Turned out? It just started. Why not try some patience?

I just want to post to corroborate the observations made by deadandburied. While I'm not going to get all specific and spend time generating logs to prove my observations on the internets, I can take a 5 minute parse at 1PM EST on my server (Prophecy of the Five) and take another 5 minute parse at 8PM EST and notice a 250-400 dps LOSS at 8PM (prime time). My rotation, gear, spec, etc is identical. The only variable between the two is server lag. Take it for what you will. Just what I have observed.... I've started taking my parses at the same time of day when making changes to my gear/rotation to try and obtain more consistent and comparable results. Also, Aerro, great job! Love the guide and all the insights and info this thread has provided.

I agree with everything you've said. Our class needs some attention. TBH My main was a marauder from pre-launch all the way up to about a month and a half ago. I swapped to Merc because mara became FOTM and our guild had too many of them. All discrepancies aside, the merc in arsenal is simply NOT FUN to play relative to other classes. You have a 4-5 button priority rotation with minimal utility to make the dps loss of breaking priority worth it. You have 1 role; dps and even doing that is no fun as you have no options in how you do that dps. I wont even get into how having an entire AC's dps revolve around multiple RNG procs absolutely sucks. What made the merc great before was the ability to unleash great damage on a dime. Since that has been removed, we really need more utility to balance things out. The fact that Merc Pyro is vastly inferior to PT pyro is unacceptable. The OP brought up the implications of a lower TTK which is absolutely spot on as well. Anyway, just posting my support for change.

Some form of acknowledgement would be much appreciated. This is most certainly game breaking. I pay $15 a month and make time in my schedule to ensure I'm on a couple of times a week to play with friends. Progression is what I like most from games like these... it's very, VERY frustrating to repeatedly fail and waste my time and money because of lag. Progression gets thrown out the window when you cant proceed due to no fault of your own. HM Denova is near impossible on the last boss when hit with server lag. Last night we tried to clean up on Kephess from last Wednesday (where we failed due to lag) and failed again and again from lag. When a 20% drop in DPS from skilled, knowledgeable players doing the same thing they do every week results in failure week after week it's enough to make even the most dedicated player question if their time isn't better spent elsewhere!

For a moment I read it without the first R. You can imagine how confused I was by his statement and it's relevance to the thread.

I've played several. After 2-3 characters it really becomes a grind. The only variance is the class missions.. the rest is repeat. The legacy expansion in 1.3 will hopefully make the experience much more enjoyable though since endgame is where it feels less repetitive since you're progressing rather than getting to where you progress.

No, he's about right. You swap out rakata mods/enhancements for columi ones. Once in full rakata you lower your strength to around 1500-1550 unbuffed as the crit gain from Str has some DR beyond that point. You stack power/crit (after you max surge) and you get close to those numbers. I'm full rakata for PvE and while I don't know the numbers off the top of my head I'm they're fairly close to those numbers. Pre rakata gear, you stack str as high as you can go. But once full rakata... a lot of the rakata mods with 61 strengh are sub par relative to the the (i think these are the accurate numbers) 45 str, ~30 power mods when considering the bigger picture. I have 4/7 of my rakata pieces replaced with the lower strength, higher power alternative. You then tack power/surge and the implants help with crit. Make up some lost Str with augment slots, etc.

I have not read all the replies so someone may have said this already... Guard is counter-able. Its quite simple really--kill the tank.

3 weeks? Bought a BM token as soon as you hit 60? That would imply you hit 60 on or after the patch that allowed you to purchase BM tokens. However, the patch that allowed you to do this has only been out slightly over a week... something isn't matching up here...

I never said anything about being killed. I said I lose my 5 stacks of Juyo dropping my DPS significantly. 10% in fact (http://www.torhead.com/ability/3mjRRxN/juyo-form). Also, I wasn't saying that I ABSOLUTELY MUST ALWAYS BE HITTING THE ENEMY. My point was that in order to maintain optimal DPS to where I would classify myself as THE dps on my team, I must maintain my 5 stacks of juyo form. If the situation calls for tactics I dont forsake tactics in order to kill my target... but by doing so I lose claim to being the DPS king, where a TM spamming merc can LOS and TM to hearts content while maintaining the same DPS. Or at the very least it's much easier for them to do so. If I LOS and I don't hit them within 10 seconds of my last hit, there go my stacks. Now I need to spend 5 GCD's building them up again. If they knock me back, and stun me, and run away... thats 5 sec + ~3 sec to run to where they were when they knocked me back plus ~x amount of time to chase them where they went. It can easily surpass 10 seconds. The AOE KB/Root of a specced sage/sorc is the most frustrating skill for me. There have been many times on civil war in mid/voidstar where folks will LOS around pillars. Sure in a straight 1 vs 1 the chances of being kited for long periods are very slim, but it's never 1 vs 1 and while I may be the only one on a healer, they usually have other folks trying to CC me, popping heals on the healer, slowing me, etc. In hutball? forget it. All they need to do is chain knockback me off a catwalk and there goes all my momentum. Its even easier in the situations where the only way for me to get to them in time is to use my one gap closer which requires only one knockback to shut me down. While I don't doubt I have room for improvement, you claiming that it should be rare that a good player can prevent another good player from hitting them for 10 seconds (not every 10 seconds, just one gap is enough) is pretty improbable. It happens. That doesn't mean the fight is over. It means my momentum has been stunted. The Mara would be a DPS BEAST if not for this... I love it. I think its great character design and requires me to keep on my toes and as you suggested above, constantly has me re-evaluating what I must do next. Anyway, this is no longer on track with the discussion of the thread. If you'd like to continue in PM i'd be more than happy to oblige. TL;DR: Maintaining 5 stacks of juyo is a core mechanic behind the DPS of annih specced mara. It is possible for an enemy, who is a good player, to work this mechanic to their benefit. By doing so, it challenges the mara to maintain top DPS. We aren't automatically DPS monsters. It takes a lot of work and skill. We become DPS monsters by default against undergeared/bad players only.

My point regarding the leaps was that if you are a marauder, you are Annih specced. Plain and simple. If you aren't, then you have more utility but you've fallen several rungs on the DPS ladder. I haven't seen a single Mara who isn't annih specc unless its for lolz or because they enjoy the challenge/being the black sheep/it fits their idea of who they wan't to be. No one chooses the other two trees to be DPS monsters (currently), therefore it's safe to say, within the context of this thread and Maras being the "DPS kings" that they are restricted to one leap. I'm not saying that Marauders are weak. My point is that Maras aren't the DPS kings unless many factors align. It is easier for these things to happen in PvE than it is in PvP. Against skilled players in PvP, it is difficult to say the least unless you are paired up against a bunch of people who have no idea how your class works or how to play their class effectively in PvP. Essentially, you are unstoppable against a bunch of bads, but just another standard DPS when among equal peers. This is why good players excel and bads do not. Not only is the rotation contextual, requiring constant monitoring, switching of orders, and utilizing anywhere from 5 to 10 skills a minute depending on the fight. But there are also buffs/stacks to monitor in forms of bleeds and form stacks. It's a lot all going on at once! All this will hopefully change in 1.2 when they make the other two trees more viable.

I have no problem sticking on them. I have a problem building and maintaining 5 stacks and keeping it there consistently. I can take these folks down, but it requires a 30-60 second investment and a lot of chase. I run up to them and start hitting them, they use KB. I leap back to them and slow, they stun (5s) and LOS so I cant leap. Between the stun and running to them, i've lost all my stacks. I begin building it up again, they crit heal. I force choke after dots are applied, they stun and LOS. Rinse, repeat. Against a good healer, who can LOS and CC, is equally or superior in gear, it is very difficult to be a "murder machine". All they need to do is keep you from hitting them for 10 seconds and you lose all your momentum.

best survivability? Your opinion, not a fact. Living through 5 seconds of DPS is not survivability Best utility? Depends on the situation. I'd hardly call it best when other classes can push/pull/rootstun. We can speed folks up. That's the extent of our utility. great mobility? HA! we have one leap. Other classes have 2 or more. best intrrupts? Again, many other classes have these. Sorcs even have a ranged interrupt which I would argue is MUCH better as you can LOS folks in key situation (voidstar) while interrupting them.

It is also dependent on the target standing completely still and not having any break in combat for longer than 10 seconds. I consider myself a good player, and I have been shut down repeatedly by folks who know how to stun, run away, and LOS me so I can never generate the 5 stacks I need to maximize my DPS output. In PvE this does not happen. In PvP, against a good player, it happens all the time. I usually content myself with distracting a healer because if they are good, there is no way I'll take them down unless I'm swtiching to them after murdering a fool who stood in place and allowed me to build momentum.

The problem is not expertise. It is the variance of expertise. I think expertise is a fantastic thing. It separates PVP gear from PVE gear. It allows the game designers to define a clear path of progression in PVE that is separate from the progression in PVP. I think they need to increase expertise and make it uniform across all PVP sets. PVP gear should have drastically lower stats than comparable PVE gear, with expertise leveling it out--that way you'd be crazy not to use PVP gear when doing PVP and even more crazy to want to use PvP gear when doing PvE. Gear progression is fine in PVP but it should be based on stat increases not expertise increase. Expertise should be the gate that forces the use of PVP gear while participating in PVP, the stat increases should be left to the stats. Example: low level PVP gear should have 150 expertise, 30 strength, 40 endurance. High level would have 150 expertise, 45 strength, 55 endurance. High level PvE gear would have 0 expertise, 80 strength, 95 endurance. This isn't completely thought out and is only meant to give a gist of what I think would benefit the system.. and i'm sure its something the devs have already considered. The fact is, people like gear progression in MMO's and PVP... but the current expertise system provides way too large of a gap to make pvp enjoyable to any but those who have the gear. Most the folks who are on the side of preserving the expertise gap were those who gained most of their gear before the lvl 50 bracket. They have no idea what it's like to acquire the gear after 50. And doing it with an alt is not the same, as you've already gotten some perspective as to how things will end up eventually. Those who are new to 50 with their first character have no perspective to let them know that if they stick it out a few weeks things will get better end up getting frustrated and completely stop PvP.