Bio says no to macros at Guild Summit.

[Cretinus]

Without macros it's not possible to /lol, /spit, /swear, /shout etc. together with every single style, or to regularly block the chat with silly paintings. This alone is a very good reason for not wanting macros. Edited March 9, 2012 by Cretinus

[Faefrost]

I'm mixed on this. I am happy that we can't do the enormous 1 button push logic trees that WoW used to allow. You know the stuff that all but supported botting (or 1 button tanking).

 

But with that said a little bit of on the fly customization would be nice. Something like the most basic targeting assist macro (ie /assist <designated main attacker> and bind it to a hotkey.)

 

There needs to be some greater functionality then we have now. But ot doesn't need to be the full blown scripting monsters that we have seen in the past. Just some minor utility.

[Urkanan]

Without macros it's not possible to /lol, /spit, /swear, /shout etc. together with every single style, or to regularly block the chat with silly paintings. This alone is a very good reason for not wanting macros.

 

Yet those macros are all using the slash commands and chat usage that roleplayers "demand" and BW seems ok with allowing. Ironic?

 

 

I believe their rule is "one button press for one action". I agree with the BioWare devs in that that isn't a "macro" in the strictest sense of the term, but that's what Blizzard's "macro system" in WoW does and that's how it should work in SWTOR (and all MMOs imo)

 

The rule is "one button-press for one GCD trigger" more like. You can use a non-gcd "spell" and a regular one with 1 press, you can also use a trinket and cast with 1 press. Unsure about switching stance and casting, but I'd consider the others as 2 actions. And I wouldn't mind living without that anyway.

 

The real win about WoW "macro" system is that it lets you have the same button do a huge number of things, but it doesn't "think" for you.

 

You CANT have the macro decide based on health, buffs, cooldowns, distance, "mana", class, spec, etc. It doesn't select which spell is better, or even which is the right spell. I still don't see the problem with letting me use 1 and 2 for combat spells, and also for my rest and buff spells when I am out of combat, or use 1 to heal or attack depending on my target (*cough*otherwiseCombatSupportCilinderiscombatautomating*cough*), instead of having to map all 1 through 5 for the same number of functions.

 

Whats's with all the "nay" sayers, really? Kinda sad to see they didn't really stay at Blizzard's party.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Urkanan

[Mergon]

I've been saying for some time now that nobody from BioWare has ever played an MMORPG before. Blindly saying you hate macros (addons/target of target/combat log/any typical feature of a quality MMORPG) pretty much proves it.

 

I honestly don't think it has anything to do with hate. It more likely has to do with using a 3rd party engine, its limitations, and the fact that BioWare lives in a vacuum where they ignore any and all progress in MMORPG history, impliment all features like it's 10 years ago, insist on encountering the same mistakes many other games have made and grown away from, do not impliment basic features found in amost all other MMORPGs (target of target, combat log, readycheck, basic/simple macro support), and live in a vacuum where they are right and the rest of the MMORPG genre, including games vastly more succesful than they'll ever be, are wrong.

 

You have to understand thought, 7 out of 10 of those against ingame macros use external mouse & keyboard macros which allow for things that we wouldn't be able to do in WoW or even Rift.

 

The reason most of them are against ingame macros is because then they lose a good portion of their macro granted advantages because they could afford macro-supporting hardware.

[MaGicBush]

Very glad this was said, good job Bioware!

[Mergon]

Those who can afford to buy the peripherals which come with SWTOR branded on them, can set up macros. Why shouldn't we be allowed to set up similar macros if we're not using high-end hardware? There are already enough advantages to be gained from having a better computer, or having a better internet connection. This affects the fairness of the game, but nobody at Bioware's complaining about selling another keyboard or mouse with macro features and the SWTOR name all over it. If macros are not available in-game, then it should be across the board and should include the afformentioned harware.

 

I question Bioware fairness on a lot of issues, moreover, maybe the developers and the publisher are more than happy to hide behind a guise of "fairness" in order to promote sales. Pure speculation, but I'm always suspicious when the people who can afford to are permitted to buy themselves an advantage. Sounds too much like capitalism.

 

/cheer

+1

 

I've been saying this all along.

 

Read over all the macro posts you can stomach and you will find that for the most part those protesting against macros use macro-enable hardware and/or are recommending/telling you to buy such hardware to keep macros out of the game.

 

In my opinion, they don't want ingame macros simply to keep the advantages their hardware grants them.

 

It is obvious that Bioware supports this concept from a financial side of things due to the SW:ToR branding of such hardware; aka - We don't want to put a limited combat macro system in the game but will support the sale of hardware macro hardware which provides for a much more extensive macro programming script.

 

I say to BW, add a scanning feature to the game launcher or login application that closes out the game if it detects macro software installed and running. I can think of several ways to do this along the path of a virus scanner. balance the playing field, since that is what most of what those against macros SAY they want. No macros for anyone except whatever BW eventually installs.

[MartinSPT]

If you're invoking the Guild Summit, let's be a bit more precise about what we've said:

 

A) Macros are a possibility in the future. We don't hate them.

 

B) I am opposed to macros that automate combat (shouldn't be a surprise). I'd rather take tedious things (such as sprint turning off after death) and modify the design than to rely on people to create macros to deal with these things - which creates unnecessary barriers of entry in my opinion.

 

C) We don't consider interface improvements and quality of life features (e.g. mouse over healing) to be macros (so 2 does not apply)

 

D) Macros for social behaviors, etc are definitely a possibility too.

 

Truly love hearing this...

 

Most people do not like Macro combat, so we/they agree on this.

 

However, in a vast MMO like this, there is a lot of unique uses of Macros that could be added to the game to create social and interactive experiences.

 

For example, Macros that can create custom player animations by positioning limbs, movement, facial expressions, and coordination with other players that are already a part of the HeroEngine scripts and withing the guidelines of existing animation constraints. (i.e. A player's arm isn't moving in a way that makes skin/clothing look weird as it is within the parameters of existing models and animations.)

 

In SWG some of the most brilliant use of Macros can still be seen in the 'productions' of music videos and 'plays' and other coordination of existing in game emotes to create a living world.

 

Adding in more control of the players and companions, players could literally be performing Hamlet in city social areas and stages. And it may seem a bit silly, but there are far more creative use than even my concept of using macros that has a lot of control over players and objects in the world.

 

 

____________________

So, VERY happy to hear that Macros are not unilaterally a NEVER going to happen, and could be something to look forward to as the game matures.

[Ka-tel]

Combat macros is the worst thing to come to MMOs ever.

 

It's crack for lazy players IMO.

 

This, infinity.

[Knockerz]

Combat macros making healing easier especially in premades or in pve raids. You always have the same tanks or in pvp some one that always needs more healing than others. Thus, having a macro for them makes so that you can heal them faster, plus you can make a macro that self targets you so you can heal your self faster. Just makes healing more dynamic and easier. Also helps for dps like to assist the tanks. I know in wow when I played my rogue on hm in icecrown I had macros for trick of the trade to use on the tanks. It was very efficient and I could switch tricks quickly. Edited March 9, 2012 by Knockerz

[Sylriana]

logic macros can be bad for a game, but all macros period? That'd be awful.. there's so many keybinds in this game that being able to consolidate some of your skills with macros would be a massive help.

[Nexdine]

The bottom line here is that Bioware is responsible for making sure the classes balance and keeping track of the skills themselves, their DPS and so forth. As long as they enforce that and there is no way to play better than optimal - ie, using your abilities to the absolute fullest but not beyond - there is no problem with macros.

 

Setting up optimal macros isn't easy either and a poorly timed interrupt from an enemy could easily throw a serious hitch into the gallop of anyone trying to create a whole combat macro series and running that over and over.

 

So I'm personally in their corner insofar as if they choose not to implement in-game macroing and they consider the game is being played now the way they envisioned it playing, then that is something I can respect.

 

It is perfectly possible to play just as well without macros as it is to play with them - people make it sound like macros alone would somehow make you into an unstoppable God-like being, but as long as they don't in some way exploit a weakness in the game client then a good player who doesn't macro can play just as well as a macroer - probably better if he/she uses their brains and flows with the situations and uses their skills optimally in each situation.

 

A good human will always beat a bad automated sequence, and a good human can always match a great automated sequence - if the game sets limits on what either can do at optimum. A human obviously can't beat a macro on how quickly they can click a mouse button repeated and some such, but those features are useless in SWTOR and don't apply.

 

So - if Bioware doesn't want the game to have built-in macros, more power to them, but others will use external macroing systems anyway and there is no way they can OR SHOULD TRY to stop that. Only pure exploits or hackery should be stomped on with a vengeance instead.

[Frostvein]

I'd really like to know why I can't have a /target something /use ability macro.

 

 

I wouldn't care if you limited the amount of lines you could have per macro (2-3 actions)

 

It just seems silly that I can't streamline my abilities. Things such as

 

/cast Weaken Mind

/cast Turbulance

 

I don't see how that is gamebreaking, especially when my keyboard can do it anyway.

[DJunior]

Macros = lazy.

 

Disagree. Macros = no carpal tunnel, no arthritis.

 

Even with macros I'm still using a lot more buttons than are available on say.... an Xbox controller. The people at Bioware should have thought about building a game that broke barriers and improved gameplay mechanics to the point where macros would have been an afterthought. Fact, they created this debate by sticking to the WoW model. Even now their replies to the subject are so vague that they do nothing but create more confusion, negative threads and negative posts. The problem is that they wanted to wait on our response. They let the gameplay suffer while they waited on our response, and now, based on their open-ended, unclear comments, what seems clear is that they don't have a plan. Without macros, the gameplay is archaic even when you compare it to 7 year-old WoW. Even with macros, it might only ever be on par. It's still the same general model.

Edited March 9, 2012 by DJunior

[cipher_nemo]

I say to BW, add a scanning feature to the game launcher or login application that closes out the game if it detects macro software installed and running. I can think of several ways to do this along the path of a virus scanner. balance the playing field, since that is what most of what those against macros SAY they want. No macros for anyone except whatever BW eventually installs.

 

That's nearly impossible. You can't scan for something if you don't know what you're looking for. There is a ton of scripting software available today, many of which can compile your script into its own executable. Worse, anyone can create their own program and compile it themselves to do global macros. So there's nothing to distinguish this sort of program from other memory-resident programs.

 

Korean/Chinese gaming developers have been adding anti-cheat software (think DRM but with a more nasty root-like presence) to their MMOs for years. It still doesn't detect everything. Worse, it's third-party stuff that updates and bugs out all the time, crippling your game.

 

If you're asking Bioware to add something like this then you have absolutely no clue about the horrors of that cruddy software.

 

Bioware has handled cheating somewhat ok so far by banning the more blatant cheaters and patching the client to prevent exploits. More importantly, though, not all macros are considered cheating. In fact, the majority of macros out there do not exploit the game or automate combat. The majority of them are being used by honest gamers who enjoy their convenience. On top of that, there are a great number of disabled gamers who need macros to help them play PC games. Paralysis, partial paralysis, eyesight issues (eg: tunnel vision), and severe carpel tunnel syndrome all play a part. Please think outside of your own shoes before requesting something so blindly.

Edited March 9, 2012 by cipher_nemo

[Harden]

I hate to say it but Combat Macro's does not make a player's character any much better! I faced a player on SWG both of us Elder Jedi's and i kicked his arse 9/10 times and he used combat macro's and i did not!

So saying Combat macro's gives you an advantage is wrong, yes they might help in the timing of certain skills, but if ya hands are quick enough and you are more adept to paying attention to the skills you can out beat anyone with a combat macro!

[Cancrizans]

For the love of god what what do they have against macros.

 

For the love of god what do you people have against actually having to learn to use your skills as the designers intended instead of placing them on all 5 easy to mash buttons?

[Akash]

For the love of god what do you people have against actually having to learn to use your skills as the designers intended instead of placing them on all 5 easy to mash buttons?

 

Even with full macro support, your entire hotbar will be filled up and you'll use all of them. Macros just cut down on the "hunt and click". Personally I find clicking highly annoying.

[Mineria]

I'd really like to know why I can't have a /target something /use ability macro.

 

 

I wouldn't care if you limited the amount of lines you could have per macro (2-3 actions)

 

It just seems silly that I can't streamline my abilities. Things such as

 

/cast Weaken Mind

/cast Turbulance

 

I don't see how that is gamebreaking, especially when my keyboard can do it anyway.

 

Well I think that I can tell you why.

Because you can add a timer to a macro key, making it auto spam just that key, and have an ingame skill chain macro bound to it.

This will hold a rotation more strict than any pure keyboard created macro can, since an ingame macro usually just can skip to the next ability in the chain that isn't on a cooldown.

In the end it all depends on how such is implemented in game and how much time the developers want to spend to prevent heavy abuse of such, like that they allow everyone with the knowledge of setting it up with the correct combo (means just find it posted on a forum) having top dps by doing max 3 key presses per encounter, 1 for main rotation plus 2 modifiers for break offs (used upon proc and movement situations).

[Mineria]

Even with full macro support, your entire hotbar will be filled up and you'll use all of them. Macros just cut down on the "hunt and click". Personally I find clicking highly annoying.

 

With full macro support like WoW has it, and a keyboard or application that supports macro keys repeat options, that hotbar can be shaved down to absolute minimum, which leaves very few keys needed for dps as example.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Mineria

[DarkCarnage]

i peronal do not currenly use macros since ff11, never eneded them ebtween clicking and keybinds.

 

however if tehy do allowd macros i be find as long they have limited lines allowed and no wait commands.

maybe 3 lines tops so i could looke something like this:

 

/say hey <t> here a a pick me up.

/keybind 3 <t>

/say ok off you go.

 

keybind 3 be a healing skill , have to ahve the skilsl you want keybinded so it know whihc one you want maybe.

 

this way can only really make it so a skill targets someone pre determand or a target.

 

this help limit the chances of some game breaking "iwin" bottons being made if it left to open ended.

 

maybe allow a switch target so can target diffrent party meebers vs having to hunt them down with the mouse.

[Metallistic]

For the love of god what do you people have against actually having to learn to use your skills as the designers intended instead of placing them on all 5 easy to mash buttons?

This. Please don't dumb this game down just because you are afraid to press more buttons. I do not want this crap for PvP. It is simply not needed. Edited March 9, 2012 by Metallistic

[cipher_nemo]

For the love of god what do you people have against actually having to learn to use your skills as the designers intended instead of placing them on all 5 easy to mash buttons?

 

Who said macro users do that? I only use macros for a few things in the client:

 

1. I have my "R" key mapped to cast force armor/static barrier on me and my companion before battles.
   
2. I have my "T" key mapped to cast force armor/static barrier on my group before battles.
   
3. When I press "3" on my keyboard it presses both "3" and "Shift-3". I use this for a combat ability (3) that also is cast with a buff (Shift-3). I almost always want these two at the same time, so it's less button mashing. The buff has a minute cooldown, so it's not like it's casting two abilities all the time.
   

 

The two things, putting up shields and a buff that went with an ability, were the only two things I wanted to change. The rest of the abilities I prefer to trigger individually.

 

So yes, I use macros. No, I do not dumb down my combat into a few keystrokes for everything. And yes, my situation of minimal macros is probably more wide-spread than those who macro absolutely everything. Also, no, I don't imagine macros in the client to do what I'm doing. I'd imagine them to help with /slash commands, emotes, and other non-combat things.

 

This. Please don't dumb this game down just because you are afraid to press more buttons. I do not want this crap for PvP. It is simply not needed.

 

You already have that "crap" in PvP. People can make their own macros outside of the client. But it doesn't make them a better player. And it can't get around cooldowns and inductions that are still limiting how much DPS or healing someone is doing at any given moment.

Edited March 9, 2012 by cipher_nemo

[GreymaneAlpha]

This. Please don't dumb this game down just because you are afraid to press more buttons. I do not want this crap for PvP. It is simply not needed.

 

What exactly are you afraid of?

 

If it's a WoW-Style Macro system that allows one and only one action per click, WHAT IS THE DANGER?

 

This game needs macros because some abilities are extremely awkward to use dynamically. Take, for example, Guard. If I'm chasing an enemy that's targeting a friendly, and I want to guard that friendly target, I have to jump through a ton of hoops to perform this action. First, I have to assist my current target so that I can target the friendly. Then I have to press the Guard key. Then I have to hope that tab-target (which is abysmal) will target the enemy again, or I have to manually click-target them. This takes like 3 seconds sometimes, given how awful the targeting system is.

 

In WoW, I could just make a macro:

 

/cast [harm,@targettarget][help] Guard

 

If I was targeting an enemy when I pressed the macro, I would attempt to guard that enemy's target. If I was targeting a friendly, I would attempt to guard that friendly.

 

Now, in your ignorance, you might claim that this "trivializes" the game somehow. That would be absolutely false. What a macro like this does is allow you to maximize the use of your abilities, which *increases the skillcap in the game* because it makes player decision making more important. Right now, if I want to Guard someone, it takes multiple buttons and a lot of targeting luck. This means that the time it takes me to make a decision of whether or not to guard someone doesn't matter at all.

 

With the above macro, the decision to guard can almost instantly lead to a successful guard. I'm fighting my opponents and out-maneuvering them through decisions, not fighting the UI to actually make the actions I want. Without macros like that, playing this game is like trying to run in water: all of your actions are slow and awkward. You're not trying to run, you're trying to fight the water.

 

The same logic applies to [help] vs [harm] that allow one key to be mapped to both offensive and defensive abilities. It applies to [@mouseover] macros, that allow healers to cast heals tenths of seconds faster without that unneeded key click. It applies to [modifier, target=X] macros, that allow a single spell to (for example) cast on different targets (yourself, your focus target, your main target, etc) depending on whether you hit the button with alt, shift, ctrl, etc.

 

So I'll ask you the following: how are such macros bad for the game? Are they bad because you don't want to use macros, and thus don't want anyone else to use macros? Are they bad because it makes the game smoother to play since (with macro assistance) you can actually fight other players instead of fighting the uI? HOW IS THIS BAD?

Edited March 9, 2012 by GreymaneAlpha

[NeonHippy]

^^^^

 

I just read your first line -

 

If it's a WoW-Style Macro system that allows one and only one action per click, WHAT IS THE DANGER?

 

PS Swtor caters for SW fans and immersive story lines, not wow fan boys who get woodies from OP damage counts and cascading macro lines.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Notannos
rude

[jamews]

Macro's are on sale at Amazon.

 

Edit: In fact, there are software solutions that emulate the function of macro keys if the hardware prices exceeds your budget. My point is whether you find combat macros to be "lazy" or "cheating" -- it doesn't matter. They're already available and can't be patched out. Personally, I feel macros make the game less engaging and a bit boring - but it doesn't matter! They may as well add them to make the lives of non-combat macro users lives easier.

 

i may buy one of these just for this reason lol

 

Handy game mode switch

Never get dropped out of the game because you accidently pressed the Windows/Context menu keys. The game/desktop mode switch disables them instantly so your game won't be interrupted until you're ready to call it quits.