Same gender relationships clarifications?

[emusan]

I'm not arguing that point, certainly. I'm just saying we don't know, and to assume the worst isn't necessarily helpful.

 

I'm sure many here agree, this is just the initial panic and such... Hopefully bioware will make some kind of statement soon as to why exactly all of this stuff was removed...

[darthlevantine]

Out of curiosity, why are we buried here in the "Story and Lore" forum? I always thought that was a bit weird. Does anyone know the answer?

 

EDIT: If we are only allowed to have one thread in which to make any suggestions regarding same-gender content, maybe we could ask for this last remaining thread to be moved to the Suggestions forum?

 

I wonder..

 

If one was to make a new thread about moving another thread that is about same gender related things to another place, would THAT thread also be closed and redirected to here?

[Xeres_Ajani]

Perhaps they want to keep the suggestion box "gay free" to avoid "Anti-Gay" spammers?

[Nozybidaj]

Perhaps they want to keep the suggestion box "gay free" to avoid "Anti-Gay" spammers?

 

"Gay free" forum to go along with the "gay free" game. Like I said, consistent.

[Uluain]

Again, I understand this is worrying. I'm worried too. But I still suggest everyone settle down for the moment and see how this pans out. We don't know the reasoning behind this moderation decision and dreading the worst might be needless. It might not, true, but it might.

 

I have requested clarification through appropriate channels from those in a position to provide it. I would like to remind everyone that the forums are not the place to discuss thread closures or deletion.

 

For now, we have redirects to this thread. Let's see where things go from here.

 

EDIT - 12:00 AM CST:

 

My communication on the subject has been received, replied to and escalated for considerations by those higher up the ladder. Let's talk about other things now, please.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Uluain

[Awakaa]

I hope in the future they open up new romance options with current companions that aren't romancable atm. I want me some sexy Gault action for my BH.

[mrcaptainpants]

I'd like a romance-able ewok companion.

 

I promise I won't do anything naughty.

 

I just wanna cuddle it.

[Galius]

So as I thought, still no real reason other than hurt feelings over perceived slights against selecting a gender and orientation during character creation.

 

And no, using examples like violence or slavery are just red herrings... not what we are talking about.

[Wispr]

I hope in the future they open up new romance options with current companions that aren't romancable atm. I want me some sexy Gault action for my BH.

 

 

I'm with you on that! Well as far as them opening up new romance options for our current companions. Though for my Sith Inquisitor, she's got her eyes on Ashara...

[Kioma]

So as I thought, still no real reason other than hurt feelings over perceived slights against selecting a gender and orientation during character creation.

 

And no, using examples like violence or slavery are just red herrings... not what we are talking about.

 

It's mechanically unnecessary. I've stated that many times before. Just don't choose same sex flirts. It's not rocket science.

[EvanSnowWolf]

So.. question..

 

If the logic a few pages ago was that the Toggle suggestion is dead on the ground that they closed the thread... that means the same sex Flirt suggestion is also dead, right?

[Kioma]

So.. question..

 

If the logic a few pages ago was that the Toggle suggestion is dead on the ground that they closed the thread... that means the same sex Flirt suggestion is also dead, right?

 

I personally never agreed with that summation.

[Kioma]

Thanks. For what its worth I opened up a suggestion thread for them to re-open it, please feel free to sign it in the hope that we can keep our respective conversations more focused.

 

Signed, and good luck. Frankly I think it'll just get closed again, but good luck nonetheless.

[ZenMondo]

Now that this in not only the Same Gender Relationships clarification thread where we ask pretty please for Bioware to give us any detail about what was promised back in September. This now the the same gender NPC flirt thread and the forum thread for discussion of the mother of all bad ideas the no gays toggle.

 

I have spent hours familiarizing myself with all these thread that are now coalesced here and I have some meta observations from general directions I have seen the conversations go.

 

On theme I have seen brought up again and again is that the heterosexual orientation is the majority and the inclusion of non-straight flirting is pandering to a minority.

 

Now being part of a majority does give one certain privileges. Dictating that all concessions go to the majority is NOT one of them. Protection of Minority interests is a pillar of a free society. A statistical majority does not correlate to being correct. Most people think the 21st century began January 1, 2000. The fact that it began one year later is the truth regardless of majority opinion.

 

Another argument I see is the lack of non-straight characters in canon. Star Wars Canon is a tricky critter with different "levels" of Canon, but all but N-Canon IS part of one cohesive continuity. Some will say "G-Canon" only blithely ignoring that both novels and games are part of C-canon including this game. But say just for the sake of argument we DID only go by the examples of G-Canon for relationships. By that logic we should all have a romancible sibling companion. Now it was never said explicitly that in the GFFA incest was acceptable perhaps like ancient Egypt but we do know that Leia "always knew" according to her dialog in Return of the Jedi so when she deep-kissed Luke on Hoth to make Han jealous she knew she was kissing her brother.

 

But this game is C-canon and in C-canon There is example of loving homosexual relationships. Karen Traviss introdced the characters Goran Beviin and Medrit Vasu as being married.

 

In her own words

 

The gay Mandos - like the rest of the Mandalorian cast - are in the series because I think the Star Wars galaxy, with millions of worlds and species, is probably more diverse than just a regular vanilla diet of straight, good-looking, able-bodied white folk with red hair and emerald eyes or whatever. So I decided it was time SW had its first gay characters, because it was dumb for such a rich universe like that to be so narrow and unreal.

[Comfterbilly]

Signed, and good luck. Frankly I think it'll just get closed again, but good luck nonetheless.

 

Thanks. My only response to jamming disagreers together like this is that, considering that the inclusion of SGRA's is an act of embrace and acceptance, its not a good sign that Swtor form mods are so hostile to those who want to discuss it. I'll be glad when they include it too, I just hope they have a toggle. If they want to strong-arm us, suppress us and give us no voice, well life is too short for that kind of game.

[mrcaptainpants]

Thanks. My only response to jamming disagreers together like this is that, considering that the inclusion of SGRA's is an act of embrace and acceptance, its not a good sign that Swtor form mods are so hostile to those who want to discuss it.

 

I'm sure this doesn't make you feel any better, but having any and all threads even vaguely related to same-gender issues all ghetto-ized into one thread buried in the "Story and Lore" forum while other threads on different yet similar themes are being locked down doesn't make me feel particularly loved by Bioware, either.

[Comfterbilly]

I'm sure this doesn't make you feel any better, but having any and all threads even vaguely related to same-gender issues all ghetto-ized into one thread buried in the "Story and Lore" forum while other threads on different yet similar themes are being locked down doesn't make me feel particularly loved by Bioware, either.

 

Sure it makes me feel better. I really liked yours, Kioma and GenoAmi's comments on the thread, I don't think I'm going to be continuing the conversation much if they don't reverse that decision but in the mean time I've by all means found that you and those mentioned as well as Rackj. are my favorite debaters on the forum so far.

 

I'm actually quite amicable. For all the flame-throwers who accused otherwise, in my personal life I'm beyond tolerant, in fact we'll not discuss that. Anti's wanted to make it out like it was something against the LGBT community... For most of us its just: this economy sucks, Swtor is our safehaven, and we're hoping for a reasonable amount of insulation from the Grece-like maelstrom going on all around us. I would say, "I just want a level of immersion that does not force the r/l arguments into my fortress of solitude," but I don't feel much like talking about it for a while.

 

Sadly I was just about to go in and edit the OP to condense the best arguments from everyone who posted. Se la vie lol.

[Kioma]

doesn't make me feel particularly loved by Bioware, either.

 

I think that's a huge shame, and it's something I've been thinking about a lot recently.

 

I've been gaming in many forms for a number of years now, as many of us have; that 'a number of years' is, for me, a matter of roughly two decades is a matter I don't care to think about too much. I've seen the products of many different companies. I've seen companies rise and fall (Bullfrog Productions, for example - many of you might remember Dungeon Keeper but are you venerable enough to remember Feud?).

 

I've seen good games, not so good games and outright horrible games. I'm not special in this; we all have.

 

There are several games I felt 'at home' playing, games that I just seemed to gel with. But until I discovered Bioware there were no companies I felt 'at home' with. The closest contender was Blizzard (this was pre-WoW, mind you). But from the moment I first started playing Bioware games I just felt... welcomed. It was like I'd finally found a game company that really cares about gamers.

 

When David Gaider posted his now-notorious response to the Straight Male Gamer, defending Bioware's decision to include same sex relationships without any kind of apology, I admit I cheered. I cheered. My respect for Bioware tripled. Whether you agree with the decision or not the fact that they stood by it unwaveringly was a massive step and very much worthy of respect.

 

And now... TOR.

 

It's a great game. I really like it. But this silence that we're all getting - pro-SGRA, anti-SGRA, pro-Toggle, anti-Toggle - really doesn't feel like the Bioware I felt that respect for. It's a different studio, I know, and I can't fault the moderators for doing their (very thankless) jobs, but the lack of response from developers is, as one person put it, 'deafening'.

 

I'd like to know Bioware Austin's stance on this. I'd like to know their approach and their philosophy. Even if I don't like what I hear I'd still like to hear it, so that we all know just where we stand.

 

It's sad that people who had the 'Bioware fuzzies' are starting to lose that feeling of trust and, dare I say it, admiration.

[Kioma]

Sure it makes me feel better. I really liked yours, Kioma and GenoAmi's comments on the thread, I don't think I'm going to be continuing the conversation much if they don't reverse that decision but in the mean time I've by all means found that you and those mentioned as well as Rackj. are my favorite debaters on the forum so far.

 

That's quite a compliment, ComfterBilly. Thank you.

[MoogleNut]

MoogleNut's logic is sound.

 

So very NOT something anyone has ever said about me and logic before

 

MoogleNut's confusion is also valid

 

This, this I hear a lot ^^

 

On a serious note, thank you Kioma for the response on my behalf - you stated what I was thinking better than I could

 

Also, how do I post the interview quote as a link? I can do a quote, I can do a link, but not one that looks like the other.

 

Cheers

[Suaine]

Can't a girl go to sleep without the world changing around her?

 

I got my feedback survey email and I'm trying to figure out a concise yet detailed way to say "love your game, hate being excluded from core content, absolutely loathe the way it is being handled as a subject of discussion", wish me luck. I think I might need footnotes.

[Zandilar]

Can't a girl go to sleep without the world changing around her?

 

I got my feedback survey email and I'm trying to figure out a concise yet detailed way to say "love your game, hate being excluded from core content, absolutely loathe the way it is being handled as a subject of discussion", wish me luck. I think I might need footnotes.

 

I got one of those feedback survey e-mails too... And at the risk of having my post deleted, this is what I said...

 

Just wanted to let you know that aside from one thing, I am having a pretty amazing time with SWTOR. The game is fantastic, enjoyable, replayable, and the added bonus of Australian (you're calling them Asia Pacific servers, but they're located in the land Down Under) servers are just the icing on the cake (no, I haven't forgotten the debacle of launch, the necessity of importing the game, or the sting of being denied a local launch until March, but I'm willing to forgive it).

 

Sadly, that one thing may well mean I won't stick with your game in the long term. I am one of those people waiting for the Same Gender Romance Arcs to be implemented, something that we were promised 5, 6 months back in September, and have heard nothing about since (except one or two instances of being referred back to the "September Announcement"). I have been participating in the Same Gender Clarifications thread on your forums (http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=320678), occasionally pipping up with my opinion (I'm strongly opposed to a toggle, so usually when a toggle is mentioned), but watching the thread like a hawk. Like many people in that thread, I'm starting to loose hope we'll see them implemented before the first paid for expansion (if ever). I am far more likely to stay if the community managers would address us directly - even if it's just an occasional "we're still working on it, we haven't forgotten/aren't ignoring you". Personally, I'd love more details on how it will be implemented - for example, am I going to have to reroll characters, or will there be ways of adding these options to my characters that have already reached level 50? Will flirtations with NPCs be added on a par with what opposite gender flirts are already in the game (and will you even up the balance between male and female initiated flirts)? Will existing companions be included in this, or are we only looking at new companions? Will it be a content patch or a paid for expansion? Are you seriously considering a toggle, and if so what form will it take? This might seem like a small aspect of the game, but it is an important one to me (and to others like me), and something that I (and others) have come to rely on from Bioware.

 

Why is this so important? Because visibility and inclusion are important. I don't think I really need to explain why to people who work for a company that is known for it's increasing inclusion of LGB characters and options in their games. (Though, unfortunately, Bioware has been falling down/behind on the inclusion of Transgender or Intersexed individuals, and the only two examples I can think of in your games are as a punch line/joke (Serendipity, DA2), or as a severely demented/disturbed individual (see spoiler, spoils the IA story)

(Hunter, SWTOR in the IA storyline - and his transgender-ness seemed to be included merely to shock/surprise the individual Agent at the end of their story).

 

 

Thank you for reading.

[Rahemo]

I was so devestated when i got my bounty hunter upto the mid 30's, made a female bounty hunter and while questing and leveling i loved the mako story line and finding out about her family etc, I sooooo wanted to have a lesbian relationship with her and thought it would have been the coolest thing. Have just rolled a jedi knight and made sure i did some research before choosing gender, SOOOO going to romance kira and put her the dancing outfit bought on the fleet! sooo sexy!

[amnie]

so, can anyone explain to me why the topic about same gender flirt prompt was closed even though it was repeatedly said by officials that it would stay open? if a few replies were off-topic (by dealing with same gender relationships, not flirt prompt) why not delete those? the topic had 60 pages aswell.

 

bioware, walking a very thin line by now.

[Suaine]

so, can anyone explain to me why the topic about same gender flirt prompt was closed even though it was repeatedly said by officials that it would stay open? if a few replies were off-topic (by dealing with same gender relationships, not flirt prompt) why not delete those? the topic had 60 pages aswell.

 

bioware, walking a very thin line by now.

 

Not just that, customer service in game specifically told us to open the topic in the first place. They literally made us do it. They did not send us to the original companion thread. They gave us a link to the suggestion box and said "post there".

 

EDIT: Oh dear, I just made the 666th post in this topic. I feel like that says something about me

Edited February 29, 2012 by Suaine