V/O with Cinematics does not mean good story.

[KurleyKilla]

I will preface all this by saying... this is not a troll... this is just me expressing a thought. Please only respond if you actually read this post in it's entirety.

 

 

I was reading a discussion on the internet on "gameplay vs story"

 

It caught my interest partly because of all the debate I have seen on SWTOR about the importance of "story"

 

I am of the opinion that the class story's really aren't all that deep or engaging (depending of course on what class you choose). .

 

The planet side quests on the other hand, Are the same for everyone... and get extremely old.

 

That being said... I do love a good story. That is not the issue here.

 

One comment that really hit home with me was:

 

" The thing about story vs gameplay is that most people (including developers) think of it in terms of story VS gameplay, rather then having them compliment each other. You're either playing the game or watching the story develop via cutscenes or choose-your-own dialogue sections that have no effect on the overall plot. Cinematics in games are a ***********y exercise on the part of the designer, and a waste of gamings potential as a story telling medium"

 

How do you guys feel about the extensive use of Cinematics to tell SWTOR's story?

 

Is that truly the way to go for telling a story, moving forward in the MMO space?

 

Edit: Also how would you compare the overall quality of these cutscenes compared to what you have experienced previously. (Facial animations, Body movement animations, special effects, coolness factor etc etc)

Edited March 3, 2012 by KurleyKilla

[OmegaMayhem]

I love the cinematics. Much better than just a block of text with no feeling or drama.

[KurleyKilla]

I love the cinematics. Much better than just a block of text with no feeling or drama.

 

I don't want to belittle cinematics....

 

But I grew up thinking they were reserved for important moments. Diablo II only has a handful, for instance, and they serve so much emphasis because they are so few.

 

Same with Warcraft III: cinematics were rare but so epic, though the rest of the game had dialogue in it (and what a story that was ! Possibly one of my favourite, ever). But games like Call of Duty, Unchartered, etc. try to reverse the process: to force a sense of constant grandeur and epicness because it's a set-piece, because it's a cinematic, and that's entirely flawed logic, since it was their rarity and quality that gave them those qualities.

[Claymaniac]

I love cutscenes. The trend of some games lately having their story elements play out in the background while you are actively controlling your character actually bothers me a bit. I am always worried that I'll miss some key bits of story. Probably why I don't enjoy games like Half Life or Crysis as much.

 

Then again, I'm someone who loved the Xenosaga series and love the MGS series, so cutscenes don't bother me.

 

As for quality of story, thats a subjective matter, every person will have a different opinion. What I really like about Bioware, is they really emphasize the importance of story in video games in general. Which imo, not enough companies do so.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Claymaniac

[Korghal]

I love cutscenes, tho i agree with the OP. Some of these conversations need some polishing, some really dont make sense and some are just abit too chaotic to be called anything close to good.

[scootshoot]

As another poster stated, story = subjective, to each their own.

 

I think Harry Potter story books blow but millions upon millions think otherwise.

 

I think Star Wars story books blow but I wager others disagree.

 

I think Stephen King books are "okay" but I wager many think his material is the bomb

[Deewe]

Thing is the writing in TOR isn't that great, nor bad either.

 

They should have hired a greater variety of writers and not copy paste the same type of writing skills.

 

First the team should have been lead by a great writer, someone who had his share of success for a few dozens of years. You know the kind of person that you can't stop admiring for his writing skills and success.

 

Then this very person should have build the team with people from round the world varying in age and type of writing.

 

At a point they would have had all the dialog reviewed by people versed in writing good movie scripts, not novelist or video games writers.

 

Finally the cut scene should have been written by movie scripts experts and reviewed by a movie director. Even better they should have hired actors to play some of the scene, film them and analyze their movement their body language, etc etc.

 

Would have they done that they would have truly delivered.

 

(edit) I'll just take one simple example: killing the Jedi at the end of the battle in the Jedi temple was a bad take. They should have left an open door, like the Sith force pushed the Jedi through a balcony/opening not seeing nor feeling if he died or not.

 

Maybe he died, maybe he didn't but there was still hope and it would have lead to many stories around him/or his twin brother acting like him or his now sentient droid working on a revenge. Thing is the Sith would have half won that one still being annoyed by not knowing. Huge difference!

Edited March 3, 2012 by Deewe

[Paganini]

Well it's hard to say how I reacted towards the story since there's such a wide variety. For instance I loved my Consular's story but was utterly bored by my Inquisitor's, maybe that's because I played the inquisitor afterwards but I'm not sure.

[Darka]

There is a fine line between being part of a great story and watching one

[Deewe]

There is a fine line between being part of a great story and watching one

Geez Darka, what's your trick to always pinpoint to the most important detail in one short and sexy sentence!

[ExBrillig]

Thing is the writing in TOR isn't that great, nor bad either.

 

They should have hired a greater variety of writers and not copy paste the same type of writing skills.

 

First the team should have been lead by a great writer, someone who had his share of success for a few dozens of years. You know the kind of person that you can't stop admiring for his writing skills and success.

 

I know this sounds good, but it's just not realistic. For starters, you won't even be able to hire the team lead. All the best writers are good at writing solo, they don't know anything about writing in a team.

 

Separately, regerding the central thesis of the thread, I think TOR has very good story elements. It's not going to be regarded as a work of great literature, but that's not a fair comparison - it needs to be compared against other entertainment writing. Compare TOR against other video games, movies, TV, and I think TOR does pretty well.

[scootshoot]

My Smuggler story has been pretty bad azz in a good way. So much so I have decided to make her my main just to see the ending!

[Deewe]

I know this sounds good, but it's just not realistic. For starters, you won't even be able to hire the team lead. All the best writers are good at writing solo, they don't know anything about writing in a team.

 

Separately, regerding the central thesis of the thread, I think TOR has very good story elements. It's not going to be regarded as a work of great literature, but that's not a fair comparison - it needs to be compared against other entertainment writing. Compare TOR against other video games, movies, TV, and I think TOR does pretty well.

Against most good video game TOR is doing well, really well.

 

Against good movies it's just fair. The dialog are average. The character's gesture half backed. The custcene scripts uninspired. The camera angle too often poor.

 

I'm not saying it's easy to do all the above well. That's another story

Edited March 3, 2012 by Deewe

[KurleyKilla]

I know this sounds good, but it's just not realistic. For starters, you won't even be able to hire the team lead. All the best writers are good at writing solo, they don't know anything about writing in a team.

 

Separately, regerding the central thesis of the thread, I think TOR has very good story elements. It's not going to be regarded as a work of great literature, but that's not a fair comparison - it needs to be compared against other entertainment writing. Compare TOR against other video games, movies, TV, and I think TOR does pretty well.

 

Yea the thing is, I am only comparing it to Video Games and it really doesn't do that well >_<

 

Games I have played that produced an emotional effect in me, or made me remember the story long term include:

 

Witcher 2

Deus Ex Human Revolution

Diablo 1 and 2

Starcraft had an engaging story... in a genre not known for such things.

Portal 1 and 2 although short, had me living the story the entire time.

Half-life 2

Legend of dragoon

Final Fantasy 7-8-9

Kingdom hearts 1

 

I could go on and on. And while granted, all these games are from a different genre.

 

SWTOR is presented in such a way that it is more comparable to a regular RPG experience then any other MMO IMO.

 

That is the main thing for me... When I put it next some of the greatest story experiences I have had in gaming it simply pales in comparison. Even though by all accounts, story was the main focus of SWTOR.

Edited March 3, 2012 by KurleyKilla

[Coiffio]

A cinematic is a tool like anything else. It's only as good as the person wielding it. if they ham fist cinematics into a game, it can feel tedious and drawn out, taking you out of the gameplay. TOR manages to do a good job with their cutscenes, they're entertaining and they (in class stories anyway) move things forward. However this has come at the expense of gameplay for me. Once I exit a good class quest and then have to do all the little side quests, watching the cutscenes and dialogue just grows very monotonous, except in a few cases where the exchange is actually witty or amusing.

[ExBrillig]

Witcher 2

Deus Ex Human Revolution

Diablo 1 and 2

Starcraft had an engaging story... in a genre not known for such things.

Portal 1 and 2 although short, had me living the story the entire time.

Half-life 2

Legend of dragoon

Final Fantasy 7-8-9

Kingdom hearts 1

 

This basically proves that there's no accounting for taste. I think TOR is superior to the first two, but at least Witcher and Deus Ex are in the ballpark. The next four, I found to be complete bores story-wise. Never played the last three, so I can't say about those.

 

Basically, I find story in TOR far superior to anything on your list that I've played.

[KurleyKilla]

This basically proves that there's no accounting for taste. I think TOR is superior to the first two, but at least Witcher and Deus Ex are in the ballpark. The next four, I found to be complete bores story-wise. Never played the last three, so I can't say about those.

 

Basically, I find story in TOR far superior to anything on your list that I've played.

 

You are entitled to your opinion although.

 

Those four titles are critically acclaimed as groundbreaking In many respects by the majority of people on the planet.

 

Diablo 1 and 2 in particular even after being released so many years ago are played and fawned over by many.. actually most gamers to this day. For Diablo 1 Most can recall the first time they encountered "The butcher" and even hear his voice in there head at the mention of his name lol

 

Diablo 2 speaks for itself.

 

Portal started out as just a mod... and was so well liked by MANY MANY people that Valve grabbed the creator and made Portal 2... Many liked just how a part of the story they felt during this game.

 

But like you said there is no accounting for taste.

 

P.S. please do yourself a favor and at least play Legend of Dragoon. It is from the playstation 1 era and will still knock your socks off.

Edited March 4, 2012 by KurleyKilla

[Claymaniac]

Legend of Dragoon was awesome. I still keep wishing for a sequel.

[KurleyKilla]

Legend of Dragoon was awesome. I still keep wishing for a sequel.

 

You, me, and anyone else who played it man.

 

NOSTALGIA OVERDOSE

Edited March 4, 2012 by KurleyKilla

[ExBrillig]

You are entitled to your opinion although.

 

Those four titles are critically acclaimed as groundbreaking In many respects by the majority of people on the planet.

 

Diablo 1 and 2 in particular even after being released so many years ago are played and fawned over by many.. actually most gamers to this day. For Diablo 1 Most can recall the first time they encountered "The butcher" and even hear his voice in there head at the mention of his name lol

 

Diablo 2 speaks for itself.

 

Let's talk about Diablo 1 & 2 - they were acclaimed as groundbreaking but not for their story. Their story was about as unoriginal as possible. And being able to remember the Butcher, in my opinion, has nothing to do about story.

 

So I think we fundamentally agree what story is.

[KurleyKilla]

Let's talk about Diablo 1 & 2 - they were acclaimed as groundbreaking but not for their story. Their story was about as unoriginal as possible. And being able to remember the Butcher, in my opinion, has nothing to do about story.

 

So I think we fundamentally agree what story is.

 

You think the story of diablo 1 and 2.... is as "unoriginal as possible"... compared to... SWTOR?

 

Remembering the Butcher has everything to do with the story. Most people who played that game where completely immersed in the universe. That has everything to do with the story.

 

You encounter an injured man outside the church... he tells of a monster... with a giant cleaver.. you get this feeling of dread... as you travel through the depths of the dungeon you have it in the back of your head that somewhere... there is "the butcher". You open the door to his room... not knowing that's where he is and hear "AHHHH FRESH MEAT" then you poo your pants.... all of that is a result of the awesome story telling.

 

Every trip into the dungeon like most RPG's had a purpose or story behind it. But few other games had you really feeling that gothic feel. That sense of dread as you uncovered tombs and books that explained backstories to all the things going on and gave you hints of what was to come.

 

You are seriously the first person I have ever met who dislikes The story/Lore of the diablo series.

 

All the NPC's in Diablo 1 having Voice overs was absolutely groundbreaking... as well as many other things they did.

 

Why is it that me and everyone else who played that game can name almost..actually EVERY NPC in the town of tristram?

 

It's all part of the story and the universe that they successfully wrapped most people up in.

 

This actually goes back to my original post. Story and gameplay should compliment one another and not be considered completely separate entities.

Edited March 4, 2012 by KurleyKilla

[Cormey]

I will preface all this by saying... this is not a troll... this is just me expressing a thought. Please only respond if you actually read this post in it's entirety.

 

 

I was reading a discussion on the internet on "gameplay vs story"

 

It caught my interest partly because of all the debate I have seen on SWTOR about the importance of "story"

 

I am of the opinion that the class story's really aren't all that deep or engaging (depending of course on what class you choose). .

 

The planet side quests on the other hand, Are the same for everyone... and get extremely old.

 

That being said... I do love a good story. That is not the issue here.

 

One comment that really hit home with me was:

 

" The thing about story vs gameplay is that most people (including developers) think of it in terms of story VS gameplay, rather then having them compliment each other. You're either playing the game or watching the story develop via cutscenes or choose-your-own dialogue sections that have no effect on the overall plot. Cinematics in games are a ***********y exercise on the part of the designer, and a waste of gamings potential as a story telling medium"

 

How do you guys feel about the extensive use of Cinematics to tell SWTOR's story?

 

Is that truly the way to go for telling a story, moving forward in the MMO space?

 

Edit: Also how would you compare the overall quality of these cutscenes compared to what you have experienced previously. (Facial animations, Body movement animations, special effects, coolness factor etc etc)

 

I for one completely disagree with the person you quoted. I think Bioware are the first MMOG devs who've made story a part of the gameplay.

 

Up until now quests have been presented to us as such:

"Monologue"

Yes/No

 

To me, that's gameplay vs story. The story isn't presented to us in an interactive fashion, we silently read the text (or we don't) and we never interact with it in any meaningful way. We can't have our characters ask further questions, we can't have our characters state how they feel about what's going on.

 

Bioware have allowed us to be a part of the story by adding gameplay elements to it. We can choose how to respond, these choices effect what we do in the mission to a certain extent. Now, so far it's only shallow changes but it's definately a step in the right direction of getting away from gameplay vs story.

 

Rather than shying away from this as i've read others want (going back to gameplay vs story) i think bioware really should embrace and expand on this, giving us more meaningful choices that have larger repurcussions down the line for that story arc.

 

 

Moving on to your edit, i've finally gotten around to playing L.A. Noire and all i can say is wow, no game comes close to that in terms of facial animations. even the Prerendered game/rep/imp cinematics look like wierd plastic talking dolls by comparison. It's pretty much ruined any awe i have for talking cinematics in other games.

 

I'd like to see a bit more action going on in the cutscenes, some more movement of both the characters and the camera. Right now it's a lot like the 'slowly walking' and 'sitting down' boring scenes in the prequal trilogy.

[TyHeaton]

You think the story of diablo 1 and 2.... is as "unoriginal as possible"... compared to... SWTOR?

 

Remembering the Butcher has everything to do with the story. Most people who played that game where completely immersed in the universe. That has everything to do with the story.

 

You encounter an injured man outside the church... he tells of a monster... with a giant cleaver.. you get this feeling of dread... as you travel through the depths of the dungeon you have it in the back of your head that somewhere... there is "the butcher". You open the door to his room... not knowing that's where he is and hear "AHHHH FRESH MEAT" then you poo your pants.... all of that is a result of the awesome story telling.

 

Every trip into the dungeon like most RPG's had a purpose or story behind it. But few other games had you really feeling that gothic feel. That sense of dread as you uncovered tombs and books that explained backstories to all the things going on and gave you hints of what was to come.

 

You are seriously the first person I have ever met who dislikes The story/Lore of the diablo series.

 

All the NPC's in Diablo 1 having Voice overs was absolutely groundbreaking... as well as many other things they did.

 

Why is it that me and everyone else who played that game can name almost..actually EVERY NPC in the town of tristram?

 

It's all part of the story and the universe that they successfully wrapped most people up in.

 

This actually goes back to my original post. Story and gameplay should compliment one another and not be considered completely separate entities.

 

Most people who played Diablo 2 were immersed in grinding for useless items, not the "epic story". Stop acting like your opinion is the only valid one.

[JediKier]

First off let me say I am not agreeing with, nor disagreeing with, anything said here.

 

One thing I think they should start adding in future xpacs/updates is the ability to have a completely different class story.

 

Maybe for jedi or sith characters you choose a different master, and your story will be rendered differently, greatly improving the replayability of each class (dont get me wrong I think the replayability in this game is stellar, i have 13 characters; two JKs, 2 SIs, 2 SWs, 2 BHs, 2 JCs, and one of everything else, but this would make me reroll a third and possibly fourth of each class).

 

Another thing they could do is make these alternate storylines go through different planets so that you dont have to do the same side quests over and over again (I find them really boring the 3rd or 4th time), and again improving replayability.

 

Edit: Also NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER make the JK class say "It was both a duty and an honor" again. Also when the chat indicator says "May the Force be with you" make my character actually say that instead of crap like "Good luck" Also I love some of the later companions lines. My fave is Seargant Rusk saying "Another succesful suicide mission."

Edited March 4, 2012 by JediKier

[Vorphalack]

I'm not convinced the forced dialogue cutscenes are a bad medium in principal. A developer could theoretically animate some superb set peices in the game engine, giving the viewer a more directed and engaging experiance compared to more contemporay methods.

 

However, SWTOR came up short on delivery; way too much bland writing, inanimate NPC characters, mostly weak voice acting (dont even get me started on the canned alien / driod voices), implausible / out of character player responses, and overall the dialogues were just far too frequent. It felt like they had their ''thing'' for this game. This ''thing'' was fully voice acted dialogue, and they were going to use it at every oppertunity reguardless of context or quality. Apart from some bits of Star Wars lore that I picked up on the way to 50, my brain has vented almost all of the leveling experiance from my memory.

 

If they had held back on the quantity, and simply focused on making some extremly high quailty class quest dialogue content with some genuine choice in conversations, they could have made something memorable. As it stands the game story feels bland accross the board, what a waste of potential.