Hardcore Raider DPS - Dilemma - Being hindered by Threat mechanics. Please READ!

[lueckjathom]

What are you talking about? Having a combat log will indeed allow a greater degree of theory crafting, but I highly doubt you are going to see any real shift in spec/stat priority. Good dps always has and always will boil down to skill. Anyone can go to a forum, get in a cookie cutter spec and stack what they are told to stack. Playing mediocre has ZERO to do with min/maxing.

 

Apologies, I say "min/max" as a general idea of not only stacking appropriate stats, but also using the proper spec, rotation, and cooldowns along with executing them properly. There are many factors that lead to playing well, and many factors that lead to playing mediocre. The combat log points all of them out effectively.

[FINALBOSS]

I raided in WoW too...one thing I learned very quickly in SWTOR is that threat is handled very differently. Tanks can keep the boss on them at pretty much all times even when I'm going all-out.

[TheRealCrucifer]

I raided in WoW too...one thing I learned very quickly in SWTOR is that threat is handled very differently. Tanks can keep the boss on them at pretty much all times even when I'm going all-out.

 

Then you honestly aren't doing something right. Because I can rip a boss off of a tank in 3-4 seconds.

 

Currently I am not allowed to DPS for 5-10 seconds at the start of an encounter, I am not allowed to stack CDs, and I must have guard on me at all times.

 

Because if I don't I will cause wipes.

 

That is unacceptable raid/pve design.

Edited February 25, 2012 by TheRealCrucifer

[PhoenixMatrix]

I raided in WoW too...one thing I learned very quickly in SWTOR is that threat is handled very differently. Tanks can keep the boss on them at pretty much all times even when I'm going all-out.

 

Yup, this. It doesn't matter if you do 1 bazillion damage while burning out. Taunts in SWTOR brings the tank on top of the threat table no matter what, and for 6 seconds make the mobs attack them, again, no matter what.

 

So if you have 2 tanks in a 8 man, you have 6 x 2 taunts * 2 tanks so 24 seconds, if timed properly, where its impossible for a DPS to get hate. Assuming the tank is on top of the threat table before the "OMG CLICK ALL THE THINGS!" moment comes, they have a few seconds before they lose threat, too. And at the moment they taunt, they get bumped up to the top again. So assuming you don't mind the dps getting wacked once or twice (bosses really don't hit that hard except with special abilities), during those "hardcore OMGBBQ dps moments", you just wait for the boss to turn, taunt, wait, taunt, second tank wait, taunt, etc.

 

Holding threat is a trivial task in SWTOR, the boss may just turn around every now and then if the DPS are being stupid. And don't fool yourself: if all you're doing is a "perfect rotation" blindly without looking at whats happening to maximise your dps, you're not doing anything any little kid couldn't do. I could give a commando in rekata gear to my mom, tell her which buttons to push in which order, and which icons to look at, and she could "min-max her dps". Threat management, along with dodging boss special abilities (which ranged barely ever have to do except for dodging big red circles on the floor except against Soa where it gets a LITTLE more involved), are the only 2 things that separate a bad from a good. If you think your ability to memorize extremely simple rotations and having good gears make you "better than the next player", you're fooling yourself.

 

But threat management is ALMOST irrelevent in TOR, so really, being an "omg uber!" dps is something someone nearly brain dead could do. You will have to deal with bad tanks and healers, thats really the ONLY thing left to make you "good". Are you able to DPS when you have a bad tank?

 

There are a lot of MMOs out there with different mechanics from EQ or WoW clones. Threat management was VERY complicated in earlier iterations of FFXI. It was also quite misunderstood, and the few people who "got it" were being called out for being bad (then several years later all the numbers got crunched and the "bads" ended up being right). That was done, got this, without thread meters, too! Any DPS could pull threat from the bests of tanks if they wanted to. Everyone had to look at what the tank was doing, and timed everything just right. That took SOME skills (really, not all that much).

 

But the SWTOR way? No, sorry, you're not an amazing player because you pull big numbers. You can memorise a small rotation, you can look at cooldowns and click 3 buttons in a sequence to make big numbers appear, and if you're "really good!", you can slow down a bit if you realize your tank sucks, and dodge very obvious animations if you're doing Nightmare mode, or if your healer sucks.

 

Thats it, thats all.

[TheRealCrucifer]

And at the moment they taunt, they get bumped up to the top again. So assuming you don't mind the dps getting wacked once or twice (bosses really don't hit that hard except with special abilities),

 

You lost all creditability with that comment in that entire statement you just made....

 

Because if you ran even one nightmare boss you would know that if a DPS was to pull or even get hit once, he dies...and if its a boss like Karagga who lays down a fire patch outside of his pathing the raid wipes.

[roccorossi]

I think the OP is doing fine. He's doing what he's supposed to do.

 

I think his MT sucks balls if he can't maintain aggro throughout a fight.

 

 

Maybe in easy bunny tank mode WoW Produced...

 

But the way its always been before that is Main tank Jumps in Builds threat... DPS has more on their hands then button mashing as fast as possible... Manage it.. Its part of the game and keeps DPS'rs in check..

 

l2p Fool

[TheRealCrucifer]

On another note: For everyone who keeps saying my tank sucks...

 

He is one of the best Tanks in the world...hes played since EQ to now at higher levels than most of you could possibly ever wish to be at. He's seen many of his guild members under his tanking rank world wide in WoW.

 

He knows exactly how to play his class...this argument has nothing to do with him tanking.

 

It is entirely about the lack of threat management spells to manage someone hitting for 12-15K for 15 seconds every 1.5-2 seconds.

 

There again is no tank...i don't care from any guild in SWTOR who could manage that much output.

Edited February 25, 2012 by TheRealCrucifer

[Menisong]

On another note: For everyone who keeps saying my tank sucks...

 

He is one of the best Tanks in the world...hes played since EQ to now at higher levels than most of you could possibly ever wish to be at. He's seen many of his guild members under his tanking rank world wide in WoW.

 

He knows exactly how to play his class...this argument has nothing to do with him tanking.

 

It is entirely about the lack of threat management spells to manage someone hitting for 12-15K for 15 seconds every 1.5-2 seconds.

 

There again is no tank...i don't care from any guild in SWTOR who could manage that much output.

 

Haven't read many of the posts but have a question for you. Instead of giving you an ability like misdirection or feign death could they just put that "ability" on you? That as a dps in this game you cannot, under no circumstances just go balls to the walls dps? That the threat managment is you having to find the maximum dps rotation tanks can handle and not the maximum threat rotation possible?

Edited February 25, 2012 by Menisong

[TheRealCrucifer]

Haven't read many of the posts but have a question for you. Instead of giving you an ability like misdirection or feign death could they just put that "ability" on you? That as a dps in this game you cannot, under no circumstances just go balls to the walls dps? That the threat managment is you having to find the maximum dps rotation tanks can handle and not the maximum threat rotation possible?

 

that's what exists now...however then what separates me from john smith who just picked up his first MMO and is just mashing Grav Round/Tracer Missle?

 

Neither one of us is going to pull agro and yet he looks just as good at the game as me...because I have to settle for doing his rotation to maintain crap DPS so that I don't pull. And he just does crap rotation and doesn't pull.

[Menisong]

that's what exists now...however then what separates me from john smith who just picked up his first MMO and is just mashing Grav Round/Tracer Missle?

 

Neither one of us is going to pull agro and yet he looks just as good at the game as me...because I have to settle for doing his rotation to maintain crap DPS so that I don't pull. And he just does crap rotation and doesn't pull.

 

First. my personal opinion is Bioware, ATM is over their heads in this mmo. I wouldn't be surprised to log in one day and see threat and aggro turned upside down.

 

2. The exact same thing that made you great in wow. Everyone knew the best rotations, potions..etc YET the best dps consistently outperformed the rest. What will seperate you from joe blow in this game is similar to the same things that seperated you from him in wow. I suspect it is superior ability to dps while moving and minimizing your movement.

 

Also I suspect Joe Blow will likely pull aggro and die often.

Edited February 25, 2012 by Menisong

[erruanon]

So what you are saying is that in a burnfase you manage to pull of 15 k crits, i would like to know your gear because i cant even do 1/3 of your damage using tracer.The only boss you can pull those numbers are on fabricator when you burn him on the right side.Do dont make people think you do that all the time

[Jurugar]

that's what exists now...however then what separates me from john smith who just picked up his first MMO and is just mashing Grav Round/Tracer Missle?

 

Neither one of us is going to pull agro and yet he looks just as good at the game as me...because I have to settle for doing his rotation to maintain crap DPS so that I don't pull. And he just does crap rotation and doesn't pull.

 

If you wanted to distinguish yourself, roll a marauder or a shadow. You cant distinguish yourself while playing the easiest class - it's like calling yourself the world's best ret paladin.

 

Either you or your tank is doing something wrong. Are you starting right away, or waiting a little like you should be? If you're really pulling that often, have you asked for a guard? Or for a sage to pull you?

[MrCute]

I know misdirection and I know feign death since I am an uber hunter in WoW. Here in SWTOR, I an an Assassin and I have a FORCE CLOAK. It puts me out of combat and I believe it erases my threat. I think I am fine without Threatmeter mod.

 

I remember in one of the WoW fights where tank has to face the dragon away from the party so that its dragonbreath would not hit the party. I had my threatmeter silenced back then and I just went nuts with my DPS enabling all my cd's at the same time. I mistakenly exceeded my tank's threat and the dragon turned to me and threw out his breath to my direction. It killed half of our raid party. LOL. Since then, I never silenced my threatmeter again.

 

Since this game is missing combat logs and some features, I can blame the tank for his poor threat and get away with it even if it's my fault.. Who can tell who is right or wrong? I want combat logs to pinpoint who messes around in my raid.

[Sdeph]

Claiming that dps meters have anything to do with making a game "easymode" means that you just don't get it.

 

Having combatlogs does several things:

 

1) Allows you to review the reason you died. Was it a random background ability that killed you, did you pull for a split second, does the boss occasonally target a random person and kill them off? Many bugs have been discovered in other MMO's because things were killing people that weren't supposed to be killing people. If this happens in Swtor, you can only guess.

 

2) Allows you to review your own healing/damage rotation and min/max in order to take advantage of every gcd properly.

 

3) Allows you to determine who is pulling their weight with damage/healing. Some people don't like this. Those are the people who a) aren't pulling their own weight or b) like to make blanket judgements of others and not get called out on it. See below for explaination.

 

4) People will form judgements about you no matter what. Sages do X amount of dmg, or healing. We don't want scoundrals in our group because of X or Y reason. We believethat a certain spec/class does a job better than others because we read it on a forum post, or someone said so in a really convincing way.

 

With a combatlog/meter the people in point #4 can be proven wrong or right based on actual numbers. If I claim that a balance sage does more damage than a telekinetic sage I should be able to prove it. If a guild decides that they believe that sages shouldn't dps at all because they just can't keep up with sentinel dps....well then I guess I'm just screwed completely because I have nothing to prove them wrong with.

 

I honestly believe that most of the people that complain and say they don't want combatlogs in this game are people that like to bully others and push people around -- and not get called out or proven wrong. They want to say things like "guardians/maruaders do more dmg than x/y class so we shouldn't let this guy in...sorry guy", and unless you are great at debating you can't prove them wrong.

 

They like things to stay that way. Honestly its a moot point because the devs said before launch that they would eventually be allowing addons, and considering there is a damage/dps meter built into Warzones I think it is just a matter of time before we see one for PVE content.

 

/end wall-of-text

[Tygranir]

Claiming that dps meters have anything to do with making a game "easymode" means that you just don't get it.

 

Having combatlogs does several things:

 

1) Allows you to review the reason you died. Was it a random background ability that killed you, did you pull for a split second, does the boss occasonally target a random person and kill them off? Many bugs have been discovered in other MMO's because things were killing people that weren't supposed to be killing people. If this happens in Swtor, you can only guess.

 

2) Allows you to review your own healing/damage rotation and min/max in order to take advantage of every gcd properly.

 

3) Allows you to determine who is pulling their weight with damage/healing. Some people don't like this. Those are the people who a) aren't pulling their own weight or b) like to make blanket judgements of others and not get called out on it. See below for explaination.

 

4) People will form judgements about you no matter what. Sages do X amount of dmg, or healing. We don't want scoundrals in our group because of X or Y reason. We believethat a certain spec/class does a job better than others because we read it on a forum post, or someone said so in a really convincing way.

 

With a combatlog/meter the people in point #4 can be proven wrong or right based on actual numbers. If I claim that a balance sage does more damage than a telekinetic sage I should be able to prove it. If a guild decides that they believe that sages shouldn't dps at all because they just can't keep up with sentinel dps....well then I guess I'm just screwed completely because I have nothing to prove them wrong with.

 

I honestly believe that most of the people that complain and say they don't want combatlogs in this game are people that like to bully others and push people around -- and not get called out or proven wrong. They want to say things like "guardians/maruaders do more dmg than x/y class so we shouldn't let this guy in...sorry guy", and unless you are great at debating you can't prove them wrong.

 

They like things to stay that way. Honestly its a moot point because the devs said before launch that they would eventually be allowing addons, and considering there is a damage/dps meter built into Warzones I think it is just a matter of time before we see one for PVE content.

 

/end wall-of-text

 

All of this can be achieved by paying attention to what is going on. No, really, it can be. You know what stats you need to maximize the way you play. Maximize those. If you are getting hurt and you are not the tank, look at what is hitting you and why. Don't need recount to show me that.

 

This is a l2p issue, not a game issue.

[Perkunas]

All of this can be achieved by paying attention to what is going on. No, really, it can be. You know what stats you need to maximize the way you play. Maximize those. If you are getting hurt and you are not the tank, look at what is hitting you and why. Don't need recount to show me that.

 

This is a l2p issue, not a game issue.

 

Attempts to counter intelligent post by saying shut up and learn to play... The TOR forums have gotten worse since release. It's so disheartening to see that this community is becoming the laughing stock of the MMO genre. "Oh? You don't want to actually have to try to complete the PVE content? Why don't you go play TOR!"

[Wattser]

Then you honestly aren't doing something right. Because I can rip a boss off of a tank in 3-4 seconds.

 

Currently I am not allowed to DPS for 5-10 seconds at the start of an encounter, I am not allowed to stack CDs, and I must have guard on me at all times.

 

Because if I don't I will cause wipes.

 

That is unacceptable raid/pve design.

 

This gave me a good laugh.

[TheRealCrucifer]

All of this can be achieved by paying attention to what is going on. No, really, it can be. You know what stats you need to maximize the way you play. Maximize those. If you are getting hurt and you are not the tank, look at what is hitting you and why. Don't need recount to show me that.

 

This is a l2p issue, not a game issue.

 

I'm pretty positive i know how to play MMOs. But I am willing to pay you for lessons if you feel like you have something insightful to teach me.

[Grahfh]

I am going to state upfront that I used to play WoW, SHOCKER I know....I was a Hunter who used to rank on Heroic content for Damage Per Second (DPS). I am currently playing a Commando Trooper....and here is my issue:

 

The reason I could rank on DPS was because there were 2 very necessary threat spells in place for Hunters...one was Feign Death...which would drop threat entirely back to 0. (Sort of like how diversion should work).

 

The other is my main problem atm with SWTOR....Misdirection....

 

For those who don't know what Misdirection does: Is you cast the spell on a tank and all threat generated for 4 seconds. Meaning that at the start of a fight you could top load a tank in threat so no one else could pull agro off of him but also allow you to go insane DPS and at the point where Misdirection faded and the DPS would top-end you could drop threat entirely with Feign Death and then from that point on you should never ever be able to pull threat again unless the boss had a Threat Reset ability in which you would just cast Misdirection again.

 

This means that I could go into my full DPS rotation at the speed I chose and the spell usage I chose to without being hindered by the game.

 

However because SWTOR has no combat log, threat meter, dps meter...I can not gauge my output and Diversion only dropping a small % of threat is not doing enough when I am trying to maximize my DPS output...

 

My current issue is this: In burn phases or openings...when we get called for CDs to be popped...I have to actually stagger my CDs instead of top-loading them.

 

Example:

 

I use the Relic of Power +380

and

The Exotech Attack Adrenals for +585 power.

 

If I dared combine the two and push close to 1500 top-end Damage and 850+ bonus damage...in less than 1-2 Grav Rounds I'd have agro because there is no Misdirection I can use to send that massive amount of threat I'd be generating for 15 seconds to the Tanks.

 

Meaning I am stuck doing what I consider "mediocre" DPS compared to what I could be doing in raids.

 

 

What I am proposing is a spell given to Bounty Hunters and Troopers that acts like Misdirection:

 

Misdirection

100 yd range

30 sec cooldown

The current party or raid member targeted will receive the threat caused by your next damaging attack and all actions taken for 15 sec afterwards. Transferred threat is not permanent, and will fade after 30 sec.

 

Now I am choosing to bump the "time" portion from 4 to 15 seconds to be in line with the standard Relic/Adrenal time lapse for that bonus damage. This would allow world class DPSers to actually be able to do what they do best without costing a wipe.

 

I'd also like to propose Diversion be a complete threat drop...not a %. Make the CD longer like 2 minutes. And have it drop threat entirely back to 0.

 

I didn't read much of anything aside from first post.

 

Tank taunt = top of threat meter & mob forced to attack tank for 6s, all tanks have two, 15s and 45s CD.

DPS threat drop = unsure if it drops you to 0, but it is significant, 45s CD

 

With that said I have been doing 16man NMM runs for the past several weeks as a BH tank, threat isn't an issue ever on a boss fight where you can taunt.

 

Even stacking mercs with buggy stacked tracer missiles enabling them to crit with heat seeker for over 10k easily and threat is never an issue.

 

If you are pulling threat on a single tank target, it doesn't mean you're good, it means your tank is bad. You should be able to go balls to the wall on anything tankable and the tank not lose aggro.

 

(TANKS)Literally regardless of gear if you do this you will never lose aggro on a single target:

- open with 15s taunt

- after 6-7s use the AOE taunt

- when 15s taunt is back up use it again.

- call for DPS to aggro drop.

at this point use the two taunts as they come off CD and you should never lose aggro (obviously DPSing your heart out in between but there is only so much a tank can do)

[Grahfh]

I'm sorry but this is shenanigans, and so is your guild if they call for you to not DPS for 5-10 seconds lol...

 

taunt = threat override, tank is at the top. This game is easymode tanking

 

literally if your tank doesn't suck balls there is a 18 second window at the start of a fight where NO ONE can pull threat off the tank even if you crit the boss for half of his health pool.

 

After this 18 second window, use aggro drop and continue DPSing. If the tank continues to taunt you cant pull aggro.

 

I don't doubt you have uber stats but I am positive I have many in my guild with the same gear, assuming you have BIS, with BIS mods.

 

With all this said I conclude you need a better tank, one that can properly rotate his two threat abilities.

[GuardianDW]

I am a SW Juggernaut raid tank, and a IA Sniper raid dps for my guild. If your guild is unable to manage threat in raid encounters without crutches like total agro drops and misdirects, they are fail. Period.

 

First of all, pay attention. Second, ranged dps has the same 30% threat buffer in SWTOR they did in WOW (meaning, ranged players have to exceed the tank's threat by 30% before pulling agro). Third, almost every encounter should start with a 5-10 second threat buffer; where the raid does light dps to allow the tank to build a threat buffer.

 

And fourth, there are multiple tools for managing threat in SWTOR raid encounters. Some classes have agro drops (my sniper does, and classes with stealth vanish do as well). SI/JC have force pull, with is a threat drop on the pulled player. Finally, the tank has taunt, which works quite well as a 'reverse' misdirect if you wish to think of it like that. Specifically, SWTOR Taunt puts the tank equal to the top threat number on the taunt target, and locks that target on the tank for 6sec.

 

As a tank, if I have an overeager or inattentive dps who's pulled on a raid target, I have the tools to at least partially mitigate the situation. But SWTOR threat is balanced more like WOW's Burning Crusade threat than the faceroll LOTK/CATA threat. In BC, if a dps wanted threat, they had it. If they were insistent on going full out, they were tanking it. Period. SWTOR is like that.

 

SWTOR dps' job is to know when to burst and when to not. That said, it is the tank's job to know how to roll their heaviest threat attacks in a rotation to maximize their role as the tank. SWTOR tanking is not E-Z mode late-expansion WOW style tanking. Tanks have have to have the skill, same as SWTOR dps has to also have skill. And that skill means more than "this is my maximum rotation and all I have to learn is that". SWTOR grouping is a *group* skill requiring all players to know how to manage the encounter. It is not E-Z mode where the healer and dpsers switch off and rely on the tank to correct all their mistakes and bad play.

 

Unfortunately for SWTOR, WOW's biggest growth phases came during E-Z mode LOTK and CATA, where the tank was all but guaranteed threat by the design. This has rendered a lot of players used to E-Z mode, and unable to pay attention to an encounter.

 

To specifically address the OP's complaints about being unable to max out their cooldowns in burn phases, my guild does not have the threat issues he's describing. When we burst on Annihilation or Fabricator droids, SOA, or Jarg/Sorno, our groups keep threat on the tanks. And to be very specific, when we burst on those, when I'm in there on my sniper and I burst, I pop relic + lase target + Rakatta Attack adrenal + 20% Alacrity boost. This happens two seconds before the bust phase opens. Orbital strike will be triggered, followed by Ambush, Followup, Takedown, Overload, Series of Shots, single grenade, Snipe, then back to Ambush. During that period, just about every pulse of damage I output is hitting for between 3K-4K minimum, and Orbital is overlapping with the other attacks. During the fight, I have been agro dropping regularly, and the tank has been rolling max threat, and none of us pull agro.

 

When I'm tanking those same targets, I open with Throw, Leap, Smash, Sunder, Retallation, Crushing Blow. These abilities (minus throw/leap) are rolled as often as possible. If my mob turns early, I actually welcome it. I then single taunt, Backhand, Force Choke, and return to my rotation. The taunt evens me to the top of the threat table, and Backhand/Choke are extremely high threat attacks. We actually have our other sniper, and our sorcerers, go full out for seconds 5-20 of the fight for this reason, and they agro drop when they see the mob turn then turn back to me. At that point, I have a large threat buffer.

 

SWTOR is tuned fine for pve. Skill is back in session.

 

Bottom line, L2P.

 

ps: our guild is server firsts for 16m NM EV and NM KP, and 8m NM KP, including the timed 8m NM KP run. The only reason our raids aren't utterly full Rakatta on each player is we're cycling in alts and a few new folks to gear them. The above examples I give are not happening in 8m normal mode operations.

 

pps: any tank, especially a raid tank, that has taunt in their regular raid tanking rotation (absent specific fights like Foreman Crusher who agro changes after each frenzy phase), is a bad. When I say their regular rotation, I mean they're regularly triggering taunt throughout the fight. That shouldn't be happening. It shouldn't have to happen. The tank should have a high threat rotation, and the group should be managing the fight with the tank, not against the tank).

Edited February 25, 2012 by GuardianDW

[Jamuro]

I was dps specced ( am healer now) but i loved that you had to be a bit carefull at the start of a fight with pulling agro.

 

It adds at least a bit of complexitivity ... and let's be honest, the game as it is is already way to trivial.

There is with the content right now, realy no need for changes on the thread system ... just use your brain a bit, insteat of blindly smashing all your buttons.

[nexusbob]

Wouldn't work -> you are talking 15 seconds of 12-15K crits non-stop. No tank in this game has that type of threat sustain. Thats why misdirection was so important in WoW.

 

And I'm not talking about management but a hindrance to true DPSers. Could I be doing a hell of a lot more dps? Yes. Would that speed up kills? Yes. Is there a Title for both NiM dungeons for speed kills? Yes.

 

So there is an intention for BioWare to want people to DPS fast. But there is a mechanic missing from the game to allow it. As stated above.

 

gone call u -BS- - no class in thes game make 12k-15k crits at all - so on less u got a foto or ar movie ther show it u BS - not goen belive u - or u cheat

[jaakkeli]

Without any way to gauge aggro level (doesn't need to be an addon, doesn't need to be a meter), you can't tell a DPS to watch their aggro. How would they watch it since there's no way to watch it? It removes the skill element of hovering below the tank's aggro to maximize your damage without pulling and replaces it with a simple rule of "wait x seconds and then start smashing your rotation" that any trained monkey could follow.

 

The aggro cooldowns in game require exactly 0 skill from players. You just push the aggro reduction button whenever it comes off cooldown, what room is there for skill in that? None whatsoever. DPSing in this game is an absolutely zero skill position where you just mash your buttons and you're never responsible for anything. There's no aggro meter so you can't even be blamed for pulling aggro (how exactly could you know you were close to pulling? there's no way to tell! so just mash your buttons).

 

For a thought experiment, let's say there was no way to tell whether you're standing in fire. Would that add an element of skill to the game? Hell no. It would just make the game attractive to the scrubs who can't avoid dying in fire in other games. The forums would be full of scrubs screaming "I'm HAPPY there is no way to tell if you're standing in fire, now there's no difference between me and those ELITIST JERKS who avoid the fires!"

 

The same way we now have a lot of people who didn't have the skill to use an aggro meter properly happy that others can't use them to outskill them (and really, it's such a minimal level of skill that it's pathetic how some people still can't use them).

Edited February 27, 2012 by Trineda
removed inflammatory comment

[PhoenixMatrix]

You lost all creditability with that comment in that entire statement you just made....

 

Because if you ran even one nightmare boss you would know that if a DPS was to pull or even get hit once, he dies...and if its a boss like Karagga who lays down a fire patch outside of his pathing the raid wipes.

 

Still doesn't change that using taunt puts your tank on the top of the threat list even if you did 1 billion damage a hit, so they can always keep threat from you if you coordinate properly.

 

That said, nightmare mode bosses just don't hit that much harder. Between that, bosses that go all over the place (first boss of KP), threat resets, the fact a boss will finish their attack animation even if you taunt them (so even if after a threat reset the offtank is 100% perfect on immediately taunting, there's a chance someone will get smacked), and attacks that will simply go for non-tanks (lightning balls in Soa), I'm quite happy you are wrong.

 

In the end, aside for a few talented abilities, defense and shield, when tanks are off cooldown they get smacked for a few douzan percent less than a DPS would. If a normal attack would smack a DPS for 20 thousand damage everytime, even a tank wouldnt last long through that. The irony is that one of the bosses that CAN one shot a DPS for 22-25k+ damage (rarely, but it happens) is the rancor, and he's one of the bosses that can't be controlled 100% of the time and is immune to taunts.

 

Btw, as for karaggas, are you sure your group isn't terrible? Sure, derping on a spill puts people in a dicey situation, but its definately not an auto-wipe, even on nightmare. Still interested in videos of this amazing 12k+ 15 second sustained grav round spamming though. Sounds like even if half your DPS got smacked "1 time each", you'd still be able to beat the enrage timer

Edited February 25, 2012 by PhoenixMatrix