This game lacks epeen

[Arkerus]

Epeen envy? You could have raided in vanilla WoW and only logged on 1-2 nights a week like many many did, you just couldn't be a keyturning bad. Its exactly this load of BS I quoted that is recently responsible for some people starting to use the word "casual" to define a bad players.

 

WoW saw most of its growth under that so called dead model and it's population went more stagnent the more everyone got a trophy. So what you're basically saying is "welcome to the age of welfare mmos." My response is with that the age of mmos is basically over then.

 

This game offers three difficulty settings of what would be tantamount to LBRS/UBRS runs in vanilla WoW. That isn't going to keep any player satisfied for long, not even the keyturning bads.

 

You say game makers have realized that welfare mmos make everyone happy. That is a ridiculas statement. MMO makers have tried to make everyone happy because they saw WoW make alot of money doing it. WoW secured roughly half of its demographic through psychological invensments in character and simply loyalty between players because they have played the game together for YEARS before WoW sold out and went Green Day with punk rock. For that reason, no mmo maker is going to pull WoW's numbers ever again because fool me once shame on you, fool me twice...

 

 

WoW made bank because it was the first of its kind to offer rewards to everyone, green or purple or orange.

 

 

However, there was a serious issue. ONLY 5% of the players ever saw raids because they didn't have the gear to get in and the barrier to entry was way too high.

 

Sorry bub, that model is bust. You have rose colored glasses from vanilla WoW. Very few players had the raid gear and very few players had the "ultra grind" PvP gear. Very, very few. That is a fact, straight from the WoW devs.

 

 

Now players can get gear that is decent and have something to show for their time. It might be tier 2 but at least they beat the content and got their reward.

 

If you want to be one of the 7 players on a server that calls themselves a special flower, maybe this game isn't for you.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Arkerus

[Darcedge]

This game has plenty of epeen factor. There are speeders and titles that only go the players who beat the hardest content or put in the most time.

 

What this game does correctly is make sure that ANYONE who puts in any reasonable amount of effort can at least get the 2nd tier set of gear and doesn't have to be a total scrub stuck in green gear.

 

The model of 7 people on the server (who don't leave their house) are the only ones with "epic" gear is over.

 

Let me say it again. That. Model. Is. Done. IT died with WoW when the devs realized that gaming was a model everyone can enjoy.

 

Gaming companies no longer only hand our rewards to a few players. Everyone has a chance to the gear as long as they put in the effort to beat that content.

 

 

That's the way it should be.

 

This is exactly what some people don't seem to grasp. Now there are games out there that still stick to the original formula. Doesn't EQ have now a timeless server that pretty much starts from the beginning? Haven't researched it but isn't Vanguard still up and running? Lots of people here talk about EVE. There are options out there, if this isn't your cup of tea move on or check back if BW decides to release headbanging content. There's really nothing else to say.

 

I'll be sticking around though because I like content I can clear in a couple hours and still make it to bed by a reasonable time, but that's just me I guess.

[Vlaxitov]

WoW made bank because it was the first of its kind to offer rewards to everyone, green or purple or orange.

 

 

However, there was a serious issue. ONLY 5% of the players ever saw raids because they didn't have the gear to get in and the barrier to entry was way too high.

 

Sorry bub, that model is bust. You have rose colored glasses from vanilla WoW. Very few players had the raid gear and very few players had the "ultra grind" PvP gear. Very, very few. That is a fact, straight from the WoW devs.

 

 

Now players can get gear that is decent and have something to show for their time. It might be tier 2 but at least they beat the content and got their reward.

 

If you want to be one of the 7 players on a server that calls themselves a special flower, maybe this game isn't for you.

 

I was on my third mmo by the time WoW came out. WoW was the first for your kind, and thats the problem. Like I said, with the so called dead model you keep taking to ad absurdum, craptons of people I knew progressively raided in the 1-2 days a week they played. You have brown colored glasses of bitterness for whatever reason you failed at vanilla WoW.

 

That low percentage you're misquoting and miscontruing from WoW dev's was them talking about the people who COMPLETED all the raid content, not just raided. Very very few beat the game, just as it should be. Its people who think their sub automatically entitles them to beat a game that has ruined online gaming over these past years. Thats why titles like CoD have stayed king for soo long, because you can't welfare away multiplayer FPS.

 

Name one mmo that has even held a candle to WoW's success and just like you keep saying to people, I want proof. People don't want welfare mmos, not casuals, not even bads. People need a reason to aspire to do better in all games let alone mmos. People who demand an entitled trophy really just want facebook with an avatar.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Vlaxitov

[ChicksDigHarleys]

Unless they have quit in the last 2 weeks, SWTOR has 1.2 million subscribers.

 

Where'd that 1.2 mil come from? Last I heard was 1.7 mil. I do believe it is well under 1.7 now, but 1.2 would be a pretty drastic drop meaning they've now lost 40% of their launch numbers in only two months...not quite AoC level of fail, but not far off.

[Saurakk]

Like I said, with the so called dead model you keep taking to ad absurdum, craptons of people I knew progressively raided in the 1-2 days a week they played. You have brown colored glasses of bitterness for whatever reason you failed at vanilla WoW.

 

That low percentage you're misquoting and miscontruing from WoW dev's was them talking about the people who COMPLETED the raid content, not just raided.

 

Name one mmo that has even held a candel to WoW's success and just like you keep saying to people, I want proof. People don't want welfare mmos, not casuals, not even bads. People want a reaso to aspire to do better in mmos, people who demand an entitled trophy really just want facebook with an avatar.

 

Just like awarding kids with 7th place trophies, every little league team getting an award for playing, kids thinking because they paid their tuition and attended some classes that they deserve a good grade...rolls right into the misconception that because I pay my monthly fee and log in, I DESERVE all loot that is created in the game.

 

Well sadly some people still think that putting in more time and more effort should lead to a greater reward.

 

Imagine that concept.

 

That is not dead in gaming and should not be. Rewards should scale appropriately.

 

Raiding accomplishes that regardless of some people's biased bitterness towards that type of gameplay.

 

I would bet we will be seeing more raid only loot added to the game that will be rewarded to the people who coordinate raid groups, work the content until the strategies are figured out, and dedicate themselves to that type of gameplay.

 

Nothing wrong with it and it is humorous how people try to demonize all people who enjoy to raid. Some like to sit and fish/craft, some like to RP, some like quest, some like to PvP, some like to start alts, and some like to raid.

 

The game is big enough to cater to all play styles.

[Agenteusa]

The problem with epeen is how people use it I guess, same as Recount.

 

It´s something I have no problem with if used moderately, but if used abusively it becomes obnoxious.

 

I also want more content, I like having challenges, I think the game is fairly easy and all that.

 

My point is I don´t think the priority after 2 months is adding more content simply because some people already finished everything (or they consider they have). That´s great, so did I, but being a better player than others or being in a best guild than others doesn´t entitle you to ask for more content.

 

Tell you what, lots of my friends played Online FPS´s so I thought "why not, let´s give it a try". I ended up realizing I sucked at it. So I just stopped playing cause it wasn´t definitely my game.

 

Ofc I could go on the forums ranting that people cheat, use aimbots or just plain do what some do and go to the ridicule point of complaining just because others are better.

 

That´s the issue with some players in mmo´s, you can´t accept soem games are not for you. You expected hard, BW told you it wouldn´t be "that" hard. you verify that statement and still come complain that the game is this or is that just because it doesn´t match YOUR expectations.

 

If it doesn´t play another game. I´m not being sarcastic or anything, it´s just the simple truth.

[Vlaxitov]

The game is big enough to cater to all play styles.

 

Its that claim that has driven all mmos into permenant medicracy imho.

 

You can't make everyone happy.

[Matte_Black]

Don't you think the hard core players also want to see the bugs fixed? Hard core players don't want new content either?

 

Did you not type that out properly?

 

All of those things you claim are desired by each type of player. There's no reason for the casual players to cry about hard core players wanting more of a challenge.

 

You missed the point of my post. It was answering why casual players complain about calls for harder content. The simple fact is that the casual players don't really put a high priority on adding harder content, especially against all the other things resources and developement could be directed to.

 

If you see an attempt to divert good effort away from your priorities and possibly even evoloving the game away from what you like about it, it's of little surprise that you would complain about it. In general, your casual players just aren't interested in harder content and validation of leet skills, they mostly want to kick back and enjoy themselves and the story.

 

There is some overlap among some wants but, the two groups frequently play for different reasons and and approach their play with very different philosophies. I have a very good friend who would be considered hard-core who plays to exert control over the game and seek perfection and edge of his seat drama. Meanwhile, my work day is made up of keeping the lid on chaos and defusing drama so, I play to blow off steam and be entertained in a casual playstyle that is often in direct contrast to how hard-cores want to play.

 

I could be wrong but when I look at the development of the game and what features it was released with, I see a game that is alot more in line with casual play and the frequent complaints seem to bear that out.

[ThreeDGrunge]

WoW had some difficult content and you lost me when you mentioned the easiest game in history, borderlands. 1 Hellfire at level 20 and you can 2 shot the rest of the game except crawmerax. The game was a joke and a huge letdown imo.

 

Wow was the easiest mmo to release at the time. It had absolutely no difficult content (raiding at endgame for the same gear everyone else has is not content). WOW was the first mmo to hold your hand the entire time you played. It brought to the mmo universe nothing but a scourge of terrible gamers that merely want to be at the end as fast as possible so they can be the same like everyone else.

 

 

 

You missed the point of the comment on borderlands. The random gear was the fun aspect, not the fact that it became too easy due to scaling and how it presented itself. The game was great fun if you played it for what it was.

[Clawrod]

I was on my third mmo by the time WoW came out. WoW was the first for your kind, and thats the problem. Like I said, with the so called dead model you keep taking to ad absurdum, craptons of people I knew progressively raided in the 1-2 days a week they played. You have brown colored glasses of bitterness for whatever reason you failed at vanilla WoW.

 

That low percentage you're misquoting and miscontruing from WoW dev's was them talking about the people who COMPLETED all the raid content, not just raided. Very very few beat the game, just as it should be. Its people who think their sub automatically entitles them to beat a game that has ruined online gaming over these past years. Thats why titles like CoD have stayed king for soo long, because you can't welfare away multiplayer FPS.

 

Name one mmo that has even held a candle to WoW's success and just like you keep saying to people, I want proof. People don't want welfare mmos, not casuals, not even bads. People need a reason to aspire to do better in all games let alone mmos. People who demand an entitled trophy really just want facebook with an avatar.

 

You surely have a ego problem... anyway im old school and i have been playing on line since there was Internet. And from experience let me tell you Mr. L33t that no matter what gear you got, what imba end game sward you managed to roll a 93 on, a bad player will always be bad.

atm im not hardcore as i use to be because i have a job and a family to look after and still, with my semi-good pvp gear (mix of centurion and Champion) i manage to solo Battlemasters.

 

I really dont give a rats behind about how awesome ppl think they are because they got the uber weapon or whatever end game gear they got thinks to the OPS mates with close to none personal skill.

 

Imo ppl that QQ about not being one of the 3 in server with the hardcore-close to impossible to get-eliteist-rare-ultra mega gear is because it gives them some kind of advantage when fighting ppl with lesser gear.

 

Bring it on baby... ill even let you open on me.

[Agenteusa]

You surely have a ego problem... anyway im old school and i have been playing on line since there was Internet. And from experience let me tell you Mr. L33t that no matter what gear you got, what imba end game sward you managed to roll a 93 on, a bad player will always be bad.

atm im not hardcore as i use to be because i have a job and a family to look after and still, with my semi-good pvp gear (mix of centurion and Champion) i manage to solo Battlemasters.

 

I really dont give a rats behind about how awesome ppl think they are because they got the uber weapon or whatever end game gear they got thinks to the OPS mates with close to none personal skill.

 

Imo ppl that QQ about not being one of the 3 in server with the hardcore-close to impossible to get-eliteist-rare-ultra mega gear is because it gives them some kind of advantage when fighting ppl with lesser gear.

 

Bring it on baby... ill even let you open on me.

 

+1.

 

I enjoyed you posted this since I was kinda thinking if I should post that I also solo BM´s with my 1 piece centurion, 1 piece champion and 1 piece columni with my PT.

 

People still confuse hardcore with skill...pff...

[Clawrod]

Its that claim that has driven all mmos into permenant medicracy imho.

 

You can't make everyone happy.

 

untrue but even if it was true and you were a suit would you make a game to make the 10% Hardcore clients base happy or would you instead place ur money on the 90% casual player base?

[Mynden]

I really don't like the use of hardcore and casually. I raid 9 hours per week during progression (3 hours now that it's all on farm) and aside from leveling my alt don't log on much. I've cleared everything in 16 man nightmare including the speed runs. I did it all in less than a month. I would wager I play significantly less than many people who call themselves casual. What this boils down to is some people want to be challenged, others want everything handed to them.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again. You may not realize it, but you WANT a mountain to climb. It's what keeps you coming back. When you have nothing to shoot for you stop logging in.

[Aepervius]

Exacly. I have canceled my sub, and 'might' come back if they add this.

 

I will not pay for a game that only lets me roll alts or play piss easy content.

 

There is the issue: The so called "hardcore players" just goes though the content faster than the "softcore players". This means that in a few months the softcore people will come to the EXACT same conclusion.

 

But usually people are to .... to see this.

 

You jsut sunk your own argument on why SWTOR should even *consider* hardcore player. See if as you say it takes a few month for the casual to come to the same conclusion, that in reality it means that the dev have many months to develop more endgame content, and by the time all casual reach end game they would have already something prepared. But if they cater to the hardcore community they have to out the content much faster, buggier, and with less planning.

 

In other word you gave ammunition to why dev should ignore the hardcore and concentrate on the casual which will give them time to develop much better and deeper content.

[Aepervius]

I am a casual i work 50 plus hours a week have 3 children. I am maxed lvl have full set of columi and maxed crafting twice..

 

Your definition of casual is out of whack.

[Eddizel]

My thread sure has turned into alot of crying and nonsense.

 

I just realized something though, in this game so far, I was able to level up, grind battlemaster and the best pvp gear, and beat every size and difficulty raid encounter...........in roughly half the time it took our guild to progress on one boss in Firelands in WOW: Heroic Ragnaros pre 4.3.

 

That is just.........wrong.

 

Oh well, I am only here as long as my guild is, and it doesn't look like much longer unless 1.2 news is dropped soon and then the actual execution of it is amazing.

 

You have to realize some of us only play as long as our guilds do, people who have been playing together a long time, so you don't just bleed quality players, you will bleed entire quality guilds.

[Matte_Black]

I really don't like the use of hardcore and casually. I raid 9 hours per week during progression (3 hours now that it's all on farm) and aside from leveling my alt don't log on much. I've cleared everything in 16 man nightmare including the speed runs. I did it all in less than a month. I would wager I play significantly less than many people who call themselves casual. What this boils down to is some people want to be challenged, others want everything handed to them.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again. You may not realize it, but you WANT a mountain to climb. It's what keeps you coming back. When you have nothing to shoot for you stop logging in.

 

I have always defined hard-core and casual more by progression per hour played than by hours logged. It's how you come at playing the game more than how much you play. I think your casual player tends to view the play content as something to be savored while the hard-core views it(at least the levelling content) as an obstacle to overcome.

[Stupiddrummer]

My thread sure has turned into alot of crying and nonsense.

 

I just realized something though, in this game so far, I was able to level up, grind battlemaster and the best pvp gear, and beat every size and difficulty raid encounter...........in roughly half the time it took our guild to progress on one boss in Firelands in WOW: Heroic Ragnaros pre 4.3.

 

That is just.........wrong.

 

Oh well, I am only here as long as my guild is, and it doesn't look like much longer unless 1.2 news is dropped soon and then the actual execution of it is amazing.

 

You have to realize some of us only play as long as our guilds do, people who have been playing together a long time, so you don't just bleed quality players, you will bleed entire quality guilds.

 

welcome back OP. You have created this monster of a thread so you will also be given the task of destroying it.

[Mynden]

I have always defined hard-core and casual more by progression per hour played than by hours logged. It's how you come at playing the game more than how much you play. I think your casual player tends to view the play content as something to be savored while the hard-core views it(at least the levelling content) as an obstacle to overcome.

 

I get what you're saying, but I don't know if thats entirely accurate either. Many of the "casual" players I come across don't want to savor content. They flip if they can't clear it instantly. "It's too hard" or "I already have a job" are common complaints I hear if someone dares suggest things be in this game that require time and skill to accomplish.

 

I remember when I first got to 70 towards the end of BC in wow (late comer). I saw a guy from Deus Vox, who were at the time US #1 in all his Sunwell gear. I wanted that. I chased it. I never made it there, but by God it kept me logging in trying to get better. And I did get better. That's the unseen problem in all this. When everything is easy, you socially engineer your community to seek the path of least resistance. The game loses it's epic feel. I don't want to pretend my character is a bad *** because he killed some boss that's tough in lore, I want to feel like a good player because I did something that was difficult in execution. When everything is easy that sense of accomplishment goes with it.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Mynden

[Quraswren]

My thread sure has turned into alot of crying and nonsense.

 

I just realized something though, in this game so far, I was able to level up, grind battlemaster and the best pvp gear, and beat every size and difficulty raid encounter...........in roughly half the time it took our guild to progress on one boss in Firelands in WOW: Heroic Ragnaros pre 4.3.

 

That is just.........wrong.

 

Oh well, I am only here as long as my guild is, and it doesn't look like much longer unless 1.2 news is dropped soon and then the actual execution of it is amazing.

 

You have to realize some of us only play as long as our guilds do, people who have been playing together a long time, so you don't just bleed quality players, you will bleed entire quality guilds.

 

Going to need to see some proof of all those accomplishments before I believe them. I know it seems silly but way to many people spout off things around here they never actually did.

 

I'll even come to you server if need be. Hows that?

[Stupiddrummer]

Wow was the easiest mmo to release at the time. It had absolutely no difficult content (raiding at endgame for the same gear everyone else has is not content). WOW was the first mmo to hold your hand the entire time you played. It brought to the mmo universe nothing but a scourge of terrible gamers that merely want to be at the end as fast as possible so they can be the same like everyone else.

 

 

my vanilla guild would like a word with you. we spent at least a month on the first boss of BWL.

[Vlaxitov]

You surely have a ego problem... anyway im old school and i have been playing on line since there was Internet. And from experience let me tell you Mr. L33t that no matter what gear you got, what imba end game sward you managed to roll a 93 on, a bad player will always be bad.

atm im not hardcore as i use to be because i have a job and a family to look after and still, with my semi-good pvp gear (mix of centurion and Champion) i manage to solo Battlemasters.

 

You say I have an ego problem then boast about you're accomplishments in this game despite being a superior human being with more important things to do than someone who does better at online games than you. What a joke. Try joining an amature baseball league, then tell the people who play better than you that its due to a combo of them affording better equipment and having a crappier meaningless life compared to you thus they have more hours to practice, and see how long you last. Only online anonymity could make someone comfortable enough to spew the nonesense you did right here.

 

I really dont give a rats behind about how awesome ppl think they are because they got the uber weapon or whatever end game gear they got thinks to the OPS mates with close to none personal skill.

 

What does anything have to do with a bad thinking hes awesome because he got carried to gear in past mmos. In this game a bad doesen't need carried to gear, its handed to you in the first month or two of playing it. Tell me why should I continue to pay a fee for a game I've already beaten with nothing else to aspire for? That might be great for people who play this game 1-2 hours a week. I currently play this game 4 hours a week. Wanna know why? Its because I log on to do my weekly LBRS/UBRS runs in a couple different modes.

 

 

Imo ppl that QQ about not being one of the 3 in server with the hardcore-close to impossible to get-eliteist-rare-ultra mega gear is because it gives them some kind of advantage when fighting ppl with lesser gear.

 

I keep hearing this fallacy parroted over and over. Some mmo devs say very few completed, I repeat, COMPLETED the raid content and you loud & proud welfare recipients misquote it as very few people raided at all. You're lying and even if you weren't, if you didn't raid then you wanted to and that gave you a reason to play the game beyond a single player RPG. If you look at population trends in most current mmos, the pattern represents about how long I stay interested in a single player RPG and why shouldn't it.

 

Bring it on baby... ill even let you open on me.

 

Again, coming from a guy who says I have an ego problem, lulz.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Vlaxitov

[Aepervius]

Alright, I'll accept your response to my specific post. However, why are casuals complaining about players who want something a little bit more challenging? What's the deal with that? Same gear in Normal as in Hard & Nightmare. Why are they so vocal to stop some challenging content?

 

Because the time spent making the same content harder, by dev and artist, for 5% server population at best, could be much better spent doing new planet, new story, new stuff which caters to 95-100% of the population. Clear ?

[Aepervius]

Don't you think the hard core players also want to see the bugs fixed? Hard core players don't want new content either?

 

Did you not type that out properly?

 

All of those things you claim are desired by each type of player. There's no reason for the casual players to cry about hard core players wanting more of a challenge.

 

development is not an infinite resource. If part of the team is doing stuff nightmare/hellish/godhard for the hardcore , then that part of the team is not doing anything else for the 95% rest. Is that so hard to understand ?

[Mynden]

Because the time spent making the same content harder, by dev and artist, for 5% server population at best, could be much better spent doing new planet, new story, new stuff which caters to 95-100% of the population. Clear ?

 

Which without a reasonable challenge to it will be consumed within a week or 2 by everyone, and we'll be right back where we are now. Not logging on with nothing to do.