The thought that WoW has more endgame content

[Voqar]

WoW usually has more raids at any given time but not by much and nobody who actually does raiding would count old raids in the quation. The fact that some scrubs still run Kara at lvl 85 doesn't mean WoW has more raids, for ex.

 

At release, WoW had MC (40 man, accessible to few) and UBRS (10 man). It has zero hardmodes or heroics. It had less than a handful of endgame instances.

 

WoW has several BGs now. WoW had zero BGs at release. It didn't have its first BG until 6 months in and WoW's BGs and PvP were brutally plagued by balance issues to the point of them doing repeated major revamps and ultimately adding the resilience stat (which didn't exist at release).

 

WoW has rep grinds (they were very primative to nearly non existent for the average person at release) but rep grinds are nothing but misery and not something anybody sane actually wants).

 

WoW had no heroics at release and the heroics they have now are even more grindy since Bliz pulls the rug out on emblems regularly and bumps them such that you end up grinding instances for higher emblems when the content and loot from the instances themselves are beyond trivial. Even in the beginning, the loot from heroics in WoW is about on par with the loot in TOR's instances - butt useless to people once they get started at all in gearing (crafted is often better, raid loot is surely better, boe's from raids are better - people who take gear seriously trivialize wow 5-man loot almost immediately).

 

Objectively TOR offers more at release than most games ever did at release, but for whatever reasons, so many players have zero perspective, ignore MMORPG history, and/or have no clue.

 

TOR does have the serious problem of handing out too easily, especially for PVP, where even the worst solo players can get decked out in purples with zero effort or skill. It's pretty stupid. Doubly because of the ez-mode side and the fact that without challenges, players get bored and whine about lack of anything to do.

 

How does a developer cater to lazy and useless soloists who want uber rewards for doing ezmode nothing AND give them enough content to keep them happy without actually challenging their one functional brain cell? It's impossible. BW/devs cannot win against the solo scrubs.

[OldBenSmokin]

Cookie Crisp...its all about Cookie Crisp!

 

No, but the 'difficulty' (or lack of) argument seems to be more about everything being inclusive rather than exclusive. In which who cares what the other guy is doing?

 

You can't compare Cookie Crisp to a cereal that came out in the 80's.

[KhealThar]

I can't wait for the day that MMO standards aren't what WoW is doing.

 

 

I dunno about you guys but I'm sick of WoW, I'm sick of playing games like WoW. It's pretty obvious a lot of people feel the same way but developers keep on tossing out WoW clones thinking it will somehow be competitive with WoW.

 

People want something DIFFERENT, I don't want to just grind dailies and grind gear for endgame content.

 

I don't want to grind gear for a month just to be competitive with other players in PVP. I want to just JUMP in on the fun and have a blast, why is it so hard for someone to create an MMO that is fun and not just a mindless grind to get to the fun part but by the time you get there you're so sick of playing the game that it isn't fun?

 

Thank god the GW2 developers understand people don't want to grind endlessly for PVP gear and making new comers the pvp scene scared to even queue because they get 3 shot by battlemasters.

 

I just hope for MMO sake that GW2 delivers. I'm sick and tired of everyone hyping up the next "WoW killer" that just ends up being a terrible version of WoW.

 

 

Most full fledged raiding guilds haven't even cleared all of normal mode DS yet on WoW... Let alone hard modes which are SIGNIFICANTLY more difficult comparatively speaking...

 

These "full fledged" raiding guilds must be bad because I pug DS normal on my server.. I've cleared it 3 times now.

Edited February 28, 2012 by KhealThar

[Inixus]

I wonder y this thread is not closed yet lol

[Zhit]

Thought #1 WoW has more raid content

 

WoW could have less content than TOR--but the fact you can clear all of TOR's raid content in nightmare mode in a few hours with zero preparation makes TOR's content insignificant.

 

Thought #2 TOR raids are too easy vs. WoW

 

Really? Beating the HM raganaos fight in the last raid takes most guilds over 400 wipes to beat. Most guilds that are working on hard modes in the latest raid have less than 3 (of the 8) bosses down. See above--if you have two hours, you can clear TOR's nightmare raids.

 

 

Thought #3 There is nothing to do in TOR at endgame vs. WoW

 

Oh yes--the TOR end game outside of raids is super engaging--that is why the servers are brimming with people. If the content really was there, people would be logging on every day. Our guild has dropped from over 40 people online all the time, to 5 to 10 players. Most only log on once or twice a week.

 

Thought #4 TOR is more aimed at casuals than WoW

 

There is a difference between casual players and a casual game. WoW is definitely an easier game for casual players to find something to do. TOR on the other hand is a casual game--TOR is meant to be played for a few hours then you'll find things get incredibly lonely and boring.

[Terebor]

I don't understand why people are comparing TOR at launch to WoW in it's current state. If you compare to two at launch, TOR comes out on top, no contest.

 

yeah but compare a mmo that released 8y ago with a game that released 3 months ago is better.....

[Terebor]

False... U probably never played wow, or played post nerf content on normal mode.

 

1 - Go back in time and kill Ragnaros Heroic Pre nerf, then go tell Paragon that kill Heroic Ragnaros was easy.

2 - Make a pug and try to down Heroic Lich King today, and now imagine how it was back on WotLK without nerfs.

3 - Go go kill Sinestra.

4 - Then u come back here with screen shots and maybe i listen to that.

 

completely agree...lvl 60 Naxxramas...0.5% of all players at that time killed a boss in there...but yeah raidcontent is easy in wow.... i lol'd

 

not to mention that handling 40 members is wwaaaaaayyyyy harder then 16... i lol'd again..

Edited February 28, 2012 by Terebor

[zDracor]

Well this thread is supposed to be about Endgame content, so bringing up achievements, and all the other pointless garbage WoW has introduced since vanilla is fairly irrelevant.

 

Being a vanilla raider, I loved that difficult, time consuming, large scale raid content blizzard delivered, but compared to this game, there was almost zero content. We had Molten Core for over a year before they even implemented Blackwing Lair.

 

No one really complained, because MC was difficult. But why was MC difficult? Ridiculous DPS checks, fire resist checks, the game had a built in time-sink. To kill rag, you needed gear and mats that came from MC, so you were genuinely stuck waiting for resets, and hoping for ideal loot drops. My nostalgia tells me this was fantastic, but was it really?

 

Sure it felt like there was always something to achieve, slowly improving, trying to get rag down a little more each time, but the mechanics were simple, the difficulty felt cheap, when you look back at it. But I still consider that the golden days of raiding.

 

Ahn'Qiraj came what? 6 or 7 months later. These are big gaps. Sure the content felt polished, and well done but these were really, really big gaps. We're going into month 3 and are already meant to be getting a brand new tier of raid content, that's fantastic.

 

I can't remember how long it took for Naxx, but it was a whole new level, and while we only got to four horseman, that to me was the pinnacle of raiding. That and the C'thun fight.

 

I didn't play Burning Crusade, but my friends did, and apparently it was even better, and it hasn't come close since. Came back right at the end of Wrath, and stayed for a few months in Cataclysm.

 

Was disgusted in how everything worked after that. Stuck around for a while because I liked the people I was playing with, but everything was spoonfed to you. Free loot from heroics at the press of a button, they removed the entire process of gearing up for raiding. Much like TOR has, introduction to raiding was painfully easy, mechanics were decent, but I wouldn't say anything better than this.

 

But again, was there really that much content? We had BWD with it's 7 bosses, temple of the four winds with two, and bastion with another 5. All of normal mode was cleared in days, and heroics were up to the final bosses within a few weeks. It was 6 months before rage of the firelands came out, after cataclysms release. I'd given up by then, I was bored as ****.

 

So, sure there was achievement farming (the worst thing to happen to games, ever) there was arena, or battlegrounds (Rated and normal), and farming dailies.

 

So, we've sort of got achievements through the slightly buggy codex, we've got daily farming for money, we've got 10 raid bosses with 3 difficulty modes at 2 months in, we've got another raid instance coming, we've already had a new dungeon, and have at least one more coming in 1.2. We've already got the battlegrounds, we're about to get rated battlegrounds. All we're missing is Arena.

 

This is a game that is going on three months old. It has a fair amount of content for a first tier, it just may have been tuned a little bit easier than people were hoping (but to be honest, not much easier than the first tier of cata) It has a second tier coming, which who knows, maybe they've ironed that difficulty curve out a little now. At less than three months in, I'm really not seeing why people are complaining so much about a lack of content. Sure I'd love to have more stuff to do, that'd be fantastic, but for a first tier of raiding, in a brand new MMO? There is plenty. To have a second tier coming so fast? That's excellent.

 

Now that's not saying the bug-testing department seriously dropped the ball, but that's an entirely different issue.

Edited February 28, 2012 by zDracor

[Nemmar]

Thought #1 WoW has more raid content

 

WoW could have less content than TOR--but the fact you can clear all of TOR's raid content in nightmare mode in a few hours with zero preparation makes TOR's content insignificant.

 

.

 

Your case drops right there.

 

It just isnt the case. Probably for guilds that rushed to lvl50 and took advantage of the yet broken gear system to get geared in a week and rush the operation content.

 

I dont know a single guild in my server that has cleared Nightmare mode. SOA hard-mode is pretty challenging and all i saw of nightmare is pretty challenging aswell, with the necessity for everyone in the raid to know what they are doing so they dont wipe the raid.

Theres a new operation coming out next month aswell with 1.2. I'm honestly more worried with Bioware getting the things tested and bug free than to rush it out though. That is the real concern, not this whole myth that all is easy. If you get to 50 a month after the game launched like a normal person, you will not have cleared nightmare mode yet unless you got a whole guild geared up and pulling you through.

 

Its funny how people easily beat normal mode and think its all a cake walk. Its a phenomenon common on WoW aswell.

 

Apprantly making content where you wipe over and over is making better content according to some.

[Terebor]

Just don't forget we are talking about games that released 8y apart from eachother...IMO a new MMO coming out has to learn from mistakes other MMO's already did...and thats the reason why all MMO's after WoW failed so hard. They all did similar mistakes and nearly no improvements.

 

And then call it very well polished is a *********** joke....

[JediElf]

Why do we 'need' more endgame content?

 

Why don't we strive for more storytelling content, more interactive content, more ways to make the journey longer and more involved.

 

Why does every MMO, have a devolve into this cave man mentality of '"My stick is longer than your stick!"

 

This game is, as far as I can tell, about story telling and creativity. it's about Star Wars, and it's about having fun.

 

We don't need the toxic pall of Alpha Male Posturing. Save that for TERA, D3, and GW2. >_>

[Terebor]

Why do we 'need' more endgame content?

 

Why don't we strive for more storytelling content, more interactive content, more ways to make the journey longer and more involved.

 

Why does every MMO, have a devolve into this cave man mentality of '"My stick is longer than your stick!"

 

This game is, as far as I can tell, about story telling and creativity. it's about Star Wars, and it's about having fun.

 

We don't need the toxic pall of Alpha Male Posturing. Save that for TERA, D3, and GW2. >_>

 

because we are all hunters and gatherers?

[Tadshackles]

I love SW:TOR as much as the next fanboy... but you can seriously be trying to tell people that TOR raids are just as hard as WoW's can you?

 

My first week of hitting 50 I pugged EV with random people, and no vent and we cleared all but Soa within 2 hours... the only reason we couldn't beat Soa was because of the literally dozens of bugs.

 

Now I regularly pug HM EV and always go at least 4/5 with just random people.

 

Pugs can't even beat 25 man LK in WoW consistently and they outlevel it and out gear it by multiple tiers.

 

 

When WotLK opened people were pugging Naxx in the first week... Your point is moot.

[Carltronus]

Given how young TOR is compared to WoW, its like comparing a Shetland Pony to a Shire Horse.

[Takauri]

The problem with both WOW and TOR is the same as with Rift and any other MMO following the same model which is the ridiculous idea that content consists of.....

 

1. Pick up dailies, complete dailies for a little extra item/rep/token just as you did yesterday

 

2. Repeat the same instances that you did yesterday for a chance at an item/rep/token

 

3. Repeat the same raid that you did last week for a chance at an item/rep/token

 

 

PVP is just as bad with the mini games in a box of predictability that has zero effect on the world and serves solely to drip feed more chances at an item/rep/token

 

 

The whole "hop on a treadmill chasing gear" idea to keep players entertained (LOL - entertained!) is severely dated

 

Luckily companies are beginning to recognise this and are starting to move away from it even with small steps... We have the likes of Secret World, Archeage and Guild Wars 2 all making steps and in some cases leaping as far away from the "standard" model as possible which offers hope to the players that things are finally going to move on to the next stage.

 

I remember the huge arguments during beta over themepark vs sandbox with so many short sighted players spewing, almost violently, about how it 100% theme park is the only model that works and sandbox is a failure.

 

Well, look at all of the MMO's hemorrhaging subscriptions whilst being labelled as failures because they all took the strict quest hub to quest hub on rails model to the extreme and dumbed down mechanics and difficulty to such an extent that pre-pubescent children are now able to competenty complete all content if allowed to.

 

The WOW generation scream "welcome to MMOs" or "how else are they supposed to do it?" because they simply do not know any better whilst those of us who pioneered the genre know what is possible and have watched it slip away whilst companies chase the WOW left overs from the floor for a share of the pie with the exact same recipe in a slightly different wrapper.

 

I think TOR has accomplished something massive for the industry - it has highlighted in true style due to it's rapdily declining population after such a massive budget and development period that the pure themepark model does not work.

 

I'm personally looking forward to some innovation coming along now because I'm sure that no investor will touch what is now for some reason refered to as a "traditional" MMO again. Give us something to have pride in again as players and as guilds rather than the utterly forgettable trash that we are spoon fed right now.

 

Bring on the themepark / sandbox hybrids with meaningful impact by players on the world! Make them feel invested in what they "own" as individuals and as guilds and get rid of the 2 faction crap and the extreme hand holding.

 

Viva la revolution!

 

 

[edit] Typos

Edited February 28, 2012 by Takauri

[TUXs]

Really, did you think you debunked those claims? Really? Poor job there.

 

You tell him...err...wait...you didn't...

[Dayfax]

I think TOR has accomplished something massive for the industry - it has highlighted in true style due to it's rapdily declining population after such a massive budget and development period that the pure themepark model does not work.

 

I'm personally looking forward to some innovation coming along now because I'm sure that no investor will touch what is now for some reason refered to as a "traditional" MMO again. Give us something to have pride in again as players and as guilds rather than the utterly forgettable trash that we are spoon fed right now.

 

If TOR maintains a modicum of profitability, nobody will have been taught anything.

 

We're talkng about big corporations in a billion dollar industry. They'll learn that as long as you have a brand/IP in place, you can turn out a clone and still get a return on your investment.

 

The same thing happened in the movie business, which is why your multiplex is packed with the like of "Transformers 3" and "Pirates of the Carribean 5" or whatever, instead of anything slightly fresh.

 

I'd love to see half of the things in your post come to fruition, but if the tune gets coin, nobody will change it.

[Terebor]

When WotLK opened people were pugging Naxx in the first week... Your point is moot.

 

Wrath Naxx was nothing more than a dissapointment...especially for those who raided Naxx at lvl 60. When MC, BWL, AQ opened did anyone Pug? no...

 

so bringing in 1 bad instance that came up 5y after release says absolutely nothing

[Tadshackles]

Wrath Naxx was nothing more than a dissapointment...especially for those who raided Naxx at lvl 60. When MC, BWL, AQ opened did anyone Pug? no...

 

so bringing in 1 bad instance that came up 5y after release says absolutely nothing

 

Yes it does and here is why. Wrath was the dawn of "catering to the casuals" Naxx was the first (although it was a reboot) of the "we want all players to see the content" idea.

 

The opening of Wrath is the most appropriate comparison for SWTOR. There was Naxx, Sarth & Maly. All were puggable. My servers first 10 man server kill of maly was a pug in the first week. One raid and 2 (basically) instanced 'world bosses'

 

Wrath was also bugged to high heII Cata was LITERALLY a fixed and improved Vanilla WoW with the beauty being that all the original players were long gone so they got away with it. They made you pay 50 bucks for the same shlt you already had!

 

WoW in my opinion has a better engine, and a more fine tuned combat system and that is it. Content was all the same. Even the dungeons all had regurgitated maps we had all seen a hundred times!

[JediElf]

Statement retracted because the poster below me is actually right.

 

I apologize.

 

However, I still maintain that this s a far more cerebral game, in terms of leveling content and story, than anyone gives it credit for.

 

Does it really need an endless parade of 'hardcore' raids, that take resources away from voice acting, and cinemas?

Edited February 28, 2012 by JediElf

[Jxspyder]

I don't want to sound terse but....Just go play WOW, and leave those of us who appreciate the storytelling of this game, to play in peace.

 

Go have the 'hard core' experience, somewhere else. >_>

 

I don't want to sound equally terse, but you should take his statement in context instead of focusing on how to respond.

[Muskaan]

Here's a few reason why WoW's end game is so much superior--

 

1. Raiding caters to both the very casual (through the new "looking For Raid" feature) and the very hardcore (through extremely well-designed heroic bosses)

 

2. Achievements - lot of people who don't like to raid are achievement chasers. Plenty of achievements to chase at max level

 

3. Transmogrification - This was an amazing addition. This has now made people want to play the old raid in order to get a hold of that cool-looking one piece of gear that they always wanted. I see people running MC, BWL a LOT (which is amazing since they are outdated and dead raids)

 

4. Monthly events like "Darkmoon Fair" - another neat way of breaking the tedium of the repetition that is part of an MMO. Tons of people take part in this for achievements, rare mounts and often just for fun

 

5. Mini games like fishing, cooking and archaeology. I have never figured out why something as simple as Fishing is so massively popular in WoW. I have never been a fishing guy. But I have guild-mates spend hours fishing out coins in Dalaran. Talk about joblessness.

 

6. Mini games like "Plant vs Zombies" - Neat touch.

 

7. Rare pets and mounts - this is a massive chick magnet. One of my friend's girl friend spends hours farming cute non-combat pets and rare pets for her hunter. She would spend hours taming those rare spirit beast. This is a massive mini-game. Unless you have played a hunter, you have no idea how much of an obsession taming rare pets can become even to the best (or worst) of us.

 

8. Seasonal events like "Fire Festival", "Valentine's Day" etc - this adds a sense of time to the MMO and also forces people to farm for rare mounts and other items --- "ZOMG, it's my last chance this year to get the Headless Horsemen Mount. I WANT, I WANT!!"

 

9. Arenas - for hardcore PvP junkies who prefer them. Balancing nightmare causes FOTM which is a constant dev challenge. However, arenas in WoW are very popular in spite of balance issues.

 

10. Battle Grounds -- for the casual PvP-er, this is great fun. Lots of BGs to choose from.

 

11. Twinking - A great diversion to people who dig these sort of thing. Low level (level 19 bracket is most intense) PvP twinking is amazing fun.

 

12. BoA and alt leveling -- Last but not least, BoA gear makes you want to level alts. Put Crusader on a BoA 2H axe and level that warrior u always wanted to level but was too lazy to do so before.

 

TLDR -- WoW caters to a very diverse playerbase from the hardcore PvP-er and PvE-er to the very casual camper; from the people who like massive 25 man content to the people who love to solo. And this is why they have 10 million sub.

[Durasturan]

The problem with both WOW and TOR is the same as with Rift and any other MMO following the same model which is the ridiculous idea that content consists of.....

 

1. Pick up dailies, complete dailies for a little extra item/rep/token just as you did yesterday

 

2. Repeat the same instances that you did yesterday for a chance at an item/rep/token

 

3. Repeat the same raid that you did last week for a chance at an item/rep/token

 

 

PVP is just as bad with the mini games in a box of predictability that has zero effect on the world and serves solely to drip feed more chances at an item/rep/token

 

 

The whole "hop on a treadmill chasing gear" idea to keep players entertained (LOL - entertained!) is severely dated

 

Luckily companies are beginning to recognise this and are starting to move away from it even with small steps... We have the likes of Secret World, Archeage and Guild Wars 2 all making steps and in some cases leaping as far away from the "standard" model as possible which offers hope to the players that things are finally going to move on to the next stage.

 

I remember the huge arguments during beta over themepark vs sandbox with so many short sighted players spewing, almost violently, about how it 100% theme park is the only model that works and sandbox is a failure.

 

Well, look at all of the MMO's hemorrhaging subscriptions whilst being labelled as failures because they all took the strict quest hub to quest hub on rails model to the extreme and dumbed down mechanics and difficulty to such an extent that pre-pubescent children are now able to competenty complete all content if allowed to.

 

The WOW generation scream "welcome to MMOs" or "how else are they supposed to do it?" because they simply do not know any better whilst those of us who pioneered the genre know what is possible and have watched it slip away whilst companies chase the WOW left overs from the floor for a share of the pie with the exact same recipe in a slightly different wrapper.

 

I think TOR has accomplished something massive for the industry - it has highlighted in true style due to it's rapdily declining population after such a massive budget and development period that the pure themepark model does not work.

 

I'm personally looking forward to some innovation coming along now because I'm sure that no investor will touch what is now for some reason refered to as a "traditional" MMO again. Give us something to have pride in again as players and as guilds rather than the utterly forgettable trash that we are spoon fed right now.

 

Bring on the themepark / sandbox hybrids with meaningful impact by players on the world! Make them feel invested in what they "own" as individuals and as guilds and get rid of the 2 faction crap and the extreme hand holding.

 

Viva la revolution!

 

 

[edit] Typos

 

Errr, bleeding subs? Proof? Oh that's right you have none. No investor will touch another MMO because SWTOR beat investor forecasts and earned far more money than expected? Ok, that's just silly. SWTOR has already made a huge chunk of money, beat all analysts forecasts, and based on server pop data, isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Your argument is long winded, but that doesn't make it right, just full of 10x more fail.

[Norumaniac]

I feel like I just read an article about evolution written by a creationist.

 

Lol.

 

 

Btw to the OP, id like to see the armory of your main in WoW, where i can see how easy the heroics are.

 

Burning Crusade had some killer content also.

[Takauri]

Errr, bleeding subs? Proof? Oh that's right you have none. No investor will touch another MMO because SWTOR beat investor forecasts and earned far more money than expected? Ok, that's just silly. SWTOR has already made a huge chunk of money, beat all analysts forecasts, and based on server pop data, isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Your argument is long winded, but that doesn't make it right, just full of 10x more fail.

 

Feel free to save your quote of my post and refer to it in 2 months

 

Link to analysts forecasts please?

Links to server pop data please? (Actual player numbers, not banding for high/med/low which changes and is different per server)

 

This game will take a very long time to return anything significant back to it's investors.

 

Do the math, it's not difficult.

 

You're welcome