westraz Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I think the hate with KT come with her being so mad about not getting her way with the mando's, in the clone wars, and then turning around and saying but I can do anything with Jade.. just saying that seems more then a bit wrong... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
priest Posted March 6, 2012 Author Share Posted March 6, 2012 I think the hate with KT come with her being so mad about not getting her way with the mando's, in the clone wars, and then turning around and saying but I can do anything with Jade.. just saying that seems more then a bit wrong... I agree completely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Zone Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Ok, haven't read all the posts here, so I can't tell if anyone has said it yet... I heard about the death of Mara Jade and wondered if Karen Travis went to the same writing school as Stephanie Meyer. BOTH are, imo and in Stephen King's opinion, horrible writers. There. I said it, and I'm glad I said it. -bows and exits- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikModi Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 I think the hate with KT come with her being so mad about not getting her way with the mando's, in the clone wars, and then turning around and saying but I can do anything with Jade.. just saying that seems more then a bit wrong... Well, Legacy of the Force came out well before the Clone Wars and the retcon of Mandalore, so that's not even an excuse. Karen Traviss is just a poor writer and a questionable person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
priest Posted March 6, 2012 Author Share Posted March 6, 2012 Ok, haven't read all the posts here, so I can't tell if anyone has said it yet... I heard about the death of Mara Jade and wondered if Karen Travis went to the same writing school as Stephanie Meyer. BOTH are, imo and in Stephen King's opinion, horrible writers. There. I said it, and I'm glad I said it. -bows and exits- Interesting. I'm wondering if Karen Traviss' was LucasArts' attempt at trying to appeal to the Female demographic. Traviss tends to focus on the whole 'emo' thing; how people feel, the emotional turmoil, internal struggle between desire, duty, loyalty. She fleshes her character's emotional template out. I give her credit: She's good at it. But it seems that she has taken the bright shiny heroes, and rolled them with 'reality goggles' making them more human. Again, I understand the reasoning, the 'real man' connecting to the characters, being able to identify, blah, blah, blah. I'd much rather have the straight forward, simple HERO story of the early EU, then this new, artsy Classical mythology redeux. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayla_Felana Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 (edited) I completely agree. It was a stupid death. Reading this interview just made me mad all over again. Seriously Karen, YOU didn't create the character, and you just decided to off her...without any real imput from Timothy Zahn. I hated it when Chewbacca was killed off. I didn't understand why they killed Anakin (that was a dolt move too,) and Mara? Makes me want to burn all my EU books. This is why Karen Traviss destroyed post ROTJ EU canon: She inserted herself in Jaina's boots so she could fangirl all night long about the Mandalorians and how much more superior they were in comparison to force users, even though they got absolutely annihilated at the hands of Revan, Surik and Alek around 4,000 years earlier. Made Boba Fett look like an egotistical *****, when he should have been left the way he was. She never even bothered to do her research on Star Wars lore, before her books, Jaina is an extremely skilled pilot, one of the best in the galaxy, her books come along and she couldn't ride a bike, what the hell? Oh and don't leave out the fact she wanted to use Alderaan as a place in her books, you know those books that took place decades after it was blown into space dust in ANH? Edited March 6, 2012 by Rayla_Felana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemmingLeader Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Killing well liked, widely known characters is just a way to make an important statement with some terrible series of books. And Chewie's was the absolute worst one. There's several reasons why I've stopped reading EU stuff, and that was long before Mara and Chewie's demise. But these 2 events justify it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faefrost Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Killing well liked, widely known characters is just a way to make an important statement with some terrible series of books. And Chewie's was the absolute worst one. There's several reasons why I've stopped reading EU stuff, and that was long before Mara and Chewie's demise. But these 2 events justify it. THIS! Not just in the EU, but it has become such a modern writing crutch in SciFi (and even worse in comic books) to kill off characters in order to create a completely fake sense of drama. They have been replacing writing with spectacle. And it's just cheesy. It's like the entire modern pool of SF writers is rabidly mimicing the Game of Thrones series ability to throw away major characters, but lacks the actual skills to be able to do so without ticking the readers off.m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikModi Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I don't mind killing off characters. When you know that the good guys will always win and everything will be hunky-dory status quo by the end of the story, that kills any sense of drama. Drama comes from conflict, and conflict is meaningless if the outcome has been decided in advance. It's killing characters off in lazy ways or for no reason that pisses me off. Chewie died to cement the fact that the NJO was not a "safe" series, that things were going to change permanently. I liked that. Killing Mara was just a cheap way of making Jacen Solo cross the Moral Event Horizon, something which could have been done in any number of other ways. Too top it off, it was done in a book series that probably shouldn't have been written in the first place. Things were finally looking up in the Star Wars universe after the NJO. Surely, there could have been stories that didn't involve the galaxy as we know it in jeopardy? There has to be a happy medium between "Oh, God, we're all totally SCREWED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" and "Absolutely nothing's going on, check back next year." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MustrumRidcully Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I think the error they made was trying to use the same characters forever. There is no reason to keep Luke, Chewie or Mara for 5 decades or so. Let someone else solve the troubles of the galaxy for a while. They can't always be the first to the scene, so to speak. I think that is something that bothers me most - these people had their heroic adventures. They have earned a rest. Re-using them all the time devalues their past achievements. Killing them in the middle of the next crisis they are part of just is a dissatisfying end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Zone Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Well, as far as killing off movie characters in the ExU books after, Crix Madine was the first I saw die (Darksaber). It caught me a bit off guard, and he did die a fairly useless death for a spymaster. His infiltration team was caught with their pants down. These things happen. His death didn't tick me off as much as Mara. As for Chewie, he went out as only Chewie could, and R.A. Salvatore did the ol' Wook justice, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarSquirrel Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) It was kind of a stupid death too, imo. Made Mara out to be waaaay stupider than we all know she was. I disagree. I feel it showed an emotional side of her that we always knew and loved. It is fitting no one could really kill her in a true fight but rather she was murdered via an assassin's tool and a trick (ironic considering she was an assassin at one point). The real tragedy is that Jacen had to do it and even he didn't get to live. The kind of guilt he would have had, had he been converted back, would have made for a very interesting character. I loved them both though and though that if someone would kill mara, it is best it was Jacen and not that evil sith wannabe chick. Mara vs Vestara would be interesting to... Edited March 8, 2012 by StarSquirrel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roccobb Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I remember the first time I read the first book of NJO. I was actually stunned and upset they killed Chewie. I had to re-read the part a couple times for it to sink in that he was really dead. By the time MJ died, although I was stunned, I didn't really feel the death. She was one of my favorite characters, and it was just like, oh yeah, she died. Fate of the Jedi nobody major has died yet that I can think of. The new and last book comes out soon, and we will see who dies. As for the same characters doing the saving, I kind of agree. Luke is the Grand Master. With the force, no, he can't live forever. But he can live longer and be stronger than we can. I have no doubt that at 60 or so he is still in great shape. And as the grand master, he would have his hands in galactic affairs. Han Solo, I don't see as being able to do as much as he can at his age. He is old. He does not have the force to support him. I can see very soon him dying a heroic death. Han Solo dying of old age just doesn't cut it for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MustrumRidcully Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I remember the first time I read the first book of NJO. I was actually stunned and upset they killed Chewie. I had to re-read the part a couple times for it to sink in that he was really dead. By the time MJ died, although I was stunned, I didn't really feel the death. She was one of my favorite characters, and it was just like, oh yeah, she died. Fate of the Jedi nobody major has died yet that I can think of. The new and last book comes out soon, and we will see who dies. As for the same characters doing the saving, I kind of agree. Luke is the Grand Master. With the force, no, he can't live forever. But he can live longer and be stronger than we can. I have no doubt that at 60 or so he is still in great shape. And as the grand master, he would have his hands in galactic affairs. He is the grand master and has to teach his Jedi. He has to predict the future and prepare the order for a time without him. I think there is every reason to see him in more of a mentor and administrator role than an active combattant. If his force visions let him see a issue where he must intervene himself because he is the only one strong enough, then he can. But not all the time. Han Solo, I don't see as being able to do as much as he can at his age. He is old. He does not have the force to support him. I can see very soon him dying a heroic death. Han Solo dying of old age just doesn't cut it for me. Han Solo can as well turn into a more political or administrative goal. Use his network of friends and allies, similar to how Karrde does. Since he has kids, I may be okay with a heroic death eventually, but why not live his life happily together with Leia? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatherOblivion Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I can't agree with Zahn's assessment that Star Wars characters ought to have the shield of invulnerability around them. It hasn't made the novels any worse for the wear with so many major character deaths (although I agree with the general mood that Mara Jade's death was poorly executed). He argues that the films support the idea but what I think he misses is how contrived Return of the Jedi is for forcing that outcome (yes I'm ripping the films, I know it's not winning me too many fans). The whole film seems to be jumping through hoops to give us the ultra-heroic/mega happy ending when the previous films never implied such a thing was inevitable. In fact, the set up of the first two films indicated a much darker ending and the insistence by Lucas on this new direction, in addition to a few other factors, eventually led to Gary Kurtz' sad departure from the saga. His absence is rather obvious when one looks at the stark quality difference between Jedi and Empire. So for all my admiration of Zahn, I can't see his point. I like his books; in fact, I rate Outbound Flight as the very best of all EU novels (I've read over 60 of them, but not all of them). But if his formula were always applied then the Expanded Universe of Star Wars would be a cold, sterile, lifeless saccharine void. It already suffers from the main three stifling the growth of the next generation of characters. It would only be worse if nobody important could be killed off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aximand Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I disagree. I feel it showed an emotional side of her that we always knew and loved. It is fitting no one could really kill her in a true fight but rather she was murdered via an assassin's tool and a trick (ironic considering she was an assassin at one point). The real tragedy is that Jacen had to do it and even he didn't get to live. The kind of guilt he would have had, had he been converted back, would have made for a very interesting character. I loved them both though and though that if someone would kill mara, it is best it was Jacen and not that evil sith wannabe chick. Mara vs Vestara would be interesting to... No, she was pretty freaking stupid in that series as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
priest Posted March 14, 2012 Author Share Posted March 14, 2012 I can't agree with Zahn's assessment that Star Wars characters ought to have the shield of invulnerability around them. It hasn't made the novels any worse for the wear with so many major character deaths (although I agree with the general mood that Mara Jade's death was poorly executed). He argues that the films support the idea but what I think he misses is how contrived Return of the Jedi is for forcing that outcome (yes I'm ripping the films, I know it's not winning me too many fans). The whole film seems to be jumping through hoops to give us the ultra-heroic/mega happy ending when the previous films never implied such a thing was inevitable. In fact, the set up of the first two films indicated a much darker ending and the insistence by Lucas on this new direction, in addition to a few other factors, eventually led to Gary Kurtz' sad departure from the saga. His absence is rather obvious when one looks at the stark quality difference between Jedi and Empire. So for all my admiration of Zahn, I can't see his point. I like his books; in fact, I rate Outbound Flight as the very best of all EU novels (I've read over 60 of them, but not all of them). But if his formula were always applied then the Expanded Universe of Star Wars would be a cold, sterile, lifeless saccharine void. It already suffers from the main three stifling the growth of the next generation of characters. It would only be worse if nobody important could be killed off. I understand what you're saying; however there are many good stories where the heroes don't die; and so I agree with Zahn's assessment. I think that the overly heroic, looking at the world through rose colored glasses is what strummed the collective awesome chord in the Star Wars generation. It is representative of the naivete of youth and so it is easy to relate to. I'm looking for blasters and lightsabers, good guys and bad guys. The story loses its charm when you take it to the darker, more serious places. As I've said before, I don't mind those places, I think that they should be explored; but I believe that Star Wars, in its purest sense, is a space-western where the good guy ALWAYS rides into the sunset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ybini Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Killing her....who really thought that was a good idea? And Chewy? I don't care how much I like him as a writer, that was just bunk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annedromeda Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 I haven't read that particular series, but I am the 5th book into Fate of the Jedi, which I am enjoying an awful lot. In my opinion, I think even if we feel that we are "close" to fictional characters, it is important to kill them in literature (if they aren't immortal that is). In one way, it can sub-consciously remind us of our own mortality, and as some have said before, even heroes die too. Death often opens arenas in literature that would have otherwise not been open. It is a natural part of life everywhere, and should exist in books too. I'm not going to debate on the quality of writing or the supposed personality defects of said writers, as I haven't met any of them. All I know is that I enjoy reading, and whatever comes with the roller-coaster ride that is that book, death and all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Zone Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 IMO, Karen Travis is a stain on Star Wars, and if they can figure out a way to say "This never happened due to the sheer insanity of the author and the fact that she's a total *****, we're bringing Mara back!" That would be cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtyv Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Killing her....who really thought that was a good idea? Prob not the same dude that decided to kill Chewie lol Actually they killed off just about everybody I liked..... I havnt read the latest series... but hopefully they are keeping the last few original folks around and one of my fav, Master Saba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Zone Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 (edited) Prob not the same dude that decided to kill Chewie lol Actually they killed off just about everybody I liked..... I havnt read the latest series... but hopefully they are keeping the last few original folks around and one of my fav, Master Saba Well, by the time A Dance With Dragons came out, George R.R. Martin had killed off nearly EVERY character I liked in that series. Related to this thread because of everyone talking about characters dying. Watch the HBO series "Game of Thrones" and you'll see what I mean. Edited March 15, 2012 by Captain_Zone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aximand Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Well, by the time A Dance With Dragons came out, George R.R. Martin had killed off nearly EVERY character I liked in that series. Related to this thread because of everyone talking about characters dying. Watch the HBO series "Game of Thrones" and you'll see what I mean. Or you could read the book series "Game of Thrones" and get the story as it was meant to be told by the author. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Zone Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Or you could read the book series "Game of Thrones" and get the story as it was meant to be told by the author. Very true. I did referrence A Dance With Dragons, didn't I? For those interested in the book series, A Game of Thrones. A Clash of Kings. A Storm of Swords. A Feast for Crows. A Dance With Dragons. Those are the books so far. Pretty much all the main characters that I liked in the first and second books are dead by the time Dance came out. lol Still reading the blasted books, though. Just to see how it all turns out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBentOne Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 (edited) IMO, Karen Travis is a stain on Star Wars, and if they can figure out a way to say "This never happened due to the sheer insanity of the author and the fact that she's a total *****, we're bringing Mara back!" That would be cool. I think everyone has a good reason to hate Travis, for me its her horrendous butchering of Boba Fett and her killing off of my all time favorite EU charecter:Admiral Gilad Pellaeon (Im still waiting for Tahri to get her just deserts, sadly its looking like that is never going to happen. I DEMAND JUSTICE!!). While i appreaciate that she tryed to push the EU away from the current Jedi are the be all end all of star wars thing thats been going on for the past few years she did it all wrong, by trying to turn the already sufficently awsome Madalorians into some kind of OP gods. and conviceing herself that the jedi are actually the villians. Oh, and that whole butchering the charecter of ever jedi she has ever writtten thing. (see the new novel Shadow Games for how to do this kind of thing right, or better yet the old X-wing sereis) Edit: fixed some spelling and grammar issues. Its probably still not perfect but oh well. Edited March 15, 2012 by TheBentOne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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