When do Ops/Scoundrels realize they aren't ranged?

[Caelrie]

Good for him. I'm glad he told you off for telling him how to play.

 

They can be played as ranged. Maybe he was a Dirty Fighting Scoundrel. Did you ask or did you just assume that was a Scrapper since he wasn't healing?

 

Scoundrels/Operatives still have all the fundamental Smuggler/Agent skills that help them to be ranged.

 

Is it optimal? Of course not, but not everyone gives a flying Force what's optimal.

 

Ignore this guy. He'll make your group weaker by wasting a DPS slot.

[kumacurry]

If you make it to level 28, which is something like 10 to 12 hours of play, and you take the initiative to join heroic groups, then you should have also taken the initiative to learn your class.

 

If, after all of that, you still believe your Rogue is an Archer, then you get no sympathy from me. If someone is still THAT confused about the game, then they should avoid groups. There's nothing in the ToS about "being polite" as far as I know, so if anyone in this thread wants to give me a lesson in manners, this isn't the time or place.

 

Whole thread you act so high and mighty, yet what i see is that it is actualy you who fails to underestand some game basic aspects - that and you really lack social skills. To get to level 28 you can easily spend most time soloing and low level flashpoints/heroics are not really that challenging to force you to get best from your skills.

You also fail pretty hard to uderestand that people have different playstyle and skill, something you undrestand immedietly others might not get at all. Or maybe they are trying to something new and see if it pays off.

 

In many random groups i have been in, be it heroics or flashpoints, i have met people you would describe as confused - sages overusing force tremor or using too ofthen the only melee skill they had, crazy eng. snipers blowing everything with aoe etc... Yet in 9 of 10 cases (though usualy it helped when we got wiped out) when i simply started to suggest our tactics and playstyle to overcome challenges, people listened or added their own ideas. After a bit of chat we have agreed on some basic tactics, targeting rules etc... and finished mission nice and clean without enforcing exact playstyle to anyone unless it was really needed for hard boss - in which case people usualy do underestand the need for that.

 

Your point of view may be valid for hard mode flashpoints and such, but if you play those with random groups, you usualy agreed first that everyone knows theirs roles and tactics. That is unless you pair with elites who knows what to do without telling them....

 

So while that scoundrel might not have used optimal playstyle, it's you who lacks ability to lead and cooperate. In my group it would be more likely you who would be politely forced out of group - I rather do things slower and explain few things to "confused" but nice people than have to deal with "elite" player who lacks basic social manners.

[Caelrie]

My scoundrel doesn't have a melee weapon

 

Then you're doing it wrong.

 

I'm shocked at the sheer number of posters who believe scoundrels and operatives can spec to be a real a ranged class. Wow.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Caelrie

[kumacurry]

Then you're doing it wrong.

 

I'm shocked at the sheer number of posters who believe scoundrels and operatives can spec to be a real a ranged class. Wow.

 

Ehm... Scoundrel has shotgun. Last time i checked, that still counts as ranged weapon. Sure, can't hit anything past 4 meters, but that's not relevant here

 

And blaster whip or kick in nuts/oil pump doesn't counts melee weapon either. I think that's what he was pointing at

Edited February 18, 2012 by kumacurry

[Caelrie]

Ehm... Scoundrel has shotgun. Last time i checked, that still counts as ranged weapon. Sure, can't hit anything past 4 meters, but that's not relevant here

 

And blaster whip or kick in nuts/oil pump doesn't counts melee weapon either. I think that's what he was pointing at

 

We both know he was using it as justification for calling himself a ranged class. Hopefully, we both know he was wrong.

[Ganjiang]

Then you're doing it wrong.

 

I'm shocked at the sheer number of posters who believe scoundrels and operatives can spec to be a real a ranged class. Wow.

 

What are you talking about? Scoundrels are totally viable ranged DPS. Beyond 10m we have Vital Shot and Shrap Bomb for those insane dots! I can also use cover too, just not as well as a gunslinger. By spamming Charged Burst and alternating it in with my basic attack, I can really crank out that long range damage. I can stealth too, but since I play a ranged DPS, all I really use the class-mechanic for is to vanish when things don't go my way (saves me a ton on repair bills lol). Since I have no way of generating Upper Hands without being in melee (unless I'm racking up those kills), I tend to ignore this mechanic of my class as well. Upper Hands are just over rated anyway.

 

The above text is sarcasm.

 

I definitely agree though. It's baffling how many posters think scoundrels are a viable ranged dps class.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Ganjiang

[thecoffeecup]

I definitely agree though. It's baffling how many posters think scoundrels are a viable ranged dps class.

Not as raid quality DPS anyway.

 

Scrapper is melee. No excuses.

 

Dirty Fighting CAN be played as a mediocre ranged DPS if you use heals to get Upper Hand. This isn't max DPS, but you'll see some people with that kind of spec. But I'd always rather have a player in my group who focuses on his job 100% of the time instead of exploiting the healing tree to avoid going in melee range.

[Ganjiang]

Not as raid quality DPS anyway.

 

Scrapper is melee. No excuses.

 

Dirty Fighting CAN be played as a mediocre ranged DPS if you use heals to get Upper Hand. This isn't max DPS, but you'll see some people with that kind of spec. But I'd always rather have a player in my group who focuses on his job 100% of the time instead of exploiting the healing tree to avoid going in melee range.

 

Sure, that could be used as an alternate way to gain Upper Hands. The problem with that though is that it is channeled and energy intensive. Since a lot of scoundrel and DF abilities have a max range of 10m, it's almost always better to Blaster Whip instead. Running the math, ignoring Blaster Whip and using UM as an Upper Hand generator is a huge DPS loss. Between keeping all of your dots up, healing for UH, and using the rest of your regular abilities, energy management is going to be tough.

 

If you're familiar with League of Legends, preferring to use UM as your primary Upper Hand generator as opposed to Blaster Whip in a DPS role is like playing Garen with a heavy Magic Pen build. By using an inferior play style to compensate one thing, you're losing out on even more.

[OklahomaSooner]

This is why I no longer even attempt to help a player become better.

 

If I enter a group where a player is being a handicap to the group, I quietly leave and go find a new group.

 

Occasionally, when asked why I left, I'll tell them why in as polite a manner as possible. Basically something akin to "Player X is not playing his class correctly. I do not wish to insult him/her or cause conflict, so I have decided to find my own group with better players."

 

Thankfully this has often lead to the bad player being booted and me being reinvited.

 

Politeness works well, even when you're not doing polite things.

 

This.

 

If you are an Operative or Scoundrel, you aren't using Charged Burst or Snipe to do maximum damage regardless if you are Lethality or Concealment.

 

Morons will just say "We both pay $15, i do wut i wunt", but they are the reason games die and are the same people that cry for nerfs all over the forums.

[Hajizan]

Where did I say I was polite about it?

Like I need to be criticized by some guy in-game who clearly has a weak grasp on the game's core concepts and chooses to get angry at me because I tell him his Rogue is, in fact, not an Archer.

 

The exact quote I told him was:

"You know you're melee like a rogue, right?" I know this because I've said it to about half a dozen Operatives in the past but they were level 11.

 

What is a rogue? Are you confusing swtor with another game?

[Caelrie]

What is a rogue? Are you confusing swtor with another game?

 

Rogues are in dozens and dozens of games. It's an old character archetype. You fail at whining about WoW.

[Ganjiang]

What is a rogue? Are you confusing swtor with another game?

 

Rogues are in a lot of games. I'm surprised you haven't played any.

[Matic]

 

Morons will just say "We both pay $15, i do wut i wunt", but they are the reason games die and are the same people that cry for nerfs all over the forums.

 

its more like the wannabe "pro" players kill games because they kill the strong points of these games which is the customization of a players class. thats the big reason WoW is dumbing down their talent trees, because if you don't spec your class exactly like everyone else the 14 year old "pro" players will ***** and moan at you.

 

same thing with rift 4 archtypes with 8 classes that you can mix and match at will, however i bet at the endgame 90% of the "pro's" use the exact same spec. all this customization and YOU pieces of crap dumb the game down to 1 or 2 "viable" specs per class.

 

and it looks like SWTOR will go that route as well, too many 14 year old with god complexes telling others how they should play. shut up and worry about your damn self and not someone else.

[gurugeorge]

You told him how you wanted him to play the class. You are not the authority on how classes are meant to be played. If I want to play an Assassin who focuses on Lightning, then that's fine. If the class wasn't meant to be played that way, then the game wouldn't allow it.

 

Bingo. Yes indeed. If there was a way a class was "meant to be played" (what a ridiculous phrase), then there would be no choices.

 

There are usually several synergies that are particularly effective in one way or another, that are intentional on the devs' part, but that isn't anything like the equivalent of "how the class is meant to be played".

 

The most you can hold players to is not to cause team wipes by doing silly things. But browbeating someone about their build, re. a few percent extra DPS here or there? In a PUG context, that's ridiculous.

[Ulltramagns]

 

Melee dominates AT LEVEL 10 once you receive the Op/Scoundrel buffs from choosing your AC.

 

LOL no being a lvl 10 op/scoundrel you really do not have that much to do in melee range, you will actually find yourself sniping every now and then.

[Azkit]

Only one of their specs is melee actually.

 

 

Perhaps you ought to learn2play yourself, before trying to tell others to

 

Umm.. no. 2 of their trees are melee and 1 is healing.

 

Medicine: healing.

Concealment: Laceration, Backstab, Shiv - all melee abilities.

Lethality: DoT spec - dependent upon Shiv (melee ability) proccing Tactical Advantage in order use Cull.

 

 

Maybe you're confused because you don't realize the Sniper version of Lethality is different from the Operative version? The DoTs (Corrosive Grenade and Corrosive Dart) are still 30m as an Operative, but Weakening Blast and Cull are only 10m as an Operative (30m as a Sniper). In addition, while the Sniper version has a cooldown on Cull, the Operative version has no cooldown, but instead requires a TA (Tactical Advantage) proc to use, which typically requires melee range to gain the TA procs.

[Urishir]

scoundrel was my first char, i got ranged abilities first and got used to using them

only later in game i realized i was supposed to use melee abilities over ranged

 

to my defence i was sawbones all the way to 50 so damage was equally bad on melee or ranged

 

anyway new player to game and class can easily make that mistake on scoundrel

[DGolubets]

Nothing is an excuse for being plain stupid. At lvl 10, when you choose the AC, you get a core ability called "Tactical Advantage" (don't know mirror name). It's desription clearly says that melee strikes is the only offensive way to get it. How can anyone imaging playing ranged dd after that?

[-Fritz-]

Even a melee op/scoundrel at that level barely has all the tools they need to really dish out the pain in melee range. The spec kinda blows until you're in your 30s

 

 

thats not true at all.

 

your best attacks at low level are the back blast and pistol whip... both of which are melee range.

 

 

 

 

If you got much passed your advanced class and didnt realize you chose a melee class, honestly its your own fault.

 

the scoundrel just gives you the impression it has range with the basic attack and cover shot... but all you can do from range is blow your energy and do bad damage. That doesnt magically change at level 30.

 

 

 

edit - i should say i could see sitting in cover at range having some use in PVP as a dedicated healer with a sawbones spec. Thats it though.

Edited February 18, 2012 by -Fritz-

[MCesca]

Regardless of how the player was playing the character, the Op's approach wasn't actually going to help anything at all. And that's the real issue here. Too many Elites expect potential Newbs to "Learn to Play," but you don't feel the need to be helpful. Telling someone to "learn their class" or "learn to play" is more than likely going to get you put on ignore than actually help them improve.

 

Instead, ask them how they're spec'd. Then offer suggestions like "hey, if you use this instead, you might find it works better." The old saying of "you'll attract more bees with honey" still applies. Then instead of coming to the forums and complaining about someone (and getting derided for your stupid attitude towards other people), you'll have actually helped make them a better gamer and improved your own experience at the same time.

[Corran]

it's always frustrating when you see people play like this

 

 

 

 

when the tooltips of the talents you are picking up so clearly tell you what abilities you should be using

[Achraya]

I recall I was on my Op on DK at about 14 (you know, when I had...um. Yeah.) so I grouped up for a heroic quest and I used snipe and darts and whathaveyou. Some oh-so helpful Sorc decided to get pissy and tell me that I am a Melee character and that I was hurting the group. So I, of course, got pissy back and asked him what the hell he thought I should be using at level 14 to do decent melee damage.

 

Silence descended upon party chat.

 

 

My scoundral was on Taris and again, I'm in a group. At this stage I have back blast to work with and weave that with kicks and whips, but when all of these things are on cooldown I do in fact crouch down and shoot at things. Beats standing around going 'Derp derp', you know?

 

And I say this as someone who is in the fact the melee spec. I ask you, was the Ops/Scoundrel the melee spec? Do you actually know what they were, or did you just assume for the sake of assumptions? Were they using melee abilities and then strafing back out of range? (I do this on my gunslinger. Sharpshooter is oh so boring, sometimes a girl needs to kick things or smack them with her gun to keep herself awake.)

Edited February 18, 2012 by Achraya

[Vallowen]

actually, only scrapper/concealment is full blown melee

 

and even then, you can pump out some decent dmg from range.

 

and at lvl 28, you are far from getting the 2 abilities that makes your melee really hurt

 

lethality/(repub version) only has to be in melee every 6ish secs at best

Edited February 18, 2012 by Vallowen

[hadoken]

lethality/(repub version) only has to be in melee every 6ish secs at best

 

And you DON'T consider that melee?

[mkabla]

This thread is really making my eyes hurt...

 

Why would anyone ever deem himself important enough to tell other people how to play, let alone open a thread about it?

 

The sensible people in here stated time and again that Scoundrels/Ops are not exclusively melee, and - depending on talent layout - can perform admirably at range.

 

If my team makes a mistake, i get aggro or any other **** hits the fan, of course i will crawl behind a rock and take pot shots. Cover is a class mechanic and every smuggler/agent is 100% entitled to use it, regardless of anyone's opinions.

 

Regarding Lethality spec: There's only one ability besides stim boost that requires TA, and said ability is near pointless on anything lesser than elites because mobs are usually dead before you're able to set it up properly. Additionally, there's 3 alternate sources for TA besides Shiv - so no, Leth/DF is definitely not a melee spec.