Bio says no to macros at Guild Summit.

[Mergon]

That's nearly impossible. You can't scan for something if you don't know what you're looking for. There is a ton of scripting software available today, many of which can compile your script into its own executable. Worse, anyone can create their own program and compile it themselves to do global macros. So there's nothing to distinguish this sort of program from other memory-resident programs.

 

Korean/Chinese gaming developers have been adding anti-cheat software (think DRM but with a more nasty root-like presence) to their MMOs for years. It still doesn't detect everything. Worse, it's third-party stuff that updates and bugs out all the time, crippling your game.

 

If you're asking Bioware to add something like this then you have absolutely no clue about the horrors of that cruddy software.

 

Bioware has handled cheating somewhat ok so far by banning the more blatant cheaters and patching the client to prevent exploits. More importantly, though, not all macros are considered cheating. In fact, the majority of macros out there do not exploit the game or automate combat. The majority of them are being used by honest gamers who enjoy their convenience. On top of that, there are a great number of disabled gamers who need macros to help them play PC games. Paralysis, partial paralysis, eyesight issues (eg: tunnel vision), and severe carpel tunnel syndrome all play a part. Please think outside of your own shoes before requesting something so blindly.

 

Her you're wrong. Anti-virus, spyware and rootkit detectors do it. it's just a matter of BW buying one of each type or macro-enabled keyboard or mouse and recording a signature from its associated driver software. They wouldn't necessarily even have to buy the hardware, just download the driver software from the appropriate website.

 

I know about DRM software. Aion used it for a while, not sure if they still do. It's a pain, but it is the only way to prevent people from using external macro-software to keep the game fair as all the anti-macro protestors want. The reason people will not agree with this proposal is that they don't want to lose the advantage they have by having macro capability.

[Mergon]

This. Please don't dumb this game down just because you are afraid to press more buttons. I do not want this crap for PvP. It is simply not needed.

 

It's already there. PvP's are the first to take advantage of macro-enabled hardware, thus most already have macros.

[fungihoujo]

But... I want to be able to use all my abilities by clicking 3 or less buttons

[lollermittens]

I would like to put my definition of what I believe macros would accomplish in this game in order to deviate from all the misinformation and confusion surrounding the issue. I will also post a definition regarding scripting since a lot of folks seem to think both terms are synonymous:

 

Macros: to streamline the automation of a repetitive activity which would result in the same expected outcome even if that activity were to be performed manually.

 

Script (from Wikipedia): program written for a software environment that automates the execution of tasks which could alternatively be executed one by one by a human operator.

 

A macro is not a third-party software or program. It would be a native functionality within the game to create a more unique and tailored experience for each player. In retrospect, those using current third-party software that comes along their keyboards/mice are indeed using scripting programs.

 

I was baffled at your decision not to include macros because: "We don't want to add another barrier to entry in terms of gameplay."

 

I understand that your business model is to cater to the majority of players who are casuals. But from the statistics you gave yesterday, it seems that most players aren't so casual: the average player plays 5 hours per day and almost playing a full 40 hours per week. That's almost comparable to a full-time job. And that's most of your "casual" audience.

 

From what I've gathered by reading threads which touch upon the issues of macros, a majority on these forums (I am aware of the fact that the forums also poorly represent the entire playerbase in general) have simply no idea what a macro does. For most players, they believe that a macro equates to inputing all your abilities onto one command line then spamming this over and over again until your rotation is completed. This isn't Rift; this isn't WoW (even though it has borrowed almost every idea from the-game-that-must-not-be-named). Macros, ultimately, increase the rate of efficiency at which a player can manage his abilities along with the better management of a player's resource (rage/force/heat/etc); it promotes creativity when it comes to certain builds and also promotes those "quality of life" improvements you're so fond of by making certain actions automated and easier to handle. Example: as a Marauder, I would love to include Retaliation (an ability which is off the GCD and procs if you parry/dodge a melee attack) in front of all my offensive abilities meaning that if I parry or defend an attack, my next Annihilate will cast Retaliation then Annihilate without having to manually use Retalation.

 

This accomplishes two things:

• The most obvious is that it frees up a space on an already limited number of hotbars, which are not being increased in 1.2 by the way
  
• The other is that it automates ability usage and lets me be more efficient in terms of ability/rage management
  

 

This is what most players who are against macros don't understand. They think of it as an unfair advantage even though macros are accessible to everyone including the vocal majority who are against them. There are many more reasons that are argued against the use for macros, but most of them are asinine and can be easily debunked. I won't waste my time going over those since, to me at least, being against macros is the same as being against the self-checkout at your local grocery store: it's there for everyone to use, it won't give you an advantage if you use it and nobody is forcing you to use it. You're just being inefficient and showing that you are scared of change by automating your checkout process. It's unfortunate that the majority of folks are risk-averse.

 

It also baffles me that nothing was mentioned regarding the the good chunk of players who would love to have macros. It's not because you include macros in the game that they are necessary to use. Look at WoW for example (since this game is a clone of WoW): the macros have always been present but most people didn't use them since the audience of WoW is even more casual than that of SW:TOR's. If anything, most people didn't since they downloaded add-ons to do the work for them.

 

Your decision to not include macros in this game is very, very disappointing. It is a staple functionality in many modern MMOs and your belief that it will add another layer of complexity to an already very simple game is unfounded and false. If what you claim is really true, that your average player spends 5 hours per day, they can take the 10 minutes it would take to read a tutorial about the use of macros. And again, if they don't want to use it, don't use them. It won't even change their gameplay one bit. Don't penalize the chunk of players who'd love to have macros because a vocal majority on the forums out of all places is scared of something they don't understand.

 

I had high hopes for this game. Most of what was introduced in 1.2 should have been included at launch hence reinforcing the belief that this game was rushed for the holidays -- don't have to be a genius to figure that out. But your decision to not include macros in the game will come back and bite you in the butt in the future once more skills and content is added onto the game. And I'll be right here, shaking my head and saying to myself... "I told you so."

 

TL;DR - Very disappointed at BW's decision not to include macros in the game to avoid adding "an extra layer of complexity onto the gameplay."

[Mergon]

What a fancy way of saying you are bad. Grats on that.

 

You are a star wars fan? Cool, I hear there is plenty of books and movies where you can get all the storylines you want.

 

This is a video game. This is an MMO. This is virtually a WOW clone (nothing wrong with that). What is wrong is giving gamers basically a WOW clone and then not providing them the tools to play it as effectively as possible. The players who want macros are probably already better then you anyways, so who cares, let them have the tools to play to their potential.

 

Macros and other features that this game is sorely lacking don't even effect your precious storylines anyways.

 

The devs already said it though, they aren't putting them in because they don't want the good players to be able to separate themselves even further from the bad ones, which macros would help do. So they are keeping this game dumbed down for everyone. Has nothing to do with star wars or storylines or dps meters or WOW fanboys or elitists or any other nonsense reasons you gave.

 

This game is so far from being a WoW-clone I have to wonder if you have ever played WoW.

[Rotton]

As posted, Hardware exists , as well as software to allow you to make any macro you could desire.

 

With all due respect to both sides of this issue, macros are not to cheat or use as a crutch.

 

They are to enhance your playtime, and thats what we are all here to do is have a good playtime.

[cipher_nemo]

Her you're wrong. Anti-virus, spyware and rootkit detectors do it. it's just a matter of BW buying one of each type or macro-enabled keyboard or mouse and recording a signature from its associated driver software.

 

I hope you realize that you can make macros via software without any need for hardware. You seem to be under the impression that macros are only done with hardware. And even without scripting software like AutoHotkey, I could write my own code in a day or two to do my own macros that send global keystrokes. There's no way any other software can detect that. If I send the commands directly to the Windows API, there's nothing that rootkit software can do to stop it. The anti-cheat software detects known offenders from pre-defined definitions. It can't catch everything, and it can't catch well made custom software.

 

They are to enhance your playtime, and thats what we are all here to do is have a good playtime.

 

QFT.

Edited March 10, 2012 by cipher_nemo

[Frostvein]

I cant help but feel like this no macros stance from Bioware is nothing more then a PR sham so that the uneducated who dont understand macros are (or think they do but dont) and refuse to learn can claim a moral victory.

 

I refuse to believe that Bioware is completely ignorant of the fact that third party hardware (such as the keyboard/mouse combo that Razer/EA/SWTOR is offering) allows players to create macros anyway, so their decision to exclude them from the while simultaneously offering and allowing them in peripherals is hypocritical at best and ridiculous at worst.

[lollermittens]

This game is so far from being a WoW-clone I have to wonder if you have ever played WoW.

 

This claim makes me wonder if you ever have played WoW...

 

The developers themselves said they used WoW as a model for many design elements in this game.

 

This is a WoW clone. Plain and simple. This is not even arguable.

[Mergon]

i cant help but feel like this no macros stance from bioware is nothing more then a pr sham so that the uneducated who dont understand macros are (or think they do but dont) and refuse to learn can claim a moral victory.

 

I refuse to believe that bioware is completely ignorant of the fact that third party hardware (such as the keyboard/mouse combo that razer/ea/swtor is offering) allows players to create macros anyway, so their decision to exclude them from the while simultaneously offering and allowing them in peripherals is hypocritical at best and ridiculous at worst.

 

/qft

+1

[ferroz]

Actually the /castsequence command in WOW macros allow you to use one keybind to cast a rotation of abilities.

No, it doesn't actually; if something in your cast sequence is on cooldown, it often breaks. You also can't spam the button...that breaks it as well. Nor do any of the various class "rotations" work that way, since they're all priority based now (due to procs usually)

 

So, you can't have 1 button that you spam that produces a perfect dps rotation... you can do a cast sequence, which has uses (casting buffs, for example), but that's a Loooong way from what's being claimed.

 

in RIFT, on the other hand, you can indeed have a 1 button macro that executes multiple abilities based on priority... cleric dps, for example, works really well with that (or did when I last played).

 

An example of using this: on my hunter in WoW I had a /castsequence macro to cast hunter's mark, serpent sting, and then two steady shots.

that's not a dps rotation.

 

automation, sure, but it's pretty from from a dps rotation

 

As some have said already, macro abuse was in effect in WoW but that was a LONG TIME AGO. Blizzard broke that system before the first expansion was released (six years ago).

yeah, all of the actual abusive stuff was fixed during vanilla. Edited March 10, 2012 by ferroz

[ferroz]

This game is so far from being a WoW-clone I have to wonder if you have ever played WoW.

other than the starwars part, and the stuff that they're still working on implementing (combat logs, lfg tool, etc) the differences are pretty superficial.

[Mergon]

This claim makes me wonder if you ever have played WoW...

 

The developers themselves said they used WoW as a model for many design elements in this game.

 

This is a WoW clone. Plain and simple. This is not even arguable.

 

I played WoW since the original WoW beta. I had, still have, two inactive accounts with a total of 9 x L85, 5 L70+ and a few lower levels.

 

I left WoW in March 2011 in protest of RealID and the way they were butchering the game in favor of PvP.

 

It's gotten to the point that I refuse to buy any game Blizzard is associated with. I continue to recieve 7 day renewal offers and was sent beta invites for Starcraft II and Diablo III. I will NEVER touch a Blizzard product again.

 

Kung Fu Panda's / / / Give me a break. Blizzard's WoW dev's have completely lost their minds.

[ferroz]

Kung Fu Panda's / / / Give me a break. Blizzard's WoW dev's have completely lost their minds.

you know the pandarens have been in the Warcraft lore for quite a while...

[Darnu]

I'm at work so I can't post a screen but let me go on for you:

 

1 Hammershot

2 Energy shot (the one with +1 ammo)

3 Full Auto

4 High Impact Bolt

Q Sticky Grenade

E Energy Shot (the lightning thing with debuff)

R Stockstrike

F Cryogren

V Charge

C Hook

shift+F Mortars

shift+E Ion Cannon

T AoE Explosion Thing (cant remember name)

Middle Mouse Interrupt

shift+Thumb-Mouse 1 Guard

shift+Thumb-Mouse 2 Ammo Recharege

Thumb-Mouse 1 Taunt

Thumb-Mouse 2 AoE Taun

Def Relics + Defensive Buffs F1-F4

Off Relic + Buff shift1 / shift2

 

oh edit: shift+c is the grenade shot that knocks back weak targets (for aoe interrupt in WZ)

 

edit 2: shift+middle mouse is aoe stun, forgot this aswell

 

Hm, not sure if I forgot something out of my mind.. But yeah, thats it.

 

So yes I all play this by hand and I still manage in PvE to charge 1 enemy, taunt the 2nd and hook the 3rd as it is SIMPLE if you have HANDS.

 

Just curious, but how have you done this? For the life of me I can't bind shift/ctrl or alt+any key be it number, letter or mouse button. Is this the default UI or a different peripheral or program? I'm trying it with the default and it won't register them at all

[Urkanan]

This game is so far from being a WoW-clone I have to wonder if you have ever played WoW.

 

I did play WoW for long, and I'd say this game is most certainly at least a twin sibling.

 

 

Actually the /castsequence command in WOW macros allow you to use one keybind to cast a rotation of abilities.

 

In all honesty I dont get how some people (maybe not you) could consider even this an issue. Does it really take more skill to open you fights by always pressing 1, 2, 3, 3 than pressing 1 four times and being able to bind other stuff to 2 and 3?

[KrelosDarksky]

As posted, Hardware exists , as well as software to allow you to make any macro you could desire.

 

With all due respect to both sides of this issue, macros are not to cheat or use as a crutch.

 

They are to enhance your playtime, and thats what we are all here to do is have a good playtime.

 

I'd have to disagree here.

 

History shows that macros are really nothing more than a crutch and a means to enable people to leave their characters 'playing' the game AFK.

 

No matter how you spin it ... macros have hurt MMO gameplay a TON more than they have helped.

[Urkanan]

Example: as a Marauder, I would love to include Retaliation (an ability which is off the GCD and procs if you parry/dodge a melee attack) in front of all my offensive abilities meaning that if I parry or defend an attack, my next Annihilate will cast Retaliation then Annihilate without having to manually use Retalation.

 

While I wholeheartedly support your argument about macros, in my opinion you chose the one thing that they shouldn't be doing. By allowing an off-the-GCD reactive abilitiy to be buried into a macro the way you expose, you kill the flavor and purpose of the ability itself. May as well just turn it into a pasive that deals damage whenever you parry or defend...

 

I think your heart is in the right place, but I am afraid you are terribly off track with this particular function of a macro, as what you did is in fact dumb down and automate the Retaliation ability.

 

macros should help with things the current UI has us jumping through hoops for: bad targetting, unreadable frames/nameplates, awful combat sync (combat text/animation/sound/keystroke sync has impoved but is far away from being even "fine")

 

Bypassing our ability to keep track of a proc by integrating the response into a "in case it triggers" macro is bad macro system design imo.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Urkanan

[Urkanan]

 

History shows that macros are really nothing more than a crutch and a means to enable people to leave their characters 'playing' the game AFK.

 

 

Again untrue for the current WoW macro system (again, in place for years now), which is what the vast majority of those in favor of macros are demanding.

 

NAY SAYERS GO AWAY NOW

Edited March 10, 2012 by Urkanan

[Fentz]

so what's a combat macro?

 

is

 

/use [dps stance] "some ability that is useless when tanking"

/use [tank stance] GUARD

 

or just an easy one

 

/use [friendly] GUARD

/use [enemy] "some damage ability"

 

combat macros? cuz those don't make combat easier just free's up some space on the action bars

 

 

the 2 macros above doesn't give any unfair advantage etc

 

neither does a macro like:

 

/use Force Charge

/use "the melee slow sentinels have"

 

-

it's not like you'd just be spamming it, you 100% of the time wouldn't even click it twice in a row since people get rooted by the charge, just free's up some space.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Fentz

[Shinavast]

Disappointing. I like macro's. Simplifies my life.

 

I don't like casting sequence macro systems that reduce the game to smashing 1-2 buttons, but there are sometimes things that would be nice to be able to combine together.

 

 

Also the "score one for the good guys" response is ridiculous. People that want macros / combat logs / add-ons / (thing that you don't want) aren't "the bad guys".

 

They are people that want to play the game in a different manner than you do. Doesn't make you right or them wrong, or them right and you wrong.

 

It means that you both want to play differently.

 

 

What bioware should be doing is enabling both groups to do as they wish.

 

But, ya know, with such a polished game, they can afford to further alienate people by small increments. Now excuse me, i'm off to go see if Defending the Shipment is working today, or if the bad coding that allows ******s to ruin it for others is still there.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Shinavast

[Chewpaco]

Actually the /castsequence command in WOW macros allow you to use one keybind to cast a rotation of abilities. it still requires you to have the correct target targeted (which can be set in the macro to targetoftarget or focustarget, but those functions do not always work correctly so I found it is better not to use them) and you must press the one key each time you want the rotation to progress, but it does exist.

 

An example of using this: on my hunter in WoW I had a /castsequence macro to cast hunter's mark, serpent sting, and then two steady shots. I had to press that key four times, but it was a good fight starting macro. I also had a macro key right next to that one to do steady shot and non-GCD abilities. However after that you are correct that currently almost all class and specs use a priority system rather than a rotation.

 

However, the basis of this "subthread" is 100% inaccurate. As some have said already, macro abuse was in effect in WoW but that was a LONG TIME AGO. Blizzard broke that system before the first expansion was released (six years ago).

 

And your cast sequence macro, leaves very little room for human error. I don't care if it is not "automation" meaning you still have to press a button 4 times for every ability to fire off.

 

YOU PRESS THE SAME BUTTON! There is NO ROOM FOR ERROR when you hover your ring finger over the number 1 nd your middle finger over the number 2, and have everything keybound to those 2 buttons.

 

Where do you think you have a better chance of making a mistake, or have a better chance of screwing something up?

 

when you press: 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2

when you press: 1 2 5 3 2 7 8 6

 

Its like playing with an original Nintendo Controller which had an A and B button vs Playing with an Xbox controller - which has 2 ******s, 8 buttons, 2 triggers.

 

Which do you think is more complex?

 

If I could play an X box with a Nintendo controller - pre script ideal conditions, what ifs, and focus targets target all into 2 buttons, you think it would make games less complicated, and easier to play? Of course it makes it easier.

 

Stop with the quality of life , carpal tunnel excuses also- for anyone that wants to chime in with that.

 

You see it as a quality of life improvement, because your performance drastically increases with the use of macros - so obviously that is a better quality of life.

[Ngamok]

It was pretty much said that there will be no macros anytime soon if ever at the guild summit. It seems part of the Dev team hates macros and does not want them in game.

 

But, they did say there will be some things in game that will help healers and such. What that means who knows they did not explain it very well.

Which i think this is a good thing.

 

Because I could use a 1 button macro in RIFT and have several macros in WoW that pretty much dumbed the game down.

[Darnu]

I really don't understand why castsequence macros have taken up so much of this thread and even more bizzarely so many people have referenced wow of all games. No-one still uses them anymore. Why? Because things proc making your rotation more random. Dots etc need to be monitored. Some abilities can be used while moving and others can't. Take ret paladins. At the moment they essentially have 4 rotations each for different situations and even then they're kind of still a bit random. The only people pressing 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 with a 2 thrown in every now and then are arcane mages and the only people still using castsequence macros are multi-boxers and most conditionals have been removed. In very few boss fights is macro-ing an instant cast non-GCD ability or item an advantage because downing a boss means getting burn phases exactly right so CD use is pretty precise.

[Chewpaco]

Again untrue for the current WoW macro system (again, in place for years now), which is what the vast majority of those in favor of macros are demanding.

 

NAY SAYERS GO AWAY NOW

 

Hate to say it, but if you are demanding the same system as WoW, why not just go play WoW?

 

People have already called this game a WoW clone. Now you want to make it even more like WoW by enabling a gimp feature like macros?

 

Blizzard still has plenty of servers up. Go macro your way to greatness there.

 

Me? I choose decision making, switching targets, manual rotations - where I KEEP THE TICKING CLOCK IN MY HEAD.

 

vs.

 

Bright Flashing lights - with big bold print warning me of danger. 2 or 3 button spam fests.

Custom UI's which make it virtually IMPOSSIBLE for me to mis-time my DoT rotations, virtually IMPOSSIBLE for me to miss a detrimental effect that can be dispelled off of a teammate.

 

I choose a game that leaves more room for human error, vs a game that allows you to macro most of the human error element out.