Bioware should be punished. There is no way they do not know this exists.

[LeperJack]

I like how all the sorcers are reading the Dev Tracker and coming in here to post snide remarks.

And a couple of Mercs as well.

 

(The more you know!: clicking a person's name, then clicking the statistics tab will bring up the option to show previous posts... Like where a poster has spent days talking about Sage specific skill trees and Merc healing.)

 

Just a polite reminder that if your success depends on my failure, you're in a very sad place.

Edited March 8, 2012 by LeperJack

[Ojas]

Hey Georg! How about posting in an operative thread that actually matters?

Like the 20 pages of people begging for some impossible to find feedback on our PvE damage?

Keep ignoring all the constructive threads asking for developer feedback, and respond to the ones that make Operatives look stupid! Well done!

 

How is my original post incorrect?

 

It's a simple fact. If we go below a certain energy level, our regen makes it significantly worse than a sorcerers.

 

Not to mention the fact that a sorcerer gets a must larger pool to power heal with and they do not have to worry about holding back to keep regen at a level that is viable.

[Scotland]

You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din. You managed to not use the words "moron", "nitwit", "jerk", and "smeghead" in your reply; I would have.

 

Hell, if I were in your position, and I saw the OP's post, I'd access his account info, and forward it to every spam mailing list and Nigerian Prince I could find. This is why they don't give me jobs where I have to deal with customers any more.

 

Please, developers -- a little more smack-down like this would go a long, long, way. The time for polite pandering is over.

 

smeghead sounds so wrong lol.

[Lunasy]

So what you are saying is that if an OP keeps his energy regen where it should be, then his energy regen is better than force regen.

 

Got it.

 

Thank you for being the voice of wisdom here.

 

Here's the thing, you should never, and I mean NEVER let your energy really get below 50%. If you're doing this, your doing something wrong. As a Powertech Tank, our resource system is the complete oppsosite. Whereas you start at 100 and work down, we start at 0 and work up, however the system is still the same. That being said, as a Powertech, letting your heat get over 50% (Energy under 50% as an Operative), you're only gimping yourself. While I get that there are times, specifically "Oh-****" moments when you have to burn to keep people alive, that's what your cool-downs are for, and you need to use them accordingly.

 

Surprisingly, Operative healers are some of the best healers in-game, from a single-target standpoint. From an AoE standpoint, your heals are very-much-so lacking, partially because your AoE heal only affects 3 people, and it only affects people in your party, whereas a sorc's AoE heal hits 8 people, across a raid, or a merc hits 3 people, across a raid.

 

While a sorc healer might bring more mobility to the table, arguably an operative brings more utility, which I would take any day. Tac Advantage allowing Surgical Probe under 30% health to be both free AND instant, with only the GCD as it's CD... Can you agrue that that's not beneficial to an Operative? I've done many instances / operations where our Operative will purposefully keep my at the 30% mark for the free heal so that he can regenerate enough Energy to get him back onto his feet and give him some breathing room.

 

Your letting yourself get worked up over silly, inconsequential, and to be completely honest, arbitrary things.

[Serahn]

Pre-pull, you want to get two stacks of Kolto Probe on the tank. Cast Kolto Injection twice to get two stacks of Tactical Advantage. Burn one stack to get Stim Boost.

 

Your main priority is to keep to 2 stacks of Kolto Probe on the tank. Not only does this provide constant healing, it also gives a chance to grant Tactical Advantage. After that the Operative has a lot of options.

 

Any time you have 2 stacks of Tactical Advantage, you want to burn it, so not to waste any Medical Engineering procs. First, refresh Stim Boost if possible. Next use Surgical Probe to heal lowest health person or tank depending on the fight.

 

If someone still needs healing, now is the time to use Kolto Injection.

 

If you have less than 60 energy and no immediate healing needs done, use Diagnostic Scan to heal and recover energy.

 

If you have more than 60 energy and no immediate healing needs done, use corrosive dart or shiv.

 

If the whole group takes damage, use Recuperative Nanotech. All dps have an ability to keep themselves alive long for you to heal the tank up and then worry about them. Whether they use it or not is player dependent.

 

If the tank takes spike damage, you can spam Surgical Probe till above 30% health. Then rotate Kolto Injection and Surgical Probe. After the tank is back at a safe health and still has 2 stacks of Kolto Probe, you will probably need to use Adrenaline Probe to recover energy above 60.

 

I know the above looks a lot like a priority system, but it should not follow it strictly. An Operative needs to use her Crowd Control abilities also. Preventing damage is just as important as healing it. The Operative has Debilitate (4 sec stun), Orbital Strike, Flashbang (blinds up to 5 enemies), and Slice Droid that can be used in combat. While these can’t be used on bosses, bosses often have adds that they will work on. Pre-combat, the Operative has Sleep Dart. Also the Operative has Distraction, an ability interrupt. DPS and tank should cover that but you can’t always rely on them.

[Scotland]

How is my original post incorrect?

 

It's a simple fact. If we go below a certain energy level, our regen makes it significantly worse than a sorcerers.

 

Not to mention the fact that a sorcerer gets a must larger pool to power heal with and they do not have to worry about holding back to keep regen at a level that is viable.

 

 

their single target heals are way more powerful, this is why.

[Ojas]

Pre-pull, you want to get two stacks of Kolto Probe on the tank. Cast Kolto Injection twice to get two stacks of Tactical Advantage. Burn one stack to get Stim Boost.

 

Your main priority is to keep to 2 stacks of Kolto Probe on the tank. Not only does this provide constant healing, it also gives a chance to grant Tactical Advantage. After that the Operative has a lot of options.

 

Any time you have 2 stacks of Tactical Advantage, you want to burn it, so not to waste any Medical Engineering procs. First, refresh Stim Boost if possible. Next use Surgical Probe to heal lowest health person or tank depending on the fight.

 

If someone still needs healing, now is the time to use Kolto Injection.

 

If you have less than 60 energy and no immediate healing needs done, use Diagnostic Scan to heal and recover energy.

 

If you have more than 60 energy and no immediate healing needs done, use corrosive dart or shiv.

 

If the whole group takes damage, use Recuperative Nanotech. All dps have an ability to keep themselves alive long for you to heal the tank up and then worry about them. Whether they use it or not is player dependent.

 

If the tank takes spike damage, you can spam Surgical Probe till above 30% health. Then rotate Kolto Injection and Surgical Probe. After the tank is back at a safe health and still has 2 stacks of Kolto Probe, you will probably need to use Adrenaline Probe to recover energy above 60.

 

I know the above looks a lot like a priority system, but it should not follow it strictly. An Operative needs to use her Crowd Control abilities also. Preventing damage is just as important as healing it. The Operative has Debilitate (4 sec stun), Orbital Strike, Flashbang (blinds up to 5 enemies), and Slice Droid that can be used in combat. While these can’t be used on bosses, bosses often have adds that they will work on. Pre-combat, the Operative has Sleep Dart. Also the Operative has Distraction, an ability interrupt. DPS and tank should cover that but you can’t always rely on them.

 

 

Lets compare prepull mechanics.

 

Kolto Probe costs 15 energy.

Needs to be stacked 2 times.

 

Costs 30% of our base 100 energy.

 

 

Static Barrier costs 65 force.

Only needs to be applied one time.

Costs 13% of their base 500 force.

 

 

Fact is;

Operatives are limited by their energy/energy regen system. It's harder to manage.

Sorcerers are not.

 

 

So why are sorcerer heals stronger.

 

Where is the operative advantage?

 

Operatives have to hold back.

Sorcerers do not.

So why are sorcerer heals stronger? How is that balanced.

 

 

Yes. Our energy regen is slightly stronger ONLY if we stay above a certain energy level.

So we have to hold back.

If we fall below that level (IE: High damage situation that requires a lot of healing), sorcerers regen becomes stronger. They don't have to worry about that. It just is.

 

Plus the fact that sorcerers get a much! larger base pool.

 

 

Compare pools, regen to ABILITY COST as a ratio.

 

It makes no sense.

 

Kolto Injectio = 25 Energy cost; Operative base pool = 100; Operative max regen = 6 energy / s.

 

Dark Infusion = 55 Force cost; Sorcerer base pool = 500; Sorcerer fixed regen = 8 force / s.

 

Operatives have to hold back; Sorcerers do not.

END OF STORY.

It's unfair, unbalanced.

[Serahn]

Operatives have to hold back; Sorcerers do not.

END OF STORY.

It's unfair, unbalanced.

 

Yes, they do. But that's not unfair, or unbalanced. It's the class.

 

Sorry to bring in a WoW example. My mage. No tank in the GAME could stop me from pulling threat if I wanted to.

 

I held back every second of my raiding life.

 

That was the trick. Squeezing in insane DPS, a hair below that threshold that would make me the tank.

 

Sorcerers don't have to hold back? No, you're right they don't. They can throw everything they have to try to outheal a smart Operative and still fail. LOL.

[Lunasy]

Operatives have to hold back; Sorcerers do not.

END OF STORY.

It's unfair, unbalanced.

 

That's a completely baseless statement right there, because that's not true in the slightest. Sorcerers have to hold back just as much as an Operative does, because like you, their resource is as limited as an Operative.

 

Their heals require just as much resources as yours do, they're just inflated numbers to deal with the fact that they have a much larger resource pool, so accordingly, they cost more. A sorcerer who completely burns himself down to 0 force power will be in just as much trouble as you, and technically more-so then you. Their only saving grace is their Consumption, but to do this, they have to take their own HP away in a trade for Force Power. In a fight where there's ton's of AoE damage being thrown out, this isn't' necessarily a good thing as then the Sorcerer has to not only drain his own resources to keep himself topped off, but also becomes a burden on any other healer there that has to additionally heal said healer for inflicting damage on himself.

 

Just because they have a constant force regeneration anywhere between 0-100% doesn't mean that they're the better for it.

[Redsatyr]

What do you propose? A good flogging?

 

Silly thread is silly.

[Coldin]

Here's the thing, you should never, and I mean NEVER let your energy really get below 50%. If you're doing this, your doing something wrong. As a Powertech Tank, our resource system is the complete oppsosite. Whereas you start at 100 and work down, we start at 0 and work up, however the system is still the same. That being said, as a Powertech, letting your heat get over 50% (Energy under 50% as an Operative), you're only gimping yourself. While I get that there are times, specifically "Oh-****" moments when you have to burn to keep people alive, that's what your cool-downs are for, and you need to use them accordingly.

 

So basically, Operative and Scoundrel only really have 50 energy. We basically have half a bar of energy we should never use.

 

Personally, I'd love it if we had some middle ground for energy regen.

 

 

By the way, I looked at energy regen via my examination. According to that, it's 60-100 energy is 5/sec. 20-60 it's 3/sec. And <20 it's 2/sec.

 

So...why not change it to give us a bit more breathing room?

 

Make 40-60 give back 4/sec. That right there would help our energy regen feel a bit smoother when dip below that magical 60.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Coldin

[Ojas]

That's a completely baseless statement right there, because that's not true in the slightest. Sorcerers have to hold back just as much as an Operative does, because like you, their resource is as limited as an Operative.

 

Their heals require just as much resources as yours do, they're just inflated numbers to deal with the fact that they have a much larger resource pool, so accordingly, they cost more. A sorcerer who completely burns himself down to 0 force power will be in just as much trouble as you, and technically more-so then you. Their only saving grace is their Consumption, but to do this, they have to take their own HP away in a trade for Force Power. In a fight where there's ton's of AoE damage being thrown out, this isn't' necessarily a good thing as then the Sorcerer has to not only drain his own resources to keep himself topped off, but also becomes a burden on any other healer there that has to additionally heal said healer for inflicting damage on himself.

 

Just because they have a constant force regeneration anywhere between 0-100% doesn't mean that they're the better for it.

 

Um... my statement is baseless and yours isnt?

 

100 energy pool;

Kolto Injection costs 25 energy.

 

That's 25% of pool.

 

500 force pool;

Dark Infusion costs 55 force.

That's 11% of pool.

 

If Operative casts 3 KI's back to back. he is in a significantly reduced energy regen state. He has hurt himself.

 

If Sorcerer casts 3 Dark Infusions, he still has the force to cast 6 more Dark Infusions and never has to worry about hurting himself with a variable regen rate.

 

How, is my statement baseless and yours isn't.

[hammarus]

What it boils down to, is that Sorc/Sage are special. What makes Ops/Smugglers special?

[RuQu]

So basically, Operative and Scoundrel only really have 50 energy. We basically have half a bar of energy we should never use.

 

Personally, I'd love it if we had some middle ground for energy regen.

 

 

By the way, I looked at energy regen via my examination. According to that, it's 60-100 energy is 5/sec. 20-60 it's 3/sec. And <20 it's 2/sec.

 

So...why not change it to give us a bit more breathing room?

 

Make 40-60 give back 4/sec. That right there would help our energy regen feel a bit smoother when dip below that magical 60.

Right now it's

 

You already have more breathing room than either Mercs or Commandos. You have 40% at max regen, Mercs have 39%, and Commandos have 33%.

 

One of the key differences is that Mercs and Commandos have a tool for increased efficiency during burst, that also restores Ammo/Heat. You lack any such tools.

[LizardSF]

smeghead sounds so wrong lol.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elbz93pHJls

[Scotland]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elbz93pHJls

 

i knew where it was from lol, didnt originate in red dwarf tho

[Ojas]

So basically, Operative and Scoundrel only really have 50 energy. We basically have half a bar of energy we should never use.

 

Personally, I'd love it if we had some middle ground for energy regen.

 

 

By the way, I looked at energy regen via my examination. According to that, it's 60-100 energy is 5/sec. 20-60 it's 3/sec. And <20 it's 2/sec.

 

So...why not change it to give us a bit more breathing room?

 

Make 40-60 give back 4/sec. That right there would help our energy regen feel a bit smoother when dip below that magical 60.

Right now it's

 

My god.

Thank you.

 

I was beginning to think I was the only one with any degree of logical reasoning ability.

 

I mean really.

Am I the only one who saw this.

 

Hey,

 

It's because, shockingly, Agents are not Inquisitors.

 

The mirror class for the Agent is the Smuggler, the mirror class for the Inquisitor is the Smuggler.

 

Georg

 

Come on.... really. What is going on here.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Ojas

[Ich_Bin]

Hey,

 

We're perfectly aware that this difference exists.

 

It's because, shockingly, Agents are not Inquisitors.

 

The mirror class for the Agent is the Smuggler, the mirror class for the Inquisitor is the Smuggler.

 

Just in case it wasn't clear: We have different classes in the game - that means they actually have different abilities, energy systems, costs, etc. In short: It's working as designed.

 

Georg

 

Dear Mr. Zoeller,

the fact that you are making fun of people in this thread is a slap in the face to everyone who has patiently been waiting for you to comment on the current state of Scoundrels and Operatives.

Maybe you could finally find the time to reply here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=274261&page=5

 

Thank you very much!

 

# dev posts/replies to inquisitor/consular boards = 78

# dev posts/replies to warrior/jedi knight boards = 43

# dev posts/replies to bh/trooper boards = 52

# dev posts/replies to agent/smuggler boards = 7

Edited March 8, 2012 by Ich_Bin

[Lunasy]

 

Make 40-60 give back 4/sec. That right there would help our energy regen feel a bit smoother when dip below that magical 60.

Right now it's

 

40-60 does give you 4/sec back. 1-39= 5/s back; 40-59 = 4/sec back; 60-79= 3/sec back; 80-100= 2/sec back. (granted this is all from a Powertech's point of view, so an Operative would see 0-20 = 2/sec back, 21-40= 3/sec back, 41-60= 4/sec back, 61-100 = 5/sec back

 

The reason I say 50 is because when you're dealing with multiples of "10's and 25's", 50 is kind of that magic middle ground. It's very easy to push past 50 and go into the 70's mark without even seeing the 60's range. Once you hit that 70% depletion mark, you're in trouble, and that's where it becomes difficult to regain energy.

 

Ideally, you should be using your diagnostic scan (or whatever the very large crit %, free, small heal ability is) in between abilities for both the crits, and the energy regeneration you get from it. This goes for almost every class that has a free, spammable ability, sorcerer DPS aside as theirs is a melee ability that does nothing for them.

[Serahn]

He doesn't get it guys. He wants people to say the class is broken to validate his complaint.

 

But no one is saying that.

 

You can argue all the math you want. Operative heals are the most sought after and coveted heals on the Imperial side of my server.

 

That actually is a FACT.

 

You're facts are not facts, they are numbers. Numbers that neither prove nor disprove anything. Healing is an artform, revolving around style as much as it does numbers.

 

We have a tank in our guild who is as obsessed with numbers as much as you are. Rightfully, he sits on the bench because HE CANNOT THINK!

 

You are comparing two unlike things, and crying foul.

 

Yeah, well, Lindsay Lohan's boyfriend is more powerful than me because he has access to her breasts, which are far better than my wife's (both in appearance and functionality). Therefore he is superior to me. However, the logic of your theory folds when I consider letting Miss Lohan babysit my kids.

 

As asinine as my above logic is, it's cut from the logic of your entire argument.

[Ojas]

40-60 does give you 4/sec back. 1-39= 5/s back; 40-59 = 4/sec back; 60-79= 3/sec back; 80-100= 2/sec back. (granted this is all from a Powertech's point of view, so an Operative would see 0-20 = 2/sec back, 21-40= 3/sec back, 41-60= 4/sec back, 61-100 = 5/sec back

 

The reason I say 50 is because when you're dealing with multiples of "10's and 25's", 50 is kind of that magic middle ground. It's very easy to push past 50 and go into the 70's mark without even seeing the 60's range. Once you hit that 70% depletion mark, you're in trouble, and that's where it becomes difficult to regain energy.

 

Ideally, you should be using your diagnostic scan (or whatever the very large crit %, free, small heal ability is) in between abilities for both the crits, and the energy regeneration you get from it. This goes for almost every class that has a free, spammable ability, sorcerer DPS aside as theirs is a melee ability that does nothing for them.

 

Hey, buddy. These are the operative forums.

Not the BH forums.

[Lunasy]

Hey, buddy. These are the operative forums.

Not the BH forums.

 

Again I state that our resources are the same exact mechanic. Just opposite. Mine starts at 0, your's starts at 100, however the numbers are all the same.

[SuperGrunt]

Hey,

 

We're perfectly aware that this difference exists.

 

It's because, shockingly, Agents are not Inquisitors.

 

The mirror class for the Agent is the Smuggler, the mirror class for the Inquisitor is the Smuggler.

 

Just in case it wasn't clear: We have different classes in the game - that means they actually have different abilities, energy systems, costs, etc. In short: It's working as designed.

 

Georg

 

Georg, don't you mean Consular? just thought you might need a little help here.

[navido]

Again I state that our resources are the same exact mechanic. Just opposite. Mine starts at 0, your's starts at 100, however the numbers are all the same.

 

True, except for one small tiny little detail. After 60 our regen goes to 3, the tooltip SAYS 4 but we only gain 3 energy per tick...

 

 

Ideally, you should be using your diagnostic scan (or whatever the very large crit %, free, small heal ability is) in between abilities for both the crits, and the energy regeneration you get from it. This goes for almost every class that has a free, spammable ability, sorcerer DPS aside as theirs is a melee ability that does nothing for them.

 

Our "free diagnostic scan requires FOUR talent points to do that, just FYI and the energy regen from it is laughable, what does your hammershot do? Add stacks to get your best CD back? Trade you.

 

Look I'm not here to argue Commando Vs Smuggler (hahaha cute) this is a talk about Smuggler/Op healing and the poor state it's in right now.

Edited March 8, 2012 by navido

[Lunasy]

Georg, don't you mean Consular? just thought you might need a little help here.

 

Nice catch lol