Bioware should be punished. There is no way they do not know this exists.

[Bluetickone]

wow did you blow it -- regen doesnt have to be noralized across different classes. thats what is fun and interesting about SWTOR.

 

Georg blew it too -- MIRROR classes should have normalized regen rates, they dont, and there is no viable explanation for that.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Bluetickone

[Spatzimaus]

It wont be, he wont even read what people posted after him

 

Unfortunately, you're probably right. The only posts Bioware employees have made in ANY Operative or Scoundrel forums (all seven of them in the past four months) have clearly been cherry-picked to be ones where they could take the high road by criticizing the original commenter, without having to actually address the underlying issues that led to the comments. There's no possible way anyone who comes into this forum could have missed the gigantic, detailed, and remarkably polite threads discussing the balance issues and/or suggestions for PvE changes that wouldn't unbalance PvP. The Smuggler/Scoundrel forums have these as well, as does the Agent forum, and there have been plenty of threads in the Role or General Discussion forums as well. And yet, THIS is the thread he picks to comment on, and does so in as pointless a way as possible, telling us what we already know in as dismissive a manner as possible to end all further discussion.

 

At this point, there's a very real possibility that the day 1.2's changes hit the test server I'll be canceling my subscription. Because unless the unannounced (so far) balance changes for 1.2 have a MASSIVE impact on our class, it'll just show that the developers do not and will not ever care about maintaining actual gameplay balance; it's become absolutely clear to me that no one at Bioware actually plays the game, or at least not as this class. It doesn't help that the class affected is one I play, but I've seen too many MMOs fail because of developers who won't listen to the players that contradict The Vision and I would have no desire to go through that yet again even if it wasn't my class getting the short end of the stick.

[QuickBunnie]

Who are you talking about? Me or the guy you quoted.

 

I honestly don't care what he says to defend it.

 

All out healing as an operative, you run out of energy. Im in full champ/bm gear, my heals are strong. There is no way you are healing to an acceptable amount and not running out of energy.

 

 

I mean, yeah, maybe he is warzone healing with just diagnostic scan and not running out of energy,

 

Did you talent Surgical probe? If you are all out healing, that has got to mean somebody is dropping below 30%. Which means (talented) Surgical probes are free. It's a solid instant heal that's free. Once you get this, your energy problems will be solved (if you are smart).

 

I can understand if you're a mid level healer without a talented surgical probe - every real heal you have costs energy, so your rotations always costs stuff. In an emergency, that means you'll dip below 5-6 regen, and then you'll have to depend on your big energy regen to recover. That only happens every 2 minutes, so its pretty bleh for PvP.

 

If you want to complain about agent/smuggler healing, you can complain about their AoE healing which could be a little weaker in PvP and Ops (only 4 targets). I think it's fine, as IMHO a properly specced and played healer agent/smuggler is the best single target healer in the game.

[ironix]

Hey,

 

We're perfectly aware that this difference exists.

 

It's because, shockingly, Agents are not Inquisitors.

 

The mirror class for the Agent is the Smuggler, the mirror class for the Inquisitor is the Consular.

 

Just in case it wasn't clear: We have different classes in the game - that means they actually have different abilities, energy systems, costs, etc. In short: It's working as designed.

 

Georg

 

 

edit: fixed a typo where "Consular" should have appeared!

 

Updated my post count! =p

[Sookster]

Funny how Georg didn't give an answer to why we and merc has reduced regen when depleted. His statement of "agent isn't inquisistor" obviously means devs doesn't want any other classes to be as flexible and easy to play as inq's is.

 

 

Pvp isn't where I have problems, operations isn't either, it's hardmode/nightmares.

 

So.... why is there regen penalties?

Edited March 8, 2012 by Sookster

[Dampiel]

Funny how Georg didn't give an answer to why we and merc has reduced regen when depleted. His statement of "agent isn't inquisistor" obviously means devs doesn't want any other classes to be as flexible and easy to play as inq's is.

 

 

Pvp isn't where I have problems, operations isn't either, it's hardmode/nightmares.

 

So.... why is there regen penalties?

 

BECAUSE NOTHING WILL EVER BE AS GOOD AS OUR SORC/SAGES IN A FAST PACED TEAM BASED SCENARIO - Bioware

 

and you still cant have a quote count towards the 5 chars even if you are totally making it up

Edited March 8, 2012 by Dampiel

[Howbadisbad]

Unfortunately, you're probably right. The only posts Bioware employees have made in ANY Operative or Scoundrel forums (all seven of them in the past four months) have clearly been cherry-picked to be ones where they could take the high road by criticizing the original commenter, without having to actually address the underlying issues that led to the comments. There's no possible way anyone who comes into this forum could have missed the gigantic, detailed, and remarkably polite threads discussing the balance issues and/or suggestions for PvE changes that wouldn't unbalance PvP. The Smuggler/Scoundrel forums have these as well, as does the Agent forum, and there have been plenty of threads in the Role or General Discussion forums as well. And yet, THIS is the thread he picks to comment on, and does so in as pointless a way as possible, telling us what we already know in as dismissive a manner as possible to end all further discussion.

 

At this point, there's a very real possibility that the day 1.2's changes hit the test server I'll be canceling my subscription. Because unless the unannounced (so far) balance changes for 1.2 have a MASSIVE impact on our class, it'll just show that the developers do not and will not ever care about maintaining actual gameplay balance; it's become absolutely clear to me that no one at Bioware actually plays the game, or at least not as this class. It doesn't help that the class affected is one I play, but I've seen too many MMOs fail because of developers who won't listen to the players that contradict The Vision and I would have no desire to go through that yet again even if it wasn't my class getting the short end of the stick.

 

I do enjoy reading your posts Spaz. I wish a BW employee would respond to them instead of things like the OP.

[Turando]

They are trying to make the game unbalanced to make the game easier for their most played class so that their most played class has a greater incentive to subscribe. This is criminal. Throwing us under the bus to appease their sorcerers/sages.

 

Pretty serious charge, care to know the definition of libel?

[ironix]

Pretty serious charge, care to know the definition of libel?

 

Care to know the definition of hyperbole? Or were you being facetious?

 

In any case, the OP way off-base in his angry arguments. Georg Zoeller trolling this post doesn't help.

[Darth_Eminok]

Strange. I remember a few years ago, probably at the beginning of formation of the game, that they said they were aiming to make all the classes BALANCED.

[DizzD]

Funny how Georg didn't give an answer to why we and merc has reduced regen when depleted. His statement of "agent isn't inquisistor" obviously means devs doesn't want any other classes to be as flexible and easy to play as inq's is.

 

 

Pvp isn't where I have problems, operations isn't either, it's hardmode/nightmares.

 

So.... why is there regen penalties?

 

THIS

 

In NiM if you aren't running Sorc healers you're just making things unnecessarily hard on yourself.

[Cyntric]

I flagged Georg's post as a troll.

[Ojas]

Updated my post count! =p

 

Dude.

 

Your sig.

Guess who did the initial research for it.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=2699955#post2699955

 

 

This thread, is valid. Georg didn't even address the original post. He simply said "working as intended". It's working as intended that Operatives are limited by Energy levels/regen and Sorcerers are not limited by Force levels/regen. What do Operatives get in compensation for that simple fact? Nothing. Sorcerers still have better heals. Stronger heals. More effective heals.

Sorcerers also have the ability to acquire multiple ally buffs.

 

Couple that with:

Force run

Force pull

Overload (AOE knockback)

 

A significant burst resource pool restore system (consumption) that isn't on a 2 minute cooldown. They are not limited by having to put 4 talent point into an ability to make it remotely viable.

[Knewt]

Hey,

 

We're perfectly aware that this difference exists.

 

It's because, shockingly, Agents are not Inquisitors.

 

The mirror class for the Agent is the Smuggler, the mirror class for the Inquisitor is the Consular.

 

Just in case it wasn't clear: We have different classes in the game - that means they actually have different abilities, energy systems, costs, etc. In short: It's working as designed.

 

Georg

 

 

edit: fixed a typo where "Consular" should have appeared!

Really? The best response you have is to troll the OP? Don't you have something better to do? You could create a blog detailing the 1.2 changes for people who have jobs that don't let them watch live feeds during the middle of the day?

[Ich_Bin]

Dude.

 

Your sig.

Guess who did the initial research for it.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=2699955#post2699955

 

 

This thread, is valid. Georg didn't even address the original post. He simply said "working as intended". It's working as intended that Operatives are limited by Energy levels/regen and Sorcerers are not limited by Force levels/regen. What do Operatives get in compensation for that simple fact? Nothing. Sorcerers still have better heals. Stronger heals. More effective heals.

Sorcerers also have the ability to acquire multiple ally buffs.

 

Couple that with:

Force run

Force pull

Overload (AOE knockback)

 

A significant burst resource pool restore system (consumption) that isn't on a 2 minute cooldown. They are not limited by having to put 4 talent point into an ability to make it remotely viable.

 

It's all true and it's not funny.

 

While I think it's good that different classes have different energy management it seems obvious that the class that has the worse energy management should get compensated for it by having better abilites.

But instead Sorcs/Sages get the whole package: better healing, better utility, better survivability, better energy management.

And what do Operative/Scoundrel healers get? Stealth which they cannot use since they are locked in combat as soon as they heal anyone.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Ich_Bin

[RuQu]

Really? The best response you have is to troll the OP? Don't you have something better to do? You could create a blog detailing the 1.2 changes for people who have jobs that don't let them watch live feeds during the middle of the day?

 

Or leak us the 1.2 Notes for the healing classes so we can see the incoming buffs and nerfs for ourselves, and get a sense of the Dev balance perception based on the quantity and nature of those changes.

[ironix]

Or leak us the 1.2 Notes for the healing classes so we can see the incoming buffs and nerfs for ourselves, and get a sense of the Dev balance perception based on the quantity and nature of those changes.

 

A constructive and helpful dev post? Blasphemy!

[Spatzimaus]

Or leak us the 1.2 Notes for the healing classes so we can see the incoming buffs and nerfs for ourselves, and get a sense of the Dev balance perception based on the quantity and nature of those changes.

 

The problem is that Georg has said several times that Operatives are "working as intended" and are fully balanced with Sorcerers. If that's true, then there's absolutely no chance the 1.2 changes would include anything that'd fundamentally alter the balance between the two classes, beyond the Force Bending bug fix. This leads to an obvious disconnect; either Georg isn't in the loop and fundamental changes WILL happen, or he is and 1.2's initial patch notes won't include anything we would consider acceptable. Given that he's pretty much the only developer making "content" posts (i.e., something other than the status of a specific server), I'd say the chances of the former option are slim at best. This means that the best we can probably hope for is to be vocally upset with the 1.2 patch notes when they ARE released, in the hopes that the developers will re-evaluate the issues we've been discussing.

 

And yes, it's very disheartening that the only "official" posts in our forums have been dismissive at best, if not outright trolling.

[Sookster]

Strange. I remember a few years ago, probably at the beginning of formation of the game, that they said they were aiming to make all the classes BALANCED.

 

Don't forget about them saying that this game won't be a grind fest...

[lexiekaboom]

Hey,

 

We're perfectly aware that this difference exists.

 

It's because, shockingly, Agents are not Inquisitors.

 

The mirror class for the Agent is the Smuggler, the mirror class for the Inquisitor is the Consular.

 

Just in case it wasn't clear: We have different classes in the game - that means they actually have different abilities, energy systems, costs, etc. In short: It's working as designed.

 

Georg

 

 

edit: fixed a typo where "Consular" should have appeared!

 

Waiting for Edit: Fixed it add the professionalism that can be expected from someone in my position. Or general people over 12.

[Maxillious]

GZ was having a bad day and let off some steam. Now his bad day spiraled out of control into a pile of steaming crap over one poor post.

[Howbadisbad]

Hey,

 

We're perfectly aware that this difference exists.

 

It's because, shockingly, Agents are not Inquisitors.

 

The mirror class for the Agent is the Smuggler, the mirror class for the Inquisitor is the Consular.

 

Just in case it wasn't clear: We have different classes in the game - that means they actually have different abilities, energy systems, costs, etc. In short: It's working as designed.

 

Georg

 

 

edit: fixed a typo where "Consular" should have appeared!

 

What Georg is trying to say:

We are perfectly aware that Operatives are inferior to every other class.

 

Because shockingly, Operatives do not have lightsabers.

 

The mirror class for the Agent is the animation locked Smuggler.

 

Just in case it wasn't clear: There are other classes in the game besides Operatives - this means that you can reroll another class with superior abilities, energy systems, costs, etc. In Short: Be a Sorc, I <3 Sorcs.

[Spatzimaus]

GZ was having a bad day and let off some steam.

 

And in any normal job, if you choose to "let off some steam" by insulting your customers, YOU GET FIRED. Stress is never an acceptable excuse for this sort of behavior by an employee. But we shouldn't be expecting anything to happen here, since we've never seen anyone else post on these boards and so all complaints (including those people who reported his post) most likely go straight to his desk in the first place.

 

All I'd like is one thing. Just one: the name of a developer who plays a level 50 Operative on a public server. I'd prefer both one DPS Op and one Healer, but at this point I'll settle for one of either. I don't need to know what in-game name he/she uses, what server, what specific build, et cetera. I just want an honest official confirmation that there's someone involved in the development process who is fully aware of our issues through personal experience. When our only point of contact is Georg, there exists the real possibillity that none of our complaints, suggestions, or experiences are ever getting to those people whose job it is to determine game balance. This is supposed to be the entire job of a "community representative", and as far as we can tell it's not being done, at least for our class.

 

Without any kind of information exchange, we're never going to improve. We can complain or suggest whatever we want, and nothing significant might ever be done since all of Georg's "working as intended" statements have supported the view that while there are differences between the classes, they're already factored into the balance assessments. The official position is that barring a couple bugs the classes are well-balanced; there can be no change made as long as this belief persists within the developers' conversations.

[Sookster]

And in any normal job, if you choose to "let off some steam" by insulting your customers, YOU GET FIRED.

 

While I agree that you would get fired for such actions, JD_2020 from Treyarch as well as Garvin and Draakul in SWG did this on a regular basis and they were never fired.

[Ariqor]

Working as intended. -giggles-