the heck are these ppl playing an mmo? If these ppl had their way we would be playing a single player game ( which at this point we are not far from ) but they are only making it worse.

 

What has happened to the mmo gaming world? It used to be great ppl wanted to group and all that stuff now it seems ppl have become very antisocial.

 

I'm playing because it's a Bioware RPG in a Star Wars universe. I dislike MMOs and especially WoW-style ones, but this is the spiritual successor to KOTOR. I wanted KOTOR 3, got TOR instead but so far I'm quite happy with it.

 

Also, my gaming time is the only time I have to myself. So why would I want contact with others at this time? Though if my RL friends were playing I'd probably be grouped up more often.

 

Don't like it? Too bad.

Edited March 12, 2012 by archifikoss

[Firolaine]

Too much grouping is a headache.

 

I play a healer. I don't mind running 1-2 dungeons a day. I hate when I'm pestered to heal 5-6 dungeons a day because I don't have time to lvl my alts, do my dailies or anything else I'd like to do.

 

Example: Today, our guild has 12 lvl 50's online. I'm one of 2 healers that are level capped.

 

I log on and get pestered to heal dungeons. I heal False Emperor and Black Talon Heroic. Okay, time for me to go some dailies so I can get some commendations for my rakata implants. Nope.

 

a DPS starts spamming me to do boarding party and Kaon under Siege. I said no, because the day before I had done both with him and I don't like running dungeons in a row because it makes them boring. He gets into my guild and think that's enough of a reason to repeatedly ask and try and guilt me into healing a hard mode. No means no. So I when I try doing my ilum dailies I see in /gchat, "Well, we could go do boarding party if someone healed us", I just logged off.

 

Like I said, too much grouping is a headache.

[GellonSW]

Too much grouping is a headache.

 

I play a healer. I don't mind running 1-2 dungeons a day. I hate when I'm pestered to heal 5-6 dungeons a day because I don't have time to lvl my alts, do my dailies or anything else I'd like to do.

 

Example: Today, our guild has 12 lvl 50's online. I'm one of 2 healers that are level capped.

 

I log on and get pestered to heal dungeons. I heal False Emperor and Black Talon Heroic. Okay, time for me to go some dailies so I can get some commendations for my rakata implants. Nope.

 

a DPS starts spamming me to do boarding party and Kaon under Siege. I said no, because the day before I had done both with him and I don't like running dungeons in a row because it makes them boring. He gets into my guild and think that's enough of a reason to repeatedly ask and try and guilt me into healing a hard mode. No means no. So I when I try doing my ilum dailies I see in /gchat, "Well, we could go do boarding party if someone healed us", I just logged off.

 

Like I said, too much grouping is a headache.

 

Sounds more like a crappy guildmate to me.

[Qoojo]

I like the multiplayer feel, but I don't feel like taking the risk of ruining my game experience with childish and rude behavior. More than 50% of the time there is some annoying behavior when PUGing it. Why does my choice of soloing bother you so much? You can still do instances and such.

[Cerion]

I see so many posts now how ppl hate being in guilds and being forced to group to do some of the things in game.

 

Why in the heck are these ppl playing an mmo? If these ppl had their way we would be playing a single player game ( which at this point we are not far from ) but they are only making it worse.

 

What has happened to the mmo gaming world? It used to be great ppl wanted to group and all that stuff now it seems ppl have become very antisocial.

 

Why even bother asking the question you already know the answer to? Let's face it..you've been around MMOs a number of years, haven't you. You've been in MMO forums and discussed this very topic before, or have read similar.

 

And yet here you are, asking the tired old question of "why do players solo in an online game?"

 

The question really is: Why won't you listen to the answers given to you time and again? Why doesn't it sink in?

Edited March 12, 2012 by Cerion

[Calei]

I see so many posts now how ppl hate being in guilds and being forced to group to do some of the things in game.

 

Why in the heck are these ppl playing an mmo? If these ppl had their way we would be playing a single player game ( which at this point we are not far from ) but they are only making it worse.

 

What has happened to the mmo gaming world? It used to be great ppl wanted to group and all that stuff now it seems ppl have become very antisocial.

 

SWTOR has made grouping an inconvience in thier game.

 

Even more so that in World of Warcraft. In WOW 99% of people don't read the quest text. They just go to the glowing dot on the minimap and kill X or pickup Y. Due to level differences, a high level friend would generally NOT group with a lower level friend. The leveling system made grouping inconvenient.

 

In SWTOR, not only is there a leveling system but, there is voice acting and dialogue cut-scenes. If just 1 person in the group wants to skip it, grouping becomes an inconvenience.

 

Never in my long history of playing MMORPG's have I played a game that has actually made it a hassle to group with other people.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Calei

[Frostvein]

Because the reward isn't proportional to the time invested until max lvl. Edited March 12, 2012 by Frostvein