Mara/Pally Bubble needs to be looked at(Undying Rage)

[Grubfist]

you can all bash my wow comparison is you like. the only reason i compared it is because this ability is being used in the same way. its not being used right. you can say thats my opinion. fine. it is my opinion. i think, however, that some dmg reduction would balance this ability out while still keeping hte class viable. pay attention to the people that know what they are talking about and not the "omg he brang up wow"....this game copied wow and they copied some of the bad parts that used to be wow. just like this ability right here. pretty sure bioware knows what ability i'm talking about regardless if i hold their hand and name it for them.

 

as for the naysayers thanks for the free bumps to get the pvp teams attention.

 

You name the ability not for Bioware's benefit, but for the community's. Let me help you. For a sentinel, it's "Guarded by the force" and for the Marauder it's "Undying Rage".

 

I haven't really played these classes, but I know their ability names, because I try to learn something, ANYTHING, about my opponents before fighting them, so I'm not wandering in and blindly throwing my cooldowns all over the place and getting destroyed.

 

You appear to be the person I just described when you state "that random pally bubble ability thing". Since you have not taken the time to educate yourself on the ability's name, let alone the details of how it works, you come across as uneducated and people have a hard time taking you seriously. I'll advise you re-state your issue in a more calm and rational manner. In fact, I will quote your original post, and try to keep your points intact while appearing more educated an calm. You read my edit, and if it gets your points across, copy it and post it in a new thread. Alrighty? Let's turn it into a rational discussion and not a flame war.

[kiroshei]

So your normal rotation against a medium armor target does 100, 200, 100, 100, 200 damage?

 

You're complaining about a class that you don't understand, so you're not even complaining about the right things.

 

dude. no matter what ability i use i cannot get good dmg. the most i've seen is a 4. seriously. been pvping since december. maybe something is wrong with the calculations. technically if a voltaic does 1100 i should see something like 11 right? well i dont. i see 1's and 2's and only 4's when i pop all cooldowns. so perhaps something is broken on the mathematical end.

[Apocalypse-]

we are about to hit rated wz's and some things need to be fixed before that. talking about sorcs/sages all day is for another thread. with a proper team and coordination this ability is used way to offensively to NOT be OP. take huttball out of the equation and apply it to the other 2 warzones instead so you dont derail the topic on ball carrying. this isnt about ball carrying.

 

Any competent team in a rated wz knows how to time CC and to taunt dangerous targets. Doing either significantly reduces the effectiveness of GBTF as an offensive cooldown. Not to mention, any competent team in a rated wz knows to not attack the immortal enemy until he's not immortal. It's 3 globals. Press tab and profit.

[kiroshei]

You name the ability not for Bioware's benefit, but for the community's. Let me help you. For a sentinel, it's "Guarded by the force" and for the Marauder it's "Undying Rage".

 

I haven't really played these classes, but I know their ability names, because I try to learn something, ANYTHING, about my opponents before fighting them, so I'm not wandering in and blindly throwing my cooldowns all over the place and getting destroyed.

 

You appear to be the person I just described when you state "that random pally bubble ability thing". Since you have not taken the time to educate yourself on the ability's name, let alone the details of how it works, you come across as uneducated and people have a hard time taking you seriously. I'll advise you re-state your issue in a more calm and rational manner. In fact, I will quote your original post, and try to keep your points intact while appearing more educated an calm. You read my edit, and if it gets your points across, copy it and post it in a new thread. Alrighty? Let's turn it into a rational discussion and not a flame war.

 

actually i know the name. knew the name. could of torhead linked it for you. but by not naming it it obviously got some free bumps didnt it. like i said. bioware know what it is. this is the 4th time its been named in the thread. so far you offer nothing constructive. here i'll edit my main thread for you. happy? k, lets back on to why you think it shouldnt be fixed. other hten youre bad, stupid & dumb comments lol

[kiroshei]

Any competent team in a rated wz knows how to time CC and to taunt dangerous targets. Doing either significantly reduces the effectiveness of GBTF as an offensive cooldown. Not to mention, any competent team in a rated wz knows to not attack the immortal enemy until he's not immortal. It's 3 globals. Press tab and profit.

 

yes. sure. in a perfect world where everything works out the way you planned it. where pvp players arent dynamic. sure....

[GRINnBARRETT]

As a non-marauder/sentinel, I'm concerned. This is exactly how arena ruined WoW instanced pvp. The devs began balancing classes around arena comps & the game was never the same.

 

The elite players take issue with x ability & that ability gets changed for everyone else in the game, casual pvpers & pvers alike.

 

This particular ability can be countered via CC, vanish, or kiting. It is not OP like abilities mentioned from other games.

 

I truly hope BW doesn't open a can of worms with these types of changes.

[Apocalypse-]

dude. no matter what ability i use i cannot get good dmg. the most i've seen is a 4. seriously. been pvping since december. maybe something is wrong with the calculations. technically if a voltaic does 1100 i should see something like 11 right? well i dont. i see 1's and 2's and only 4's when i pop all cooldowns. so perhaps something is broken on the mathematical end.

 

Or, you've been taunted and aren't attacking the correct target, or you're just not paying attention. Likely both. I get hit with anything from 1-50 while in GBTF, and have died a fair number of times while it's up. If I popped it on cooldown and was late because of it (ending up with only 1-2% health), my only shot at surviving is to get a couple heals. Now, a couple dot crit heals can cover me for this if I'm not getting heavy focused, but not always.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Apocalypse-

[Grubfist]

There is a reason why blizzard nerfed the paladin bubble. Same reason Mara bubble needs to be fixed. You should not be able to do full dmg while being immune to pretty well everything. Make it so when a Mara uses this bubble its defensively and not offensively. Cut all damage and healing while bubble is up by 50%. I think its ok that you should be able to survive while its up but being able to kill multiple ppl while its up is just wrong and shouldnt be happening.

 

Thread title: "Undying Rage/GBTF, overpowered?"

 

Thread post:

 

"I feel like this ability is a bit overpowered. I don't think you should be able to do full damage while being essentially immune to damage. I think the developers should change this ability so that it reduces damage and healing done by 50% while it is active. This way, it is more of a defensive cooldown than an offensive cooldown. I like that marauders and sentinels get a good survival cooldown, but being able to use it to kill multiple people during its duration just seems wrong, and I really think it shouldn't be happening. In World of Warcraft, paladins had an ability that made them immune to damage, and the damage spec of that class abused it heavily. Blizzard ended up nerfing the ability, so that you did 50% less damage while it was up. I feel like this is a similar situation and Bioware should consider that precedence as they tune their new game."

 

 

See, show you are familiar with the ability. Tone down on the exaggerations. Sound calm. Type properly (poor typing is often indicative of being enraged). Use your comparison later on, once you've stated your point. Comparisons shouldn't be the point. They should reinforce it.

 

Now try posting this in a new thread. I bet you it will get better responses.

[Apocalypse-]

yes. sure. in a perfect world where everything works out the way you planned it. where pvp players arent dynamic. sure....

 

A rated warzone implies a coordinated team. A coordinated team implies competent players. If you're needlessly filling resolve bars, you're not a competent player. If your reaction time is longer than a global, you're not a competent player. If you don't know what animations to look for in order to react to them fast enough, you're not a competent player.

[kiroshei]

Or, you've been taunted and aren't attacking the correct target, or you're just not paying attention. Likely both. I get hit with anything from 1-50 while in GBTF, and have died a fair number of times while it's up. If I popped it on cooldown and was late because of it, my only shot at surviving is to get a couple heals.

 

sorry not correct. i've 1v1'd full bm mara's at their goalline with noone else around. with this ability they completely wreck you. if dmg was reduced you would stand a chance. regardless though lets not assume its a 1v1 scenerio for the reason to fix this ability. teamwork with this ability is by far way worse.

[FeeFiFoFum]

There is a reason why blizzard nerfed the paladin bubble. Same reason Mara bubble needs to be fixed. You should not be able to do full dmg while being immune to pretty well everything. Make it so when a Mara uses this bubble its defensively and not offensively. Cut all damage and healing while bubble is up by 50%. I think its ok that you should be able to survive while its up but being able to kill multiple ppl while its up is just wrong and shouldnt be happening.

 

Adapt. Everyone makes the same mistakes when I/we use this. We pop undying rage, then they use their finisher which is absorbed and still stay in our faces cause they think we will die soon so they stop and just keep shooting/slashing/forcing away. If you want to counter that move, and u should, then when we get low KNOW that it is coming, KNOW that it lasts 5 seconds and then, act accordingly. Run away, jump down, vanish, snare, stun etc etc and then wait 5 seconds, then turn and one shot us. When I fight a mara and i know his is coming I can do a number of things. 1- Use mine 2 seconds after he uses his, save vicious throw. 2- camo, wait, profit. 3-Predation run away, use saber ward to deflect his charge and not get rooted.

 

Use your class to counter it, VERY simple!

 

Edit: spelling and btw L2p.

Edited March 11, 2012 by FeeFiFoFum

[kiroshei]

Thread title: "Undying Rage/GBTF, overpowered?"

 

Thread post:

 

"I feel like this ability is a bit overpowered. I don't think you should be able to do full damage while being essentially immune to damage. I think the developers should change this ability so that it reduces damage and healing done by 50% while it is active. This way, it is more of a defensive cooldown than an offensive cooldown. I like that marauders and sentinels get a good survival cooldown, but being able to use it to kill multiple people during its duration just seems wrong, and I really think it shouldn't be happening. In World of Warcraft, paladins had an ability that made them immune to damage, and the damage spec of that class abused it heavily. Blizzard ended up nerfing the ability, so that you did 50% less damage while it was up. I feel like this is a similar situation and Bioware should consider that precedence as they tune their new game."

 

 

See, show you are familiar with the ability. Tone down on the exaggerations. Sound calm. Type properly (poor typing is often indicative of being enraged). Use your comparison later on, once you've stated your point. Comparisons shouldn't be the point. They should reinforce it.

 

Now try posting this in a new thread. I bet you it will get better responses.

 

feel free. mines working as intended. lol

[texoc]

Undying Rage is fine!

 

otherwise Force Shroud needs to get nerfed aswell. 100% mitigation against 80% of the players (sorcs/Bhs/ scoundrels etc) while being immun to all kinds of cc, roots, pulls.

 

 

Mara is Dps class with medium armor that can ONLY do dmg, nothing else. Medium Armor that has to be in 4 meter range. Plays in case of a Mara 99% HUTTBALL!!!

Has pretty much no cc. Gets tossed around like ball !! An is the first target to eat a cc or knockback.

 

And you rage about 5 seconds immunity ??

 

 

CC !!!

ROOT !!!

Vanish !!

Snare + Kite !!

Def CDs !!

 

 

so many freakin was to counter Undying Rage !!

 

no single way to counter Force Shroud!!!

[Apocalypse-]

sorry not correct. i've 1v1'd full bm mara's at their goalline with noone else around. with this ability they completely wreck you. if dmg was reduced you would stand a chance. regardless though lets not assume its a 1v1 scenerio for the reason to fix this ability. teamwork with this ability is by far way worse.

 

Adding in teamwork, Force Shroud and Hold the Line are infinitely more powerful abilities than Guarded by the Force. I'd readily trade GBTF for either.

[kiroshei]

Adapt. Everyone makes the same mistakes when I/we use this. We pop in, then they use their finisher which is absorbed and still stay in our faces cause they think we will die soon so they stop and just keep shooting/slashing/forcing away. If you want to counter that move, and u should, then when we get low KNOW that it is coming, KNOW that it lasts 5 seconds and the, act accordingly. Run away, jump down, vanish, snare, stun etc etc and then wait 5 seconds, then turn and one shot us. When I fight a mara and i know his is coming I can do a number of things. 1- Use mine 2 seconds after he uses his, save vicious throw. 2- camo, wait, profit. 3-Predation run away, use saber ward to deflect his charge and not get rooted.

 

Use your class to counter it, VERY simple!

 

 

Again. This is only VERY simple in a perfect world where pvp players are not dynamic and completely predictable. Sure that works in SOME situations. When you play good pvpers though they arent going to use that ability when you have a stun or they arent fully resolved. Trust me i've killed many mara's the way youre describing. That isnt the issue. I dont need to be taught. Thank you for your input though i appreciate it sincerely.

[Grubfist]

dude. no matter what ability i use i cannot get good dmg. the most i've seen is a 4. seriously. been pvping since december. maybe something is wrong with the calculations. technically if a voltaic does 1100 i should see something like 11 right? well i dont. i see 1's and 2's and only 4's when i pop all cooldowns. so perhaps something is broken on the mathematical end.

 

I've seen 22s with no cooldowns, and my biggest crits on squishies are 3.2k.

 

But of course, that's not relevant. It IS essentially a damage immunity. Any arguments of "well you CAN still kill them" are silly, because the odds of that happening are incredibly low.

 

I honestly have more of an issue with the class's execute. It does quite a high amount of damage, but of course you have to be below 20%. Got to keep that in mind while fighting them.

 

I try to frontload my cooldowns when fighting a marauder, since it is, of course, silly to use the ability before your health is low. That way I burn them down faster, and make them pop it faster. Your goal should be to make them blow that cooldown and ride out its duration before you go below 20%.

 

I honestly would prefer using stuns BEFORE they use that ability, simply because they are likely running in with damage-increasing cooldowns up, and I need to keep my hp high, since they gain more benefits the lower my health is, and I know they will last a bit longer than their hp might indicate.

[Xinika]

Thread went to: Don't nerf me bro. Was fun while it lasted.

[Grubfist]

feel free. mines working as intended. lol

 

I'm not posting it, since it is my opinions that the ability is completely balanced. You just need to plan out the battle beforehand, like you should be doing with every class. Then adapt based on what cooldowns you currently have up, what team-mates/LoS objects are nearby, etc. The usual stuff in PvP.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Grubfist

[Draeb]

Undying Rage is fine!

 

otherwise Force Shroud needs to get nerfed aswell. 100% mitigation against 80% of the players (sorcs/Bhs/ scoundrels etc) while being immun to all kinds of cc, roots, pulls.

 

 

Mara is Dps class with medium armor that can ONLY do dmg, nothing else. Medium Armor that has to be in 4 meter range. Plays in case of a Mara 99% HUTTBALL!!!

Has pretty much no cc. Gets tossed around like ball !! An is the first target to eat a cc or knockback.

 

And you rage about 5 seconds immunity ??

 

 

CC !!!

ROOT !!!

Vanish !!

Snare + Kite !!

Def CDs !!

 

 

so many freakin was to counter Undying Rage !!

 

no single way to counter Force Shroud!!!

 

 

 

LOL. No single way huh?

[Yescek]

First off, to the OP: You obviously have no idea how to fight a Marauder or this would be a moot point. I AM a Marauder. So, being versed in my own defensive abilities, let me detail you on the defenses I can use. I ignore all calls for nerfs due to idiocy.

 

1. Saber Ward - 50% Melee and Ranged defense increase, 25% Force and Tech defense increase. This is not overpowered, because a VAST number of abilities in this game are Force or Tech anyways which is resisted rather than mitigated meaning it ignores Melee and Ranged defense. Force attacks even ignore Armor. THREE MINUTE COOLDOWN SAYS HELLO.

 

2. Cloak of Pain - Reduces all damage by 20% and deals X damage to an attacker. (****** scaling with gear) The effect cant happen more than once ever 1.5 seconds. Refreshes to full 6 second duration when attacked, but can't last longer than 30 seconds. Generates 1 rage every time it reflects damage back to an attacker, which again, CAN'T happen more than once every 1.5 seconds. 1 minute cooldown. At best, this ability has 50% uptime. Realistically, it's only up about 25% of the time if you're playing conservatively.

*Effect will differ slightly depending on talents, this breakdown assumes Cloak Of Carnage was specced

 

3. Predation - REQUIRES 30 stacks of Fury to use. If you're not familiar with Fury, it's built up by taking damage/spending rage and all Fury abilities require you to be capped at 30 to use them. 50% movement speed and 10% Melee and ranged defense. I detailed earlier why that 10% isn't super impactful. The movement speed helps a LOT for escapes. This move can be considered either defensive or offensive, but it's always a better idea to pop it to run away.

 

4. Obfuscate - Reduces all Ranged and Melee ACCURACY by 90% for 6 seconds. It's still entirely possible for someone to kill me while blinded. I've had it happen many a time. Plus, this does NOTHING to Force and Tech accuracy.

 

And the mother of all defensive abilities................which has some cost to it.

 

5. Undying Rage - 90 second cooldown. 99% damage reduction but ONLY FOR FIVE SECONDS. SPENDS 50% OF YOUR CURRENT HP TO ACTIVATE. If that doesn't SCREAM "Only use in case of EMERGENCY" then I don't know what does. The penalty for using this ability is EXTREME. Meaning if I have to use it, and I DON'T kill you in 5 seconds then my *** is grass. Best case scenario is to use it to escape or gain enough time to get a talented Deadly Throw off on the ball carrier but either way this isn't going to save your bacon even half the time.

 

Bonus to #5 is that that effect is the same no matter which spec a Marauder takes. They may simply use it differently that a Carnage Marauder like me.

 

I think #5 is the ability you're wanting to see nerfed. This is absolutely unnecessary. There's already a hefty cost to using it, and at least for me, it's a last ditch effort to live by either killing you or running away.

 

Now as for this bit of idiocy..........

 

First, you're talking about the wrong ability. See:

http://www.torhead.com/ability/fYZIabE/undying-rage

 

The point is that they remain fully offensive while gaining a tremendous amount of defense comparable to a paladin bubble. Not to mention, a 90 second cooldown? I have no idea what they were thinking when they were implementing this ability. It's for the lack of a better term: grossly overpowered and by far the best defensive cooldown in game at the current moment.

 

Yes. It is the BEST defensive cooldown in the game, bar none. I'll give you that. But um, -50% HP in order to use it say hello.

 

End of the day: You can make the change, but I will steadfastly REFUSE to give any credence to your argument unless you want to make it a fair trade. I'd take a massive damage loss when it's up, but ONLY if I get to keep that 50% HP I had to lose to use it.

[kiroshei]

Thread went to: Don't nerf me bro. Was fun while it lasted.

 

Seriously though lol. You know when the majority of replies is this insulting and negative that you have a problem on your hands. Not one reply has offered any constructive feedback as to how to make this a defensive ability and not currently the offensive ability its being used as.

[Grubfist]

no single way to counter Force Shroud!!!

 

I stop using Ion Pulse (a tech ability) and start using my basic attack (a ranged ability).

 

Hell, on my sage, I'll use my basic melee attack on someone with that cooldown up, too. Gotta keep damage up as much as you can.

 

It's immunity to tech/force attacks.

 

Melee and ranged attacks are neither.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Grubfist

[exphryl]

Or, you've been taunted and aren't attacking the correct target, or you're just not paying attention. Likely both. I get hit with anything from 1-50 while in GBTF, and have died a fair number of times while it's up. If I popped it on cooldown and was late because of it (ending up with only 1-2% health), my only shot at surviving is to get a couple heals. Now, a couple dot crit heals can cover me for this if I'm not getting heavy focused, but not always.

 

I would just like to say, why would you not time your health pack with your GBTF? Isn't that Sent/Mara 101?

[Lerdoc]

Maruaders are not Paladins, this isn't WOW nerfing there damage shields would cripple the class

 

Want to compare it to scoundrel/gunslinger survival buff tool? Want to trade it for 3s dodge to white attacks only?

[Draeb]

I'm not posting it, since it is my opinions that the ability is completely balanced. You just need to plan out the battle beforehand, like you should be doing with every class. Then adapt based on what cooldowns you currently have up, what team-mates/LoS objects are nearby, etc. The usual stuff in PvP.

 

 

 

 

You know, it worries me where the OP is coming from in his argument. He did mention an assassin not doing much damage to the mara and that kind of worries me that he keeps getting beat by mara's/sents in a 1v1 situation due to the brief "immunities".

 

It worries me because that would be the wrong stance on the topic.

 

 

I want to know if this ability can be exploited in premades. Are people doing it? Are they running around rampant and not being killed? What's the deal in the high level play?

Edited March 11, 2012 by Draeb