Kiting:Is it possible?

[Snargles]

Just as a preface this is a mainly PvP focused question:

 

With all of the CC out there and abilities to close distances is it even possible to build a kiting character? I ask this becasue I have noticed even the melee characters have a good amount of CC and even range abilities. I have looked at several builds and tried to come up with a good solution but ultimately it seems that the amount of abilities designed to close the gap between a range player and a melee character far out way the number designed to keep them apart.

 

Thoughts and success stories are much appreciated!

[silentsurfer]

Just as a preface this is a mainly PvP focused question:

 

With all of the CC out there and abilities to close distances is it even possible to build a kiting character? I ask this becasue I have noticed even the melee characters have a good amount of CC and even range abilities. I have looked at several builds and tried to come up with a good solution but ultimately it seems that the amount of abilities designed to close the gap between a range player and a melee character far out way the number designed to keep them apart.

 

Thoughts and success stories are much appreciated!

 

No. Ranged classes in the game lack the proper tools to actually kite like in other games. Match this with melee classes having extremely short cool downs on gap closers, chained together with stuns, slows etc. and you end up with mostly two people spamming an ability at each other face to face. It would have been nice to actually get the ranged blasters fights that the movies had but instead its shooting people in melee. They would have been better off putting force users and jedi in one warzone to fight others, and ranged users in their own to fight each other. It would have made for more Star Wars like battles that's for sure.

[wtfnonamefree]

They would have been better off putting force users and jedi in one warzone to fight others, and ranged users in their own to fight each other. It would have made for more Star Wars like battles that's for sure.

 

Oneshotting people with lightsabers and not being able to respawn infitely would make for more Star Wars like battles, too. What's your point?

 

But I agree with the nonexistence of kiting in the current state of the game.

 

Also, when creating threads on PvP, the PvP forum would be more appropriate.

Edited March 8, 2012 by wtfnonamefree

[silentsurfer]

Oneshotting people with lightsabers and not being able to respawn infitely would make for more Star Wars like battles, too. What's your point?

 

But I agree with the nonexistence of kiting in the current state of the game.

 

Also, when creating threads on PvP, the PvP forum would be more appropriate.

 

Point is, there is no disadvantage in this game to playing a jedi or force user. Players are figuring that out fast. If you haven't noticed warzones are generally comprised of only those classes and a small smattering of the 'other' classes. The elements that made the movies exciting were the blaster battles and escape scenes, that what SW was about. Every movie of the original trilogy was about escaping and fighting gorilla style. That style doesn't even remotely exist here.

[Snargles]

Also, when creating threads on PvP, the PvP forum would be more appropriate.

 

I feel like this is not the inappropriate place to post such a question about classes.I feel this way mainly because while it is mainly aimed at PvP it is not solely aimed for that. Kiting is possible for PvE in almost every game but what I have found in this game is that it does not work as well. By that I mean, even "Strong" mobs have more CC than you can escape from it seems.

 

No. Ranged classes in the game lack the proper tools to actually kite like in other games. Match this with melee classes having extremely short cool downs on gap closers, chained together with stuns, slows etc. and you end up with mostly two people spamming an ability at each other face to face. It would have been nice to actually get the ranged blasters fights that the movies had but instead its shooting people in melee. They would have been better off putting force users and jedi in one warzone to fight others, and ranged users in their own to fight each other. It would have made for more Star Wars like battles that's for sure.

 

Thank you for verifying what I was thinking. This was my fear. I personally love kiting but it seems the only way to do so is through healing and dragging enemies to your friend(s) for them to kill.

 

I was think today of ways to make it better and a buff that allows you to not be CC'd for a few seconds after your last one breaks or abilities that break it and make you immune for a certain number of seconds would be a huge step in creating a less melee/force oriented battlefield.

I feel Warhammer got a pretty good job (eventually) of getting the crowd control balanced enough to keep every play-style competative in battle.

[Herew]

This is probably one of the MMOs with least focus on kiting and positioning for RDPS. That said there is still room for kiting, it's just not something you do constantly. Generally this is what decides whether I kill a RDPS or not. If they stand still like tards or if they actually move when they have the ability to do so.

I also had a lot of fun kite-tanking some elites yesterday on my lowbie BH when doing group quests without a healer.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Herew

[Snargles]

Another issue I have found is unless you stack a ton of alacrity you have "casting time" on a lot of the useful kiting abilities.

[silentsurfer]

This is probably one of the MMOs with least focus on kiting and positioning for RDPS. That said there is still room for kiting, it's just not something you do constantly. Generally this is what decides whether I kill a RDPS or not. If they stand still like tards or if they actually move when they have the ability to do so.

I also had a lot of fun kite-tanking some elites yesterday on my lowbie BH when doing group quests without a healer.

 

Try this with one of the pure ranged dps classes, ie Sniper or Gunslinger.

[Gaidax]

There is plenty kiting opportunities, knockbacks are a fantastic kiting tool, when used right and SWTOR is plagued with those, you can say the reason there is so much gap closers around is pretty much the fact that there is a lot of gap openers to begin with.

 

Besides that, there are ways to block charge, take Snipers, you can basically root a guy for up to 10 seconds straight with Cover Pulse and subsequent Leg Shot and it still won't fill resolve, so you got one more CC spare. In Huttball - Cover Pulse + entering cover often leaves a melee helplessly running away since he won't be able to charge back.

 

Kiting here is a bit different, with knockbacks you don't necessarily have to drag a guy half a Warzone to do your worst.

[silentsurfer]

There is plenty kiting opportunities, knockbacks are a fantastic kiting tool, when used right and SWTOR is plagued with those, you can say the reason there is so much gap closers around is pretty much the fact that there is a lot of gap openers to begin with.

 

Besides that, there are ways to block charge, take Snipers, you can basically root a guy for up to 10 seconds straight with Cover Pulse and subsequent Leg Shot and it still won't fill resolve, so you got one more CC spare. In Huttball - Cover Pulse + entering cover often leaves a melee helplessly running away since he won't be able to charge back.

 

Kiting here is a bit different, with knockbacks you don't necessarily have to drag a guy half a Warzone to do your worst.

 

This is all fine and dandy but don't forget you can't damage that melee not 1 point or all of your CCs are worthless. Now lets take forcechoke, it's a CC that stuns and does damage at the same time, ok how about oh forget it there's to long of a list of them that work better and either damage you while you are stunned, doesn't break on damage or lasts twice as long if not longer.

Edited March 9, 2012 by silentsurfer

[Snargles]

There is plenty kiting opportunities, knockbacks are a fantastic kiting tool, when used right and SWTOR is plagued with those, you can say the reason there is so much gap closers around is pretty much the fact that there is a lot of gap openers to begin with.

 

Besides that, there are ways to block charge, take Snipers, you can basically root a guy for up to 10 seconds straight with Cover Pulse and subsequent Leg Shot and it still won't fill resolve, so you got one more CC spare. In Huttball - Cover Pulse + entering cover often leaves a melee helplessly running away since he won't be able to charge back.

 

Kiting here is a bit different, with knockbacks you don't necessarily have to drag a guy half a Warzone to do your worst.

 

Also you need to remember every class has a CC break with an equal if not shorter cooldown than many of the good CC out there. My main concern is not creating distance between it is maintianing. You can use a CC break only to be slowed/stunned again. Then add force speed and it's disregard of anything currently impairing movement speed and it is impossible to keep force users especially at bay. I will continue to work on it and let you know what I come up with! Please if anyone finds a build that helps let me know!

[Dzhokhar]

I haven't tried it, but I suspect a Sniper/Gunslinger could kite a Commando/Mercenary.

 

(It would be tricky, but likely possible, to maintain 30-35m range.)

Edited March 12, 2012 by Dzhokhar

[LancelotOC]

You can kite with a Sorc/Sage because they have both snare and snare removal as well as speed boost on shield and force speed.

 

Not sure if anyone else has a snare removal ability.

[grandmasterub]

play a vanguard/powertech. spec assault/pyro... profit.

 

also I've been kited many times by a good sorc/sage

[jgarib]

Point is, there is no disadvantage in this game to playing a jedi or force user. Players are figuring that out fast. If you haven't noticed warzones are generally comprised of only those classes and a small smattering of the 'other' classes. The elements that made the movies exciting were the blaster battles and escape scenes, that what SW was about. Every movie of the original trilogy was about escaping and fighting gorilla style. That style doesn't even remotely exist here.

 

That's really funny.. I just read a thread where people were talking about the viability of melee characters in OPS and other serious PvE. I don't think the issue is force users vs. non force users. Its ranged vs melee. I cant speak for any server but my own, there are a lot of merc DPS, and sorcs in warzones. There are also a ton of juggs and more recently marauders.... but by far the ranged outnumber the melee.

 

Regardless... why should there be a disadvantage to playing ANY class? There shouldnt. Each class should give a different feel of gameplay on a level playing field to other classes. You should choose your class not because it's advantageous, or overpowered, but because its fun to play for you. There being no clear advantages/disadvantages is an indication of good game design.

 

Kiting in PvE is fine. Kiting in PvP is something that should be rare and very hard to pull off. There are plenty of other ways to introduce strategy into a battle without making one person untouchable, the other dead by default. That is the case if ranged were given a strong ability to kite melee classes.

 

I hear you on trying to stay true to the theme... but I've got two points to bring up:

 

a) This is Knights of the Old Republic. It took place THOUSANDS of years before the original trilogy. The fact that there are more than 5 jedi/sith in existence goes against what "should" be, based on the original trilogy... and this was done on purpose to facilitate my next point.

 

b) It is a game, and a game must be fun. I'm willing to bet a large sum of money, if you were to play a single player game where you were a melee class and every NPC enemy had a strong ability to kite your *** to death, you'd ragequit before a single day was out.

 

What makes it more complicated is being that it is a MMO game, it must be fun to many paying customers because an unhappy customer will soon no longer be a customer. Want to kite in PvE? Fine. If it's a viable strategy they'd need to remove about 2-3k HP from ranged class to balance the dificulty with melee, but it's doable... but then how do you balance PVP, while keeping the game fun for all, without in essence designing two completely different games?

Edited March 13, 2012 by jgarib

[Howbadisbad]

Operatives can be kited, other classes tend to have gap closers and sprints that prevent them from being kited for extended periods of time though.

 

So basically yes, only on Operatives though.

[Snargles]

That's really funny.. I just read a thread where people were talking about the viability of melee characters in OPS and other serious PvE. I don't think the issue is force users vs. non force users. Its ranged vs melee. I cant speak for any server but my own, there are a lot of merc DPS, and sorcs in warzones. There are also a ton of juggs and more recently marauders.... but by far the ranged outnumber the melee.

 

Regardless... why should there be a disadvantage to playing ANY class? There shouldnt. Each class should give a different feel of gameplay on a level playing field to other classes. You should choose your class not because it's advantageous, or overpowered, but because its fun to play for you. There being no clear advantages/disadvantages is an indication of good game design.

 

Kiting in PvE is fine. Kiting in PvP is something that should be rare and very hard to pull off. There are plenty of other ways to introduce strategy into a battle without making one person untouchable, the other dead by default. That is the case if ranged were given a strong ability to kite melee classes.

 

I hear you on trying to stay true to the theme... but I've got two points to bring up:

 

a) This is Knights of the Old Republic. It took place THOUSANDS of years before the original trilogy. The fact that there are more than 5 jedi/sith in existence goes against what "should" be, based on the original trilogy... and this was done on purpose to facilitate my next point.

 

b) It is a game, and a game must be fun. I'm willing to bet a large sum of money, if you were to play a single player game where you were a melee class and every NPC enemy had a strong ability to kite your *** to death, you'd ragequit before a single day was out.

 

What makes it more complicated is being that it is a MMO game, it must be fun to many paying customers because an unhappy customer will soon no longer be a customer. Want to kite in PvE? Fine. If it's a viable strategy they'd need to remove about 2-3k HP from ranged class to balance the dificulty with melee, but it's doable... but then how do you balance PVP, while keeping the game fun for all, without in essence designing two completely different games?

 

Here is the best build I have come up with in terms of mobility.http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301ZrsrrMrozdZcGrM.1

 

Granted it is not perfect but I feel it is a good balance of mobility and survivability.

 

There should be a balance of advantages and disadvantages to playing any class this is basic class build up. The problem that I am finding is that no class has a great mobility advantage. The closest thing is powertech with is removals and immunity and damage reduction abilities. As well as snares and stuns. The problem is that even if spec'd for maximum mobility you have to stop at some point to cast some abilities that you are contingent upon for this mobility which is counter productive such as switching Cylinders. You have to be stopped for 1.5 seconds to switch them yet I am relying on an ability to balancing using the benefits gained from two in a fight. I am just asking why in this game it is either you rely on instant cast abilities to be mobile or you stand and shoot there is no middle ground ability wise.

 

Kiting in PvP should not be restricted to only the elite. I agree that bad players should not be able to kite but the truth is bad players cannot kite even with a class setup for it. Right now kiting is based solely on Line of site. There is not skill involved in strafing behind things to make someones abilities fail. I am not saying give me a kite build so I can faceroll my keyboard and win. I am just asking for more mobility in battles. It is unrealistic that I do not hardly ever use some of my better abilities because the cost of stopping is not worth the risk of allowing gaps to close. I essentially have to save any ability with a cast time as an opener or finisher. Which is okay with some abilities but it is not okay with most.

 

 

Please let me know what you think of the build!

[Thankyjack]

Lag makes kiting in pvp impossible. Melee keeps hitting you, even when you appear to be far away from them.

[MagicWalker]

That spec is not going to achieve very much. I mean- you literally can't depend on switching cylinders in combat. Stance-dancing or whatever you want to call it, is counter productive. I'm assuming from this build, you want to apply the Combustible Gas Cylinder slow on your target and then kite while in High Energy Gas Cylinder.

 

This simply won't work.

 

You will be charged, pulled, ranged stunned, ranged snared, etc. and you will lose your distance you are relying on.

 

If you want to "kite" people as Powertech, just spec into the Pyrotech tree and kite people at about 8-10m; outside of melee range and within your range to apply Flame Burst and by extension the CGC-snare.

[kuey]

Operatives can be kited, other classes tend to have gap closers and sprints that prevent them from being kited for extended periods of time though.

 

So basically yes, only on Operatives though.

 

^ This. If you're facing a JK/SW or Shadow/Assassin kiting is almost impossible. One has leap (one spec also gets 2 leaps), the other a dash and pull. If you can survive the initial Op/Scoundrel burst then kiting is very possible if you remember to use your stuns, slows, DoTs, and knockbacks.

 

Overall however, kiting is very difficult and usually best used for buying time for reinforcements and this is mainly because damage dealt during kiting is quite low and usually fails to kill them before they eventually catch up to you (or run away).

[Casa]

That spec is not going to achieve very much. I mean- you literally can't depend on switching cylinders in combat. Stance-dancing or whatever you want to call it, is counter productive. I'm assuming from this build, you want to apply the Combustible Gas Cylinder slow on your target and then kite while in High Energy Gas Cylinder.

 

This simply won't work.

 

You will be charged, pulled, ranged stunned, ranged snared, etc. and you will lose your distance you are relying on.

 

If you want to "kite" people as Powertech, just spec into the Pyrotech tree and kite people at about 8-10m; outside of melee range and within your range to apply Flame Burst and by extension the CGC-snare.

 

To OP:I am Pyro PT and kite all the time...It's how I kill Jedi. I will be the third person to put this in here. I'm guessing you are smug/IA and unhappy about not being able to kite. I know I get so much CC when I run up on someone in cover there has to be some way to use that as a form of kiting.

[va_wanderer]

Yeah. We Assault Trooper/Pyro BH's can actually manage it fairly well, since we can proc a snare all day at 10m or less.

 

PvE-wise, I kite all the time- generally letting a DPS companion do the lion's share while I taunt and LOS-kite mobs around to kill. PvP, it's not nearly the same. Players are much better about gap closing.

[Tsavvy]

I feel like the sniper can do it fairly well - particularly against warriors. Leg shot is on a short cooldown. If its one-on-one you can shoot and run for ~3 seconds then turn around and start unloading.

 

If they manage to get close, you can cover pulse, or debilitate and run. Flash bang is also a 30m ranged stun.

 

Snaps shot doesn't hurt either.

[Jalez]

With proper use of Overload (aoe knockback) Whirlwind, Electrocute and even Shock ...let alone talent tree abilities...the Sorc/Sage can kite...Ive kited 4 Pubs on my Sorc from 1 end of Huttball to the other...granted if help doesnt eventually arrive in a 1vs4 your going to die

 

Im rolling my first Sage tonight since Im joining a Republic 8 man.....looking forward to playing Sage even with the nerf....

 

Ill say it once and sy it again....."give a great caster pvp'r 1 Cc spell, 1 damage spell and 1heal and theyll rip ya no matter wht the nerf is"

[Dulwaithe]

Kiting as a gunslinger is fairly easy, especially against marauders/juggs as their gap closer can be avoided with clever use of roots/cover