First off the cat boasting about winning WoW tournaments needs to ****, WoW PvP is for 7 year olds with ADHD son, no true MMO vet takes WoW PvP seriously. Secondly the dude Taugrim that wrote this blog, I dont personally know him but I can vouch for this FACT: The vast majority of MMO's pre WoW did not have tournaments or rankings, so you couldnt be ranked obviously. Now DAoC had Rankings on their website and still do (they kinda f'd it up recently) that listed Top Guilds All Time, Monthly, Weekly...Top Realm Point earners All Time, Monthly, Weekly, Top 25 in Class etc..etc...but it wasnt in tournament style it was the entire server was ranked. Top solo kills, Top Midgard Kills, Top Hibernia Kills etc I believe GW2 will go to this system as well, but its the gameplay that matters first, then rankings. WoW was very basic in its PvP as there were KNOWN strategies for every build and counters, in games such as DAoC and GW2(GW2 has SPvP as well, I know) you can win a 8v8 then instantly get hit by another 8 man and you need to recover immediately or you were done, this took extraordinary skill and precision that "cage matches" will never provide, since its the same maps and scenarios all the time. SwtoR PvP missed the boat, any serious PvP'r is playing in GW2 BWE's getting ready for major competiion from

SWtoR.....worst implementation of Open/Large Scale RvR in MMO history

CC is very minor in SWtoR compared to the best PvP MMOs. DAoC has mass long duration CC but....you get IMMUNITY for 1 minute after it either wears off, you take dmg(cept for stun) or you Purge it or get a CC cure from a group member. If you really think CC is bad in SWtoR dont even bother with most other MMOs since CC is a large part of competiive and casual PvP/RvR .

DAoC had, and I know my numbers arent rock solid but close.........around 250k-300k subs back in 2003....waaaay before the MMOs hit mainstream, and you needed a.good gaming comp to play DAoC back then, and still do. So 300k subs in 2003, Id say that is equal to almost a million subs in todays numbers at least. I just resubbed to DAoC and.it is MIND BLOWING how that game is way more fun and.in depth than SWtoR. The.DAoC large and smallman 8v8 RvR is straight up addicting with a very high replay factor. The fact that Guild Wars 2 is practically copying alot of DAoC's RvR system(not all of it unfortunately like mass AoE CC and group speed +/stick to group leader)....is a step in the right direction for MMOs to get away from these awful WoW clones.

My answer to the OP is this: No this game cannot be saved for people that have any MMO experience in their past, as practically every MMO Ive ever played is better than SWtoR in every way except for voice acting (lol). The only people that will stay subbed to this game are either "hardcore star wars fans" or people that SWtoR is their first MMO. It's really that simple. Im playing Dark Age of Camelot (10 year old MMO that is leaps and bounds better than SWtoR) until Guild Wars 2 comes out, then Im getting in the ESO beta as that game is being designed by Matt Firor, co-creator of Dark Age of Camelot and he knows how to make Endgame PvP/RvR fun and addicting.

Answering Swaggz question about Guild Wars 2 Yes Guild Wars 2 has gear/armor and it does matter, however its not going to win you fights, only your/your guilds skill will win fights. Competition is the "Carrot" in MMO games like Dark Age of Camelot , Guild Wars 2 and Elder Scrolls Online. The carrot is logging in and seeing that your guild still has ownership of a keep/tower/castle.....The carrot is logging in and queing up for SPvP in GW2 and seeing how good you are versus other guilds, this is true for WvWvW and RvR in DAoC and GW2 as well....and with gear not winning fights for people, it creates a much more balanced field for gauging where you stand in the PvP Endgame in those games

Ok got it, so YOU may not like it...well then they my as well just can the game now then

Oh yea I forgot you already beta tested it......o'wait.....

Im logged in to DAoC right now, Soze-Ywain 1 Hibernia....Euro primetime is action packed

Why would that make it flop? Its going to be advertised as an immersive 3 Faction RvR MMO with very detailed PvE in traditional Elder Scrolls fashion, it will have something for everyone plus DAoC style RvR.....cant wait for the Beta

ESO's lead designer is Matt Firor, co-creator of Dark Age of Camelot, a game that had me hooked on its' RvR/PvP for 10 years lol...lets just say that guy knows what hes doing when it comes to 3 Faction PvP games. Im hella excited for Guild Wars 2 ...but Im even more excited for ESO, both are sort of " spiritual successors" to DAoC, and after this Star Wars debacle, I think new MMOs are going to be trying to copy DAoC more than WoW, since all the WoW copies have failed hard P.S. please dont tell me that Warhammer was a copy of DAoC, the only thing those two games had in common was the term "RvR", thats it

Mythic struck gold with Dark Age of Camelot in 2002, I still play it today as it offfers the best and most competitive PvP of any MMO Ive ever played, and Ive played them all. That being said, the Mythic designers that made DAoC left a long time ago. Matt Firor was the part of the braintrust.that developed DAoC and he left Mythic in 2004 ish, now hes lead designer for Elder Scrolls Online, which I think is going to be a very good "spiritual successor" too DAoC, GW2 I would also consider a sucessor to DAoC also as they have original DAoC people advising them also.

Guild Wars 2 and Elder Scrolls Online are both going to be "3 Faction RvR/PvP Centric MMO's"......both are copying alot of Dark Age of Camelots awesome RvR These games will also have PvE (dam fun PvE I might add) but the difference here is that the PvP Endgame will effect everything, as in if your Faction/Server is pwning in World vs World vs World battles then your faction gets "buffs" that will help both PvE and PvP players. GW2 had a Beta Stress Test yesterday for 7 hours, large and small battles happenning everywhere , keeps under seige and roaming guild vs guild fights as well. Total awesomeness that even "PvE" players were enjoying The days of seperating the PvE and PvP communities in MMOs is over, as these new game are deciding to copy DAoC instead of WoW ...and thank gawd for that:)

Elder Scrolls Online is going to be awesome, Im playing Guild Wars 2 until ESO comes out, both games are copying DAoC for PvP instead of WoW(thank gawd)....ESO is being designed by Matt Firor, codesigner of DAoC(voted best PvP MMO ever by multiple websites and polls) ESO is going to have 3 Faction RvR just like DAoC and GW2.....going to be fun as hell

In Dark Age of Camelot the PvE and PvP communities HAD to coexist, if you wanted the best gear for PvP you HAD to get it from doing Endgame PvE and from Crafters. On the flip side, if your Faction was about to lose a relic, or you had lost too many keeps(castles) then your faction had NO ACCESS to Darkness Falls, the Endgame PvE/PvP Dungeon until you got bak out there and PvP'd to get your keeps back. So PvE players HAD to participate in PvP if they wanted access to the best PvE dungeon in the game. Why.MMOs have regressed over the years is simple, WoW "dumbed down" the market and created a divide between PvE and PvP, something that Guild Wars 2 is fixing as that game will be PvP/PvE intertwined, just like DAoC.

Guild Wars 2 bud, Guild Wars 2 is breaking the gawd awful "WoW PvP " model and copying more of Dark Age of Camelots RvR, going to be a great PvP experience as it already is very exciting to play in just the beta stages

Let me begin by saying that I knew this was more of a "PvE" centric game when released. However, for any MMO to retain my $15 a month, the game MUST have a PvP Endgame that MATTERS. Thats why I never really played WoW either...its PvP doesnt affect endgame at all cept for climbing a ladder, and thats not endgame enough for me So games like DAoC, Guild Wars 2, Elder Scrolls Online, all 3 of these games have endgame PvP that matters. The outcomes of battles in RvR/PvP effect your guild status if your guild loses a keep it owns, gives buffs for owning a certain number of keeps/bases/supply lines to name just a few. Your faction doesnt own any bases? Well then you cant do endgame PvE until you get some of them back. So these 3 games have my interest, SWtoR would need. MAJOR overhaul to even.come close to retaining my sub

Rofl sorry but this is not a Hardcore game at all, I dont consider any "PvE content" Hardcore in any game, and if you are a Hardcore PvP'r then you dont play SWtoR since the PvP in SWtoR doesnt matter,at all. Soooooo....no endgame PvP, boring PvE (PvE is always boring but w/e) and you dont have a "winning MMO"

Guild Wars 2 Beta Stress Test today @ 2PM Eastern too 9PM Eastern I like what GW2 is doing, it is a nice mixture of Sandbox and Theme Park Then for PvP they have pretty much copied Dark Age of Camelot RvR ( NOT Warhammer RvR thank gawd) and it is addicting as hell, first beta weekend people wouldnt get up from their computers since WvWvW DAoC style RvR had them hooked GW2 also has SPvP matches for all you "10 minute Warzone capture the flag people"....but WvWvW is the main attraction, true endgame PvP that sooooo many MMOs lack today Pretty much the "post-WoW" MMORPG genre has been awful, now games like GW 2 and ESO are taking MMOs "back to their roots" in a modern way....and thank gawd for that:)

This is all true, and to the guy stating that MMO's take time, that statement is also true...However, Guild Wars 2 is light years ahead of SWtor in everything except voice overs and equal on graphics, and it's still in Beta, so it seems the Guild Wars 2 designers actually studied the history of MMo's, what and what not to do when making one, and have utilized that knowledge to make a great game

A "tournament rated" WoW player giving advice, wow...just, wow WoW PvP is a joke, I always knew this was the case, but was finally cemented in reality during GW2's 1st Betas, as every QQ post on the beta forums about getting destroyed in PvP had a "QQ I was good at WoW but now I suck!!" sig attached to them.

They need to implement a "PvP/RvR Endgame" that MATTERS.....Period. 10 minute long Warzones can be fun, but that is certainly not Endgame PvP where I come from. Give all players a reason to PvP on an "RvR Plante/s"...and the stakes should be high, high enough that if a system wide alert goes out that the Imperial Base/Keeps are under attack and in Danger of falling to the Repubs, thg even Imperial PVE players will scramble out to defend said base/keeps. Like if your side loses control of all your bases, you cant do hardmodes anymore...you woukd see thounsands of PvE players PvPing all of a sudden, and would bring more of a community feeling to this game than just pvping for gear, which is individual based not group or even guild based GW2 will have these features, so will ESO...DAoC has had them for years with Darkness Fals...its about time BioWare woke up to the new features of PvP in newer MMOs

DAoC was voted best PvP MMO ever by multiple gaming websites and it has CHARACTER progression, NO gear progression. In DAoC your character progressed in PvP by killing other players, taking keeps and towers and earning "Realm Points" with Realm Rank. With these realm points you spent these on awesome new spells/abilites, upgrading your stats, getting group buffs, insta heals etc etc.... So to sit here and say that the only way for MMOs to have PvP progression is by earning new gear is ridiculous. Thank gawd Guild Wars 2 will not have gear progression, but your chatlracter will still progress just like DAoC. Also Elder Scrolls online will be a 3 Faction RvR game with. no gear progression in PvP, they will have a system similar to DAoC's realm abilites:)

Ya I've noticed this cat before also, there is no way he can be this blind to the failures of SWtoR. Either that or he has never played or experienced any very good MMORPGs, and SWtoR is his first one. The simple thing with SWtoR is this: Most expensive MMORPG ever made but you wouldn't know it by playing the game. Soo many basic features and concepts are missing, immerrsion is non-existant, no pvp endgame that matters, too just name a few.

Who cares at this point? Youll still be playing the same 4 Warzones over and over and over......talk about burning your pvp community out fast lol Its sad when a 7 hour Beta Stress Test on Monday for Guild Wars 2 has me waaaaayyyy more excited than anything "live SWtoR" can offer. Warzones would be fun, if they werent the main focus of PvP, i.e implementing an RvR planet that effects everyones endgame would not only make PvP more meaningful and intense, but since it would effect endgame you would even have more people participating in PvP gamewide, and thats a good thing. GW2, DAoC and soon ESO......all 3 of these games have and will have PvP that actually MATTERS So Im sure youll like rated Warzones for 2-3months...then after playing them for the gazlillionth time you will be looking to expand your PvP...and its pretty obvious SWtoR is not going to provide that