People who ninja for their companions

[terminova]

You can tell who neglects their companion in game by the......

 

"Can someone help me finish the story line quest? I can't kill this guy...."

 

My general response is "How geared is your companion?", which is usually followed by "What? What do you mean? Who cares!".

 

You = Companion, Companion = You, need roll is justified.

 

Or they say "I mean I want you to kill two mobs that are 13 levels higher than me". I actually saw that one in General chat on...Nar Shadda?

[PostalTwinkie]

Or they say "I mean I want you to kill two mobs that are 13 levels higher than me". I actually saw that one in General chat on...Nar Shadda?

 

I would have told him to buy one of every Stim and use it. Then watched as he cried that they don't stack!

[Grecanis]

You can tell who neglects their companion in game by the......

 

"Can someone help me finish the story line quest? I can't kill this guy...."

 

My general response is "How geared is your companion?", which is usually followed by "What? What do you mean? Who cares!".

 

You = Companion, Companion = You, need roll is justified.

 

I never need for my companions and they are sometimes better geared than the toon they're with. ..and I rarely come across a mob I can't kill. (unless it's 13 levels over me ..lol)

[terminova]

I would have told him to buy one of every Stim and use it. Then watched as he cried that they don't stack!

 

lol, I was nice and told him to wait 13 levels...but he didn't want to. Not sure if he ever managed to get anyone to take him up on that. He was still spamming General chat when I logged off.

 

But flame ME for equiping them properly ??

 

Only in a duel....with a flamethrower....honest...

Edited February 24, 2012 by terminova

[JHoltJHolt]

Again! How many times do you need to be told !!

 

It doesn't matter! If I was there to help kill the boss, I get to roll on the loot. You do not get to question anything after that!

 

Your statement is completely and unequivocally false.

 

Show me anywhere that states you have any right to question what I do with loot I win? Anywhere at all?

 

I would never group with this person. It's too bad he doesn't announce this ****** attitude as soon as he joins a group.

[universeman]

The only way any of these scenarios are "fair" with the current NBG system is if everyone is following the philosophy. Everyone doing their own thing will lead to arguments because people that play like me end up losing both PC and companion gear constantly because others needing for both. And then when I cave and start needing for companions so I can get a little of that "fairness", I end up ripping someone else off that is playing the way I used to play.

 

Fairness does not always = equality. That's unfortunate, but that's the truth. In the situation above, I believe things were being fair. Who's to say you wouldn't be on the other end of the stick the next time around? And why did you cave? Because you felt entitled to some eq? Not trying to be rude here, but those are the terms you've placed on us...

 

The way I see it, the system is completely random. If +aim drops, you click NEED if you're BH or Trooper. If you're feeling on the outs because the randomness hasn't dropped your +strength boots, so what? You deal with it. At least you're not caving in and "ripping someone else off". The next time you get in a group, maybe you'll be the one with the luck.

 

How can you claim nobody has entitlement to any piece of eq and fall back on an argument that is clearly indicating you feel entitled to eq. I simply must have misunderstood your post.

 

Maybe you're looking at this from a different angle than me...but, the way I see it, the system drops a certain piece of eq meant for a specific class. Before that item dropped, the system decided completely randomly what type of item it would be. You might not think it's fair that it's an item designed for a Smuggler (since you're a Knight). But, fair doesn't necessarily mean equal in this case, because ya...I've been burned out of eq because it wasn't +aim for my Trooper quite often. Such is life. There have been occasions +aim has dropped plentiful and the team actually passed on items over and over. Some of this stuff was good stuff too.

 

You win some, you lose some. And nobody is taking advantage of anyone. It's random. It's simple. Nobody clicks NEED unless it's for their main character, or you have a reason that is clearly brought up to the group before you click NEED. That's fair. That's respectful. And that's the way I see it.

 

If any of this makes you upset or you disagree with...keep in mind, we're probably fighting (mostly) for the same thing. And I would not be opposed to someone clicking NEED on eq that wasn't for their class if they said something up front, like "hey nothing is dropping for me, you guys mind if I take this one?".

 

But, clicking NEED at any time for companions (or basically whatever reason, because people will justify it any way they want to) I do not agree with. The only way to police the system is if there's a way to keep players in check. NEEDing for characters class only is the only way to keep that in check.

[Malpracticex]

Again! How many times do you need to be told !!

 

It doesn't matter! If I was there to help kill the boss, I get to roll on the loot. You do not get to question anything after that!

 

Your statement is completely and unequivocally false.

 

Show me anywhere that states you have any right to question what I do with loot I win? Anywhere at all?

 

 

whats really sad is you still here trying to throw your weight around even after you said you unsubscribed and threw the game in the garbage. On top of that stating you hate this community. your not here to debate, your here to cause upheaval.

[Revenaught]

As a healer, my response to this would be "okay, than I guess it should be fine for me to let you die in the battle, finish the boss with the rest of the group, and while you are rezzing, loot the boss so you don't get a chance at the loot." That seems just as "fair" to me as the tank needing on a piece of healer gear that upgrades me simply because it would help his companion. I was more instrumental to beating that boss than his companion that was not part of the fight, thus I "deserve" the item more than his companion "deserves" the item. Just as I deserve a piece of loot from a flashpoint more than any person who did not run that flashpoint with us.

 

All's fair in love and war? Seems to be your stance, I disagree.

 

No that would be far from a fair opportunity at the loot that the boss dropped. That would be underhanded, immoral, and downright rude. You would be deliberately taking action to remove all opportunity for another player who helped to kill the boss to even get a chance at winning the loot dropped.

 

What is fair is that just as the tank may need on a piece of healer gear, that you feel should be yours alone, for his companion you my need on a piece of tank gear, that would be an upgrade for him, for your companion.

[Irusan]

Why do you say that? Surely if everyone is rolling the same dice, each has a fair chance of winning?

 

 

 

Then have an even easier time of gearing up.

 

 

 

I think you are assuming that players don't click pass when they do not need?

 

 

The only way any of these scenarios are "fair" with the current NBG system is if everyone is following the philosophy. Everyone doing their own thing will lead to arguments because people that play like me end up losing both PC and companion gear constantly because others needing for both. And then when I cave and start needing for companions so I can get a little of that "fairness", I end up ripping someone else off that is playing the way I used to play.

 

 

 

 

 

 

My way has already been proven beyond reproach, to be fairer than any method you have countered with.

 

Your way has been going on since wow, so what? Mine has been going on since the birth of MMOs and before to be more exact.

 

Your way, the players that match the class, get loot, the rest get nothing.

 

My way, everyone gets something. Heck, round robin is better than your way.

 

It seems the only way you can keep your argument afloat here is debating what is "fair". We have already admitted that "Roll/Pass" and Round Robin are both very "fair". However, fair does not equal intelligent. Neither system is an efficient way to gear up anyone. Ask for Round Robin loot in your next group and see what the consensus is. Oops, I forgot, you uninstalled the game and threw it in the garbage. Well, in your next MMO try it out.

[Irusan]

This is incorrect.. Want to discuss fair? Let's take an example..

 

4 players, 1 boss, 2 class items.

 

If we use NBG, 2 players get something, 2 players get nothing.

 

If we use roll/pass. Assuming all roll;

 

2 Players get loot, 2 players get nothing. But.. 2 players now have 2 bits of loot that may not be for their class, which they can now sell to the players matching the class of the loot.

 

Result.. 4 players, 2 with loot, 2 with credits.

 

Are you saying 2 players with loot and 2 players with nothing is more fair than my last example?

 

How are you going to sell that piece of BOP loot to anyone but a vendor?

[Mursy]

I have no problem with someone taking high end gear for a companion. I have done it myself. Companions are an intrinsic part of your game presence and you should be able to gear them out with top end gear. That being said if the group wants it otherwise I will comply provided they are willing to do repeat runs. I will not sacrifice gearing out my companion to let someone one only interested in getting thier own gear piece before moving on though. Why should I?

[DarthKhaos]

that is why i dont discuss anytime loot drops i click need if i want it and that's that, we dont have time in a flashpoint or operation to discuss each and every loot drop

 

 

and people that think companions arent great solo, mine is geared out in rakata, columi and a tionese piece and he's even a healer and soloed 2 strongs without losing health was insane.

 

some of the top geared companion vids on youtube are crazy sick what you can gear your companions up to do. companions get seriously insane in top gear.

 

there's no way in heck im gonna listen to some holier than thou 'political correct' wannabe shout morals and ethics at me, it's my popup and it dont come with a EULA or TOS, so I roll need for me and companions.

 

course my guild all do the same, but we've kicked idiots from pickup groups out of the group when they start trying to preach about loot rules. Id much rather hope for good random's than listen to some autistic rant about loot rules that do not exist except in his own head.

I wonder why people like you even bother to play an MMO... Or leave the house as a matter of fact.

 

In the previous thread I pointed out that people don't have a problem you get stuff for your companion, however the people who are actively running the event has priority. Your companion did not contribute to killing the mob. All it takes is "Anyone need that? I'd like to roll on it for my companion." Most of the time it's ok. Me personally if I say won 2 things in the run already I'd let the person have it for their companion so we all get some loot love. However if you roll need without asking you'll be in need for a new tank or healer because those are the rolls I tend to play mostly.

 

This is incorrect.. Want to discuss fair? Let's take an example..

 

4 players, 1 boss, 2 class items.

 

If we use NBG, 2 players get something, 2 players get nothing.

 

If we use roll/pass. Assuming all roll;

 

2 Players get loot, 2 players get nothing. But.. 2 players now have 2 bits of loot that may not be for their class, which they can now sell to the players matching the class of the loot.

 

Result.. 4 players, 2 with loot, 2 with credits.

 

Are you saying 2 players with loot and 2 players with nothing is more fair than my last example?

Your math is a bit off. Only 2 items drops so how can you have 2 people getting loot and 2 people getting cash from selling said loot?

Edited February 24, 2012 by DarthKhaos

[Galbatorrix]

Again! How many times do you need to be told !!

 

It doesn't matter! If I was there to help kill the boss, I get to roll on the loot. You do not get to question anything after that!

 

Your statement is completely and unequivocally false.

 

Show me anywhere that states you have any right to question what I do with loot I win? Anywhere at all?

 

 

I was in the run too and I'll question/argue and blast you into oblivion over gen chat and ask that my guild put you on /ignore for being a loot hog. If you have the right to loot anything and everything, all the while giving the rest of the group the middle finger, then you don't deserve any respect what so ever. At that point, you deserve to be blasted. How about that?

 

 

That is, you know... if you still actually played the game.

[ferroz]

To answer your question, I think that the times have changed since Everquest days. Reputation was important in those games of old. Not to say that there weren't griefers but the communities in some of the older games were quite good.

And NBG in pugs wasn't the universal, or really even a common practice in those days...

 

In pugs, "the cleric gets the gems" was a far more universal loot rule in EQ than "NGB"

[Galbatorrix]

And NBG in pugs wasn't the universal, or really even a common practice in those days...

 

In pugs, "the cleric gets the gems" was a far more universal loot rule in EQ than "NGB"

 

 

Everquest invented the word "loot ninja". Why you guys are using that game as an example of "fairness" is beyond me.

[Irusan]

Everquest invented the word "loot ninja". Why you guys are using that game as an example of "fairness" is beyond me.

 

Actually, the "fairness" argument is all that keeps them here. If thats what you want to hear, sure Roll/Pass is fair. Round Robin is fair. Fair does not equal intelligent, efficient loot distribution, sadly.

 

I would rather come out of a FP with one piece of gear for my class that is an upgrade than three pieces of BOP vendor useless gear while another person gets the one thing I could have used, to find it as useless as the three pieces of loot I got.

[Irusan]

Again! How many times do you need to be told !!

 

It doesn't matter! If I was there to help kill the boss, I get to roll on the loot. You do not get to question anything after that!

 

Your statement is completely and unequivocally false.

 

Show me anywhere that states you have any right to question what I do with loot I win? Anywhere at all?

 

Starting to sound a bit shrill there, buddy.

 

In the parlance of our times: umadbrah?

[midichlorian]

Now explain the 'greed' bit please..

 

Sure.

When you run an instance with other players and then take the loot for your companion without consideration for the other players who may need it for their main character, it is a greedy act.

[terminova]

Sure.

When you run an instance with other players and then take the loot for your companion without consideration for the other players who may need it for their main character, it is a greedy act.

 

I thought greed was taking gear you had no use for and selling it.

Edited February 24, 2012 by terminova

[Revenaught]

Sure.

When you run an instance with other players and then take the loot for your companion without consideration for the other players who may need it for their main character, it is a greedy act.

 

The other players had the same ability to roll on all the loot for their companions as well. No greed at all.

[Laokoon]

Thankfully the Devs will make this issue moot. Per the Q&A, they are adding a button to need for companions and limiting Need to only classes that can use the item. This both ends the debate over "what people should do" since there wont be a choice and tells us what the Dev's vision for loot rules are.

[terminova]

Thankfully the Devs will make this issue moot. Per the Q&A, they are adding a button to need for companions and limiting Need to only classes that can use the item. This both ends the debate over "what people should do" since there wont be a choice and tells us what the Dev's vision for loot rules are.

 

Unless it is in the game right now, it doesn't end the debate as the only options at the moment are Need/Greed/Pass.

[Revenaught]

Thankfully the Devs will make this issue moot. Per the Q&A, they are adding a button to need for companions and limiting Need to only classes that can use the item. This both ends the debate over "what people should do" since there wont be a choice and tells us what the Dev's vision for loot rules are.

 

The quote said issue is complex and they will "probably" do something "sometime" I'm not holding my breath waiting.

[LexiCazam]

Hi everyone,

 

As someone pointed out earlier, Principal Lead Systems Designer Damion Schubert has commented on this issue in another thread a couple of weeks ago:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=2813008#post2813008

 

Need vs. greed isn't as simple in our game because of companions, as well as Orange Gear and mod extraction.

 

We will probably limit the 'need' button to only people who match the primary class the gear is meant for, and add a new button in between need and greed for players to choose if they intend the gear for these purposes - this will allow CC users to roll against each other without competing with the guy who wants to sell the gear for credits.

 

I don't have a timeline on this for you guys right now, though - certainly not in the next major patch. In the meantime, I strongly recommend that players who care clearly decide the expected need/greed role behaviors ('no companion need rolling or you're out!') when a group is initially formed. In the meantime, I'll work on getting this feature in the works.

 

[Vecke]

Everquest invented the word "loot ninja". Why you guys are using that game as an example of "fairness" is beyond me.

 

Just for clarification, loot ninjas in EQ had nothing to do with fairness or subjective arguments about who 'deserved' the item. In EQ, this issue (in my experience) was always very fair and absolutely clear. You won it, it's yours. Everything after that is just how generous you're feeling.

 

An EQ loot ninja was outside the scope of the 'fair' debate, and wasn't a controversial topic at all. Every person playing knew that a loot ninja was theif. It was someone that lost a roll, then took the loot anyway (because that was possible back then).

 

Your comment is respectfully outside the scope of this debate. In EQ, the loot rules were incredibly fair and there was 100% consensus on what a loot ninja is. Here, obviously, not so much.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Vecke