What has BioWare & TOR done to push the genre forward?

[Icebaron]

Lol youre being more than tad disingenuous here buddy. No MMO has done VO like swtor has, they have taken it to a whole new level, NO MMO has done personal story and class quests like SWTOR has, they took it to a whole new level, no MMO has done crafting how SWTOR has they took it to a whole new level, NO MMO has done companions like SWTOR has. And I played Lock from 1-85, been one since Vanilla. Locks were NEVER meant to be ranged tanks, we have a tanking companion for solo content ONLY. Go ahead and try to tank any current dungeons as a lock, watch how fast you die lol. SWTOR has ranged tanks as an ACTUAL built in supported play style, the same with light armor tanks. Sure rogues could at one point dodge tank, but not anymore and not for years. Get over your hate and loot at the truth. This game has built on and improved a lot of mechanics in ways that no other game has even attempted.

 

The word was innovation, I took it to mean new ideas, not improved ideas. But yes, they did expand on those ideas and push the genre in those directions.

[maxolof]

I think Bioware has advanced questing in MMO's. Personally I don't think people will accept quest texts and not thought put into questing anymore. I honestly think people will want a reason for questing rather than just doing it to level.

 

Case and point is TERA. A new MMO coming out (well newish) and the number one complaint i've heard is that the questing is boring. I feel that TOR made questing fun.

 

Again just my opinion.

 

VO did not fix that for me. I space bar through all the world arc stuff. Its soooo boring and shallow. I hate listening to it, especially the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th time through. I detest leveling in this game.

[Dzikun]

Group dialog is the only real innovation in this game i've seen so far and never seen before in other mmos or rpgs. The others were used here and there before. No real genre pusher but its new...

[RAndrews]

VO did not fix that for me. I space bar through all the world arc stuff. Its soooo boring and shallow. I hate listening to it, especially the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th time through. I detest leveling in this game.

 

In what game did you not detest leveling then?

[KahnyaGnorc]

Someone mentioned a modern version of UO would be pushing the genre backwards, but that's crazy talk. You could do WAY more stuff in UO than you can any modern MMO's. Like, build a house, plant a garden, rob someone blind, sail a boat, etc.

 

It was a sandbox. SWTOR is the opposite of that design. Instead of having a bunch of "make your own fun" stuff to do in a simulated world, you have a very set linear "experience" that they laid out for you, in a dead world with static quest dispensers that loiter around waiting to give you your "cinematic experience" to go kill mobs that walk around in a 25M area waiting on player #355 to come along and kill them.

 

I prefer the sandbox model, but sadly the only well produced sandbox game in the last several years has been Eve. While greatly entertaining Eve is too hardcore and time consuming for my available game time.

 

Is SWTOR's leveling pretty fun? Yeah, it is; but the fun is very low grade and not at all immersive compared to what I get out of even a single player game that's a sandbox like Skyrim.

 

"Going Backwards" is going to a previous state. UO is a previous state; therefore, it is going backwards to be like UO. You prefer the sandbox style; I do not. (I played SWG for a short time, didn't have fun with it, so stopped playing) Just because you prefer the sandbox style doesn't make it superior. YOU may find a sandbox game more immersive, but I don't. Considering the comparative successes of the two paradigms of MMOs, I'd say more people are on my side of this opinion than yours.

 

That being said, I hope you find a sandbox game that fits your preferences.

[KahnyaGnorc]

The word was innovation, I took it to mean new ideas, not improved ideas. But yes, they did expand on those ideas and push the genre in those directions.

 

Invention is new ideas.

 

Innovation is using ideas in new ways.

 

Well, roughly speaking.

[Kalfear]

Fill in the blank.

 

Should we expect a new game to push the genre forward?

 

Is it ok if a new game does not push the genre forward?

 

While TOR itself has failed in mine and many others eyes as a MMORPG, that doesnt change the fact that a number of concepts will be staples of the MMORPG genre going forward.

 

Completely voice acted. EA RPG divison has pushed the limits of what can be done with this and the old stand by of limited voice and heavy text simply will no longer cut it.

 

Companions. EA RPG division has only scratched the surface of this concept (which is kinda sad as I expected them to take it so much farther then they did). Gone are the days of Pets. Future MMORPGs will have to embrace companions as a intrigate part of any character storyline.

 

Crew Skills. While the die hard elitists will never be satisfied with out a full on SWG crafting experience, truth of matter is the vast vast vast majority of players are not looking for the SWG crafting experience. I think TOR again scratchs the surface of whats to come but make no mistake, TOR Crew Skill concepts will be what others build out on. TOR Crew Skills are barely passable as crafting, but their idea and concept is a home run to be sure.

 

Personal storylines, World Arcs, side missions. While again not really a new concept its a enhanced concept that has gone over very well and futire developers will build on what EA RPG Division did here to hopefully full effect and reward.

 

So there are just afew things TOR and EA RPG Division have done to push the genre forward.

 

Facts are TOR missed the mark and will probably be veiwed as yet another major flop of the Star Wars franchise and might actually kill any future Star Wars MMORPG projects (being 2 for 2 in the flop catagory. Yeah yeah, I knopw i know, fabois need not freak out, I know you and your 3 friends disagree). The sad part is TOR is sooooo close to flipping to massive smash hit but its developers clearly just couldnt see the bigger picture.

 

A fine tune here, a rework there, and ALLOT of additional content to bring viable Interactive and social play mechanics and content to TOR and this game becomes the smash hit most thought it would be.

 

But EA RPG Division most definately pushed the genre forward conceptually.

 

I personally will not even look at a AAA MMORPG now thats not 100% fully voiced and offering multiple storylines arcs through out my journey. With out those, I wont even give a title the light of day now. The days of reading never ending text discriptions for quests and enviroment and what not are well over with.

 

The days of simplistic uncontrolable pets are over with. I now demand fully fleshed out companions with their own personalities and speech paterns and the ability to control their tactical actions in combat (TOR only scratchs the surface on that part)

 

The days of running stupid macro scripts while asleep so your character crafts is over. TOR crew Skills have presented a new and exciting concept for crafting. Just now someone needs to expand it so its a viable crafting system and not the gimme TOR version is.

 

But none of this matters one but until someone has the guts and brains enough to stop dumbing the level arc and difficulty down and once again demands players actually THINK and plan rather then 3 button mash while watching TV. As WOW and everything since WOW have presented to us.

[KurleyKilla]

I've seen large parties (as in celebrations, not as gameplay groups) which enormous numbers of people RPing, talking, dancing, and the like. The largest of these were a few dozen or so (too large to be in a single operation raid group). It is MASSIVELY-Multiplayer. Sharding is for convenience and lag (do you really want to wait a huge time to kill that named elite for your quest or bonus quest?).

 

You do realize that if a game engine is built to support it... and the developers use the technology available to us today... You can have 100s of people on the screen at once...without lag?

 

Sharding is necessary in THIS GAME because of the way THEY DESIGNED it.

 

No I do not want to wait a long time to kill a named elite for a quest bonus... nor would I bother. That is a whole separate game Design issue.

[Icebaron]

Invention is new ideas.

 

Innovation is using ideas in new ways.

 

Well, roughly speaking.

 

Well to be fair then, Bioware has neither. They didn't invent those ideas, and they didn't improve on them. They just used them more.

 

Rather then a ranged tank for a few token encounters, they have permanent ranged tanks.

Rather then some VO story, they used full VO story.

 

The only innovation they really have is Huttball. Which I personally think is genious.

[TheRainstater]

1. Storyline

2. Voice acting

3. Companion involvement.

4. crafting changes.

5. Account Security

 

these things.

[Vecke]

VO did not fix that for me. I space bar through all the world arc stuff. Its soooo boring and shallow. I hate listening to it, especially the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th time through. I detest leveling in this game.

 

Thing is, in other MMOs, most people I play with just skip ALL quest text, even if it's the first time they talk to the NPC. In DDO, that was a massive complaint from the players because you actually needed to read the texts for some of the quests. In TOR, I've never met anyone that skips the dialogue the first time (for the class quests). I'm sure they're out there, but I've never met them.

 

This is a step forward. Even you inferred (unless I misunderstood you) that you do watch the class quest cutscenes. That alone is more than I've ever seen in any other MMO before.

 

Whether or not you skip it the second or third time isn't really applicable because that's true in every other MMO in existence. And SWTOR - just like the others - lets you skip it. The difference is, in TOR, people actually know the story of their main quests. I've never witnessed that to such a degree in any other MMO.

[WutsInAName]

You must also need your eyes examined not to see the detail in SWTOR... are you playing on High? It looks pretty solid... I'll agree to disagree with you, but I gotta say, the pretty graphics of EQ2 do not make up for it being clunky, boring and lifeless in general... again, my opinion... but I just don't care for EQ2 at all.

 

Yes that explains why in SWTOR my BH armor has painted on lights literally, they have no depth and look exactly like a decal you would put on a crappy model (like the one you build).

 

In comparison you can actually see the individual rings each with depth in EQ2 armor.

 

 

Not even close. EQ2 blows it away and you trying to defend a senseless point (clunky?), like i said you have a bad rig as it was never clunky to me.

 

So just because you played it on low do not discount that those of of playing it at max thought it was beautiful graphics with rich detail. <-- I cannot say the same about SWTOR with a straight face.

Edited February 29, 2012 by WutsInAName

[Icebaron]

Anyone remember that Southpark where they said sh#t on television?

 

Then all the network bigwigs came together and came up with the genius idea to say it more and more because more was obviously better?

 

That was bioware talking about voice acting.

[Vecke]

Well to be fair then, Bioware has neither. They didn't invent those ideas, and they didn't improve on them. They just used them more.

 

Rather then a ranged tank for a few token encounters, they have permanent ranged tanks.

Rather then some VO story, they used full VO story.

 

The only innovation they really have is Huttball. Which I personally think is genious.

 

To be fair to BW, taking an old concept and presenting it a truly new way does qualify as innovative. Methodology can be innovative.

 

BW using VOs isn't innovative.

 

BW making VOs and story a fundamental part of their MMO experience is innovative.

 

For many other MMOs, the story is secondary. In TOR it's the selling point. That's an innovative approach to MMOs. Whether it's a good or significant approach is up for debate.

[KahnyaGnorc]

Personally, I see emulating a table-top experience with a really good DM (or GM) as the "Holy Grail" of computer RPGs. For MMOs, it would be having a number of campaigns with really good DMs/GMs set in the same setting and the same time, running concurrently.

 

That is a long way off, but TOR is a huge step forward in that regard.

[Icebaron]

For many other MMOs, the story is secondary. In TOR it's the selling point. That's an innovative approach to MMOs. Whether it's a good or significant approach is up for debate.

 

That is the failure on Bioware. The big one actually. Make the main selling point something that ends.

 

This could only work if they could pump out content as fast as people could consume it.

 

Not saying the story by itself was a bad idea, but they put all their eggs in that one basket and forgot to make a fun addictive mmo around it.

[AJediKnight]

Fill in the blank.

 

Should we expect a new game to push the genre forward?

 

Is it ok if a new game does not push the genre forward?

 

They have done nothing.

 

And no, it's not okay to have not advanced the ball.

 

It's why the game is falling apart.

[Andryah]

To be fair to BW, taking an old concept and presenting it a truly new way does qualify as innovative. Methodology can be innovative.

 

Correct.

 

Introducing something completely new and never seen before is generally recognized as "invention" or "revolution"

 

Introducing something that improves on something done by someone else is generally recognized as "innovation" or "evolution".

[CptKloss]

One thing they did very well, is that they have proven that pumping $200m into a project does not guarantee anything. Edited February 29, 2012 by CptKloss

[Drallbait]

To be fair to BW, taking an old concept and presenting it a truly new way does qualify as innovative. Methodology can be innovative.

 

BW using VOs isn't innovative.

 

BW making VOs and story a fundamental part of their MMO experience is innovative.

 

For many other MMOs, the story is secondary. In TOR it's the selling point. That's an innovative approach to MMOs. Whether it's a good or significant approach is up for debate.

 

Certainly you can debate its value-add, but there is no doubt it is an innovation that was going to come one way or another. Now the cat is out of the bag, and we will see if it drives the casual MMO market place or not. It is clear hardcore MMOs could take it or leave it for the most part.

[SWImara]

I disagree. For me (and my wife) EQ 2 is hands down the most beautiful and robust MMO on the market. We're actually glad that many people disagree, though, because it makes EQ2 feel like our little secret oasis MMO.

 

Nothing wrong with you not liking it, so please don't think I'm saying you're wrong. Just offering a different perspective. For 7 years, we've been actively trying to find a replacement for EQ2, but have yet to find a game that has so many incredibly diverse features.

 

I personally think TOR could learn a lot from EQ2, especially in regards to its broker system (which is, IMO, perfect).

I considered going back to check out EQ2 many times over the years. Currently I have accounts at LotRO and Champions Online but I have left them shelved for a while for SWTOR. I have been looking for an enjoyable fantasy MMO and remembered EQ2 being a blast but really difficult, that difficulty might be fun for a change now that the game isn't in its initial stages anymore. LotRO can be a blast, but ultimately the story is one of the things that regularly pushes me away from that game, being the fellowship's unmentioned sidekick 4tl.

 

I don't know how any rational person could conclude that the games signature additions to the genre were completely fleshed out masterpieces worthy of incessant praise. Could it just be me? Sure, but I don't have a dog in this race and I could care less if ToR folded up tomorrow or went on for decades.

 

As many people have noted, for the first half of the leveling process, the game is pretty gratifying but once you get further along in the game or hit the level cap and begin a new character, the hype wears off and you begin to see it for what it is.

Certainly wasn't trying to suggest that anything was a masterpiece or perfect. The game could use tons of work no doubt, and some of the newer systems should be worked into the latter portion of th egame. I agree wholly.

[CptKloss]

lol @ "story"... story is nothing, it's inconsequential, linear, mostly cheesy cut-scene dialog painted over 20yr-old same crap quest mechanic Edited February 29, 2012 by CptKloss

[Blackardin]

While TOR itself has failed in mine and many others eyes as a MMORPG, that doesnt change the fact that a number of concepts will be staples of the MMORPG genre going forward.

 

Completely voice acted. EA RPG divison has pushed the limits of what can be done with this and the old stand by of limited voice and heavy text simply will no longer cut it.

 

Companions. EA RPG division has only scratched the surface of this concept (which is kinda sad as I expected them to take it so much farther then they did). Gone are the days of Pets. Future MMORPGs will have to embrace companions as a intrigate part of any character storyline.

 

Crew Skills. While the die hard elitists will never be satisfied with out a full on SWG crafting experience, truth of matter is the vast vast vast majority of players are not looking for the SWG crafting experience. I think TOR again scratchs the surface of whats to come but make no mistake, TOR Crew Skill concepts will be what others build out on. TOR Crew Skills are barely passable as crafting, but their idea and concept is a home run to be sure.

 

Personal storylines, World Arcs, side missions. While again not really a new concept its a enhanced concept that has gone over very well and futire developers will build on what EA RPG Division did here to hopefully full effect and reward.

 

So there are just afew things TOR and EA RPG Division have done to push the genre forward.

 

Facts are TOR missed the mark and will probably be veiwed as yet another major flop of the Star Wars franchise and might actually kill any future Star Wars MMORPG projects (being 2 for 2 in the flop catagory. Yeah yeah, I knopw i know, fabois need not freak out, I know you and your 3 friends disagree). The sad part is TOR is sooooo close to flipping to massive smash hit but its developers clearly just couldnt see the bigger picture.

 

A fine tune here, a rework there, and ALLOT of additional content to bring viable Interactive and social play mechanics and content to TOR and this game becomes the smash hit most thought it would be.

 

But EA RPG Division most definately pushed the genre forward conceptually.

 

I personally will not even look at a AAA MMORPG now thats not 100% fully voiced and offering multiple storylines arcs through out my journey. With out those, I wont even give a title the light of day now. The days of reading never ending text discriptions for quests and enviroment and what not are well over with.

 

The days of simplistic uncontrolable pets are over with. I now demand fully fleshed out companions with their own personalities and speech paterns and the ability to control their tactical actions in combat (TOR only scratchs the surface on that part)

 

The days of running stupid macro scripts while asleep so your character crafts is over. TOR crew Skills have presented a new and exciting concept for crafting. Just now someone needs to expand it so its a viable crafting system and not the gimme TOR version is.

 

But none of this matters one but until someone has the guts and brains enough to stop dumbing the level arc and difficulty down and once again demands players actually THINK and plan rather then 3 button mash while watching TV. As WOW and everything since WOW have presented to us.

 

Though I find your analysis to be accurate overall, there are a few point of conjecture laced in there.

 

This game is not at all a failure, it is a big success. Read any review from any legitimate source, examine the subscriptions and this bears out. I just read the review from game informer (they are the number one gaming magazine in the world), and they too gave it high marks across the board, even boasting, "the best MMO I've ever played". We only hear of its failure on this board and obscure blogs posted on the internet.

 

Certainly there are some tweeks and adjustments to be made (crafting comes to mind), but the correct statement from above would be that you and your three friends think its a flop, the rest of the game playing world are loving it.... ;p

 

Other then that, it was a good read.

[KahnyaGnorc]

Some would want TOR to be a tactical, squad-based "shoot-n-slash" (combination of shooter and hack-n-slash), which is what endgame instance-running, raiding, and PvP are. It has those elements, but it doesn't concentrate on them. (I've raided in past MMOs, but have done so casually, more for the people I raided with than with raiding itself)

 

Some would want TOR to be a simulator (sandbox). It is not that, nor did it ever be advertised as such. (I've played sandbox MMOs before, and never really got into them)

 

Others would want TOR to be an RPG in the MMO space. This is what it is, and, I for one, am glad.

[Iboga]

Yes that explains why in SWTOR my BH armor has painted on lights literally, they have no depth and look exactly like a decal you would put on a crappy model (like the one you build).

 

In comparison you can actually see the individual rings each with depth in EQ2 armor.

 

 

Not even close. EQ2 blows it away and you trying to defend a senseless point (clunky?), like i said you have a bad rig as it was never clunky to me.

 

So just because you played it on low do not discount that those of of playing it at max thought it was beautiful graphics with rich detail. <-- I cannot say the same about SWTOR with a straight face.

 

It runs fine on my computer at max... I just don't think the graphics are all that special and the gameplay is extremely lacking in my opinion. You have a different opinion/experience... that's fine... just like I have a different opinion and experience of SWTOR.

 

I don't and won't ever agree with you. Just leave it alone...