Concealment Operative > Deception Assassin

[AbhiX]

Hey guys,

I have both the mirror classes of the above mentioned characters and as i posted this on the mirror forum, i will post it here too

Shadow(sin) is full BM, while Scoundrel(Operative) just has the accessories.

 

IMHO, Scoundrel(Operative) is way way way better in pvp ^_^

 

Reasons :-

1. Better burst dmg from stealth

2. Almost comparable burst dmg to a shadow even out of stealth

3. Better sustained dmg compared to shadows out of stealth

4. Better total crit rate cause of passives as well as better crit rate for important skills

5. HEALS

6. Better CCs and they allow to create more combos

7. An instant DOT at a 30 range which can be hella useful

8. 30m range on normal attacks

9. A slow that roots as well!

 

The only thing infil shadow has better is the 3 sec resilience and force speed

[Hyfy]

The only thing infil shadow has better is the 3 sec resilience and force speed

 

And better survivability thanks to Darkness on a Sin and I think it's Kinetic?? on the a shadow. And guard to protect the ball carrier. And debuffs that reduce the damage of the other team. As well as a utility that allows it to take several roles almost completely on the fly with no need to respec. Don't sell the Assassins/Shadows short, they can actually be a game changer in PvP.

[Lowerydro]

I would basically agree when talking about a deception assassin.

 

I also don't see the point in madness either... it is a dot spec for a melee range class. It works great for sorcs (well played sorcs with madness are insanely OP) but for assassins there is really no point. Bioware should have given the lightning tree as the shared tree which could have given chain lightning and blast but worked them off procs.

 

For Darkness there really is no comparison though. I keep trying to level my alts but they are so boring compared to a darkness assassin. I can control the fight in pvp, no matter where and now at 600 expertise it takes 3-4 people to take me down in any reasonable amount of time (thanks surge nerf).

 

Darkness simply gets all the utility that Ops don't get. Sadly you can roll a powertech and get the same utility and ranged damage, plus heavy armor and better burst in tank spec... but stealth is way too fun.

 

Hopefully if the devs are paying attention we will get a rework of the deception tree and some real skills added. Giving a charge that simply does what our current dps charge does but instant and a replacement for our basic melee attack is pretty weak. And like I said about madness, there is no reason to go that way as an assassin, just roll a sorc.

[excentric]

Too bad operative is super boring to play. Just IMO.

[Kyuss]

Reasons :-

1. Better burst dmg from stealth

2. Almost comparable burst dmg to a shadow even out of stealth

3. Better sustained dmg compared to shadows out of stealth

4. Better total crit rate cause of passives as well as better crit rate for important skills

5. HEALS

6. Better CCs and they allow to create more combos

7. An instant DOT at a 30 range which can be hella useful

8. 30m range on normal attacks

9. A slow that roots as well!

 

1. True, which is why they were nerfed.

2. False, they rely heavily upon a stealth opener -- especially for the initiail CC.

3. Debatable and currently anecdotal.

4. True, though crits have devalued for everyone since the surge nerf.

5. Crap heals unless you spec as a healer, in which one would lose everything else you've mentioned.

6. They have the same amount of CCs as assassins; knockdown, 4 sec stun... not counting flashbang as it breaks on damage.

7. True, and it is very useful until it gets dispelled... and keeps you in combat for longer, so no stealth.

8. The basic 'free' attack is 30m but all other 'ranged' attacks are 10m.

9. True, though costs 2 talent points in order to root.

[snuff]

And better survivability thanks to Darkness on a Sin and I think it's Kinetic?? on the a shadow. And guard to protect the ball carrier. And debuffs that reduce the damage of the other team. As well as a utility that allows it to take several roles almost completely on the fly with no need to respec. Don't sell the Assassins/Shadows short, they can actually be a game changer in PvP.

 

umm he is comparing the DPS trees bud. Darkness would be the tanking tree

[Gurlok]

are we comparing apples to pears here?

 

the mirror prof for smuggler is imperial agent, not inquisitor...

[Technohic]

are we comparing apples to pears here?

 

the mirror prof for smuggler is imperial agent, not inquisitor...

 

No, he is comparing HIS shadow to HIS smuggler and trying to get opinions from those of us who may have a sin AND and an operative.

[Hyfy]

umm he is comparing the DPS trees bud. Darkness would be the tanking tree

 

Except the tanking stance is available to you regardless of spec at 14 and quite usable while in the DPS trees which allows it to be brought into the equation. So yeah, it's quite reasonable to be added into the comparison.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Hyfy

[Manigma]

Too bad operative is super boring to play. Just IMO.

Being ball carrier in Huttball almost every game is boring - that's why I re-rolled to Operative, much more fun in Huttball surprisingly.

[blarse]

Being ball carrier in Huttball almost every game is boring - that's why I re-rolled to Operative, much more fun in Huttball surprisingly.

 

You consider being knocked around like a pinball fun? Or are you just one of those people that hangs around in the back killing people instead of being useful?

[Sabbathius]

1. True, which is why they were nerfed.

 

It's still hella strong. Plus they can chain it. Hidden Strike->Backstab->Shiv->Cloak->Hidden Strike->Probe->Backstab->Shiv->Lacerate->Lacerate. You're a corpse.

 

2. False, they rely heavily upon a stealth opener -- especially for the initiail CC.

 

That's what they want you to think. It's actually quite decent, if played properly.

 

Deception Sin vs Conc Op? DEFINITELY Operative. It's not even a contest.

 

With Stim Boost running, he regens 2% health and 4.5 extra energy every 3 seconds. Heals he receives are 9% stronger. Shield Probe absorbs a portion of the damage. Evasion is a melee/ranged version of Force Shroud.

 

He can chain a knockdown into a full stun, he can blind and heal.

 

Only thing you can do fairly reliably against even a good OP is to run away, they have no gap closers, luckily.

[Sabbathius]

Being ball carrier in Huttball almost every game is boring - that's why I re-rolled to Operative, much more fun in Huttball surprisingly.

 

Actually I found it to be the exact opposite. Other WZs it's OK, but I feel TOTALLY useless in Huttball as an Operative.

 

What I mean is, if I get knocked away/down, on my PT and Mara I still have charge. Give me a target, and I'll leap up and rejoin the fight almost instantly. On my PT I also have a grapple pull, same as on my Sin. So knock me away/down, I'll pull you down to me too.

 

But on the OP, if I get knocked back/down, that's pretty much it. No speed boost of any kind. No grapple of any kind. Yeah, I can vanish and walk back to where the fight is, but that's just so boring.

 

It's also depressing, finding yourself on the side and watching the ball carrier pass above you, and I keep searching for either Grapple/Force Pull or Force/Jet Charge, and not finding them. And all I can do as Operative is put a DoT on him and pew pew with auto attacks, which don't do much.

 

One on one, yeah, you're still godly if you've got an iota of skill. Heck, last night I was pulling off 2v1s if I burned all CDs. But in Huttball there's no more useless class. Even sniper I feel is more useful than Operative in that map. Then again, it's the same with Deception Sin - no Force Pull. So I guess they're the same in this regard. Which is why I feel Darkness or Darkness hybrid are both vastly superior specs.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Sabbathius

[LordbishopX]

Actually I found it to be the exact opposite. Other WZs it's OK, but I feel TOTALLY useless in Huttball as an Operative.

 

What I mean is, if I get knocked away/down, on my PT and Mara I still have charge. Give me a target, and I'll leap up and rejoin the fight almost instantly. On my PT I also have a grapple pull, same as on my Sin. So knock me away/down, I'll pull you down to me too.

 

But on the OP, if I get knocked back/down, that's pretty much it. No speed boost of any kind. No grapple of any kind. Yeah, I can vanish and walk back to where the fight is, but that's just so boring.

 

It's also depressing, finding yourself on the side and watching the ball carrier pass above you, and I keep searching for either Grapple/Force Pull or Force/Jet Charge, and not finding them. And all I can do as Operative is put a DoT on him and pew pew with auto attacks, which don't do much.

 

One on one, yeah, you're still godly if you've got an iota of skill. Heck, last night I was pulling off 2v1s if I burned all CDs. But in Huttball there's no more useless class. Even sniper I feel is more useful than Operative in that map. Then again, it's the same with Deception Sin - no Force Pull. So I guess they're the same in this regard. Which is why I feel Darkness or Darkness hybrid are both vastly superior specs.

 

Almost everything you said as a deception SIN I feel it sucks lol. At least as ops u do have range and can throw grenades lol. In every way a OPS still has more they can do over a SIN especially Deception even little heals help way more than none lol easy support of the ball carrier for sure if played correctly makes scoring easier.

Edited February 17, 2012 by LordbishopX

[Darth_Xzygy]

hella

idk why, but this word makes me smile.

 

Different classes are different. Both are stealthers, but operative is frontloaded damage with low mobility and sin is more backload burst or high sustained (madness) and great mobility.

 

Not gonna lie, being able to use your autoattack at 30y is fantastic, and a 30y spammable DoT would be nice, but I'm quite happy with sin in its current state. Full champ geared on both, and both do very well in all BGs.

 

If we're comparing apples to pears, I'll stick with pear. Not because they're better, but because their different and freaking delicious.

[Sabbathius]

Almost everything you said as a deception SIN I feel it sucks lol. At least as ops u do have range and can throw grenades lol. In every way a OPS still has more they can do over a SIN especially Deception even little heals help way more than none lol easy support of the ball carrier for sure if played correctly makes scoring easier.

 

That's why I've never been able to play Deception for any length of time. Heck, even Madness. As Darkness you just have so much utility.

 

Though I feel it's somewhat unfair that PTs get Grapple, regardless of spec. Especially considering at least half of their attacks are 30m range, while Sins are forced to spec into Force Pull.

 

And a PT specced into Jet Charge is just amazing, really best of both worlds I think. If enemy doesn't have full resolve, pull him where you want him. If he does have full resolve, charge him. Either way, you do what you want to. By comparison, as a Sin, you get knocked down, even Darkness, and if his resolve is full all you can do is pop Reck->FL, and that's about it. Same with OP, you DoT->Grenade->pew pew, all of which are pretty weak. Sometimes I think a PT was specifically designed with Huttball in mind.

[AbhiX]

1. True, which is why they were nerfed.

2. False, they rely heavily upon a stealth opener -- especially for the initiail CC.

3. Debatable and currently anecdotal.

4. True, though crits have devalued for everyone since the surge nerf.

5. Crap heals unless you spec as a healer, in which one would lose everything else you've mentioned.

6. They have the same amount of CCs as assassins; knockdown, 4 sec stun... not counting flashbang as it breaks on damage.

7. True, and it is very useful until it gets dispelled... and keeps you in combat for longer, so no stealth.

8. The basic 'free' attack is 30m but all other 'ranged' attacks are 10m.

9. True, though costs 2 talent points in order to root.

 

1. They had insane burst before, now they have semi insane burst. Wtih relics and stuff

Shoot First (Close to 5k dmg crit)

Flechette Round ( Close to 3k Dmg over 6 seconds )

Back Blast (Close to 4k dmg crit)

So over a period of 1.5 sec a scoundrel still does/applies close to 12k dmg.

They way the animations and lag works in the game, a socundrel gets another hit in too which is like 3.5k dmg if crit. Not to mention, a scoundrel could always Shoot first > Vanish > Shoot First again.

The best thing is that, no 1 gets a chance to fight back during this time, while a deception sin/infil shadow has to build up the shock proc and any 1 can use a defensive cd that time

2. Now calculating a sin/shadows out of stealth burst. As a full bm hitting a 650 expertise scoundrel. Buffed up shock (With relics, recklessness etc etc) Does 4.2k dmg if single hit, 6.5k dmg if double hit. Followed by discharge (Not considering all 5 charges) which does like 4k dmg...So the burst is close to 10k

Now a scoundrel could flashbang, Use a Sabotage Charge, Cast XS firefighter, Flechette round + Back Blast

Now this would be Sabotage Charge (3.2k dmg if crit), XS (3k dmg per tick per crit), Back Blast(3.2k dmg if crit ), Flecheete round (3k dmg over 6 seconds)

So this also gives close to 10k dmg in an instant on a player out of stealth

 

3. Looking at the dmg numbers, only time a sin did comparable dmg was when sin had recklessness up. Scounrel,operative do better sustained cause :-

a. Most skills have kinetic dmg

b. Flecheete round being out of gcd, meaning...u get an extra 3k hit every 6 seconds

c. Sin crits might be doing more dmg number wise by like 300 dmg but they crit way way way lesser compared to scoundrel. Also scoundrel dps increases cause of dots

 

5. So, 4.5k self heal crits over 2 secs is crap? A scoundrel can heal himself 70 to 100% health in a flashbang cc

 

6. CCs might essentially look the same but they act way differently

As a sin, i would only cc to intterupt mostly. As once i cc, the only thing that I can do is DPS

As a scoundrel, I can either heal myself up or create a huge burst. Flashbang might break on dmg. But it creates a huge range of possibles as mentioned on the above points.

Heck, it is the reason..I can win 2v1s mostly as a scoundrel.

 

7. A 30m range instant dot which lasts 21 seconds is useful for defense. Also it is internal dmg. I could stop people from capping a node. From planting the door. For some other stealth class which won't be able to vanish cause of dot. In prolonged fights especially against tanks it would do internal dmg.

 

8. 30m range on that skill itself is again so important while trying to defend. Sins get a 30m cc or have to use recklessness.

 

9. As I said, a concealment operative/scrapper scoundrel would definitely have that skill ^_^

[LordbishopX]

I read the QQ about ops/scoundrel nerf then I run into the guys doing 400k damage in wz handing me my arse in under 10 sec and think what the heck could this guy do before the nerf lol. Playing my ops I 2/3 shot most mobs and wonder still whats the crying over lol. Some guys still just do work just takes a bit longer and only a little bit lol. Edited February 17, 2012 by LordbishopX

[Athilias]

Hey guys,

I have both the mirror classes of the above mentioned characters and as i posted this on the mirror forum, i will post it here too

Shadow(sin) is full BM, while Scoundrel(Operative) just has the accessories.

 

IMHO, Scoundrel(Operative) is way way way better in pvp ^_^

 

Reasons :-

1. Better burst dmg from stealth

2. Almost comparable burst dmg to a shadow even out of stealth

3. Better sustained dmg compared to shadows out of stealth

4. Better total crit rate cause of passives as well as better crit rate for important skills

5. HEALS

6. Better CCs and they allow to create more combos

7. An instant DOT at a 30 range which can be hella useful

8. 30m range on normal attacks

9. A slow that roots as well!

 

The only thing infil shadow has better is the 3 sec resilience and force speed

 

Strongly disagree, I'll take it point by point:

 

1: True, but going back into stealth is harder then it seems, if someone runs away from us, we have to hide for 8s+ (whatever it is to get out of combat) to restealth. Most fights are not 1v1, and people join in during the process, which means even if we kill our original target, most of the time we can't just jump back into stealth, and cloaking screen still has a 1m CD. On top of that, if we have a dot on us (which almost every class does do) we have to take time to cleanse the dot, which can be the difference between getting back into stealth and getting charged at by a marauder/PT/Juggernaut, especially in lvl 50 combat, that's assuming it's a dot we can cleanse (can not remove things like Affliction).

 

2: Comparable in what way? You have a great rotation with Voltaic Slash, Shock (which is proc'd bonus damage), Thrash, Low Strike, Maul, and then you have Surging charge which can do tons of internal damage. On top of that, your slow lasts more then 2 seconds, and only is a 12s cooldown. Sin's out of stealth viability is much more then a Operative's.

 

3: Sins have a great out of stealth rotation. We've got (AB) Backstab (10s CD) -> Shiv (6s, not that strong) -> Lacerate (maybe get a second one if it procs another TA). In 3 seconds we blow most of our useful attacks and are left with Charged Shot, which is far too much energy and is weak weapon damage. We could use 1 GCD to dot them with Corrosive Dart, but we still have a good amount of time until the next shiv at that rate. In prolonged out of combat fighting, Operatives have the lowest damage out of all classes, we are incredibly reliant on getting hidden strike. The best we can do if we start the fight out of stealth, is to get lucky with Laceration procs, and to use our roots/stuns to kite them while they take dot damage (and hope they don't have any cc breakers). Sins have a strong out of combat rotation, and I don't have any problems fighting with him out of combat.

 

4: This is true, but doesn't matter as much now since surge isn't as good. However you get a higher crit bonus (50% bonus compared to our 30%) and your thing that gets the bonus (shock) gets a 45% to deal 50% of it's normal damage on top if it. More on that you get a 50% bonus damage to your discharge, which does incredible damage as is (internal at that!). So we might crit slightly more often, you'll crit FAR harder when you do.

 

5: We have heals but they are not that strong, or useful if not spec'd into it. The only decent one is Kolto Injection, and that one costs a ton of energy, which is very hard for us to keep over prolonged combat. Where as you have taunts, which are off the GCD, and much more useful to the party, and you don't have to spec them to make them even very slightly viable, where as we have to put at least 2 points in the in the healing tree, to reduce the casting time of KI to make it a little viable (very situational).

 

6: This point is actually true. We have Jarring Strike, Debilitation Stab (30s CD when spec'd, 3s stun, does minor damage), FB (they can't be dot'd if you are going to use it on them, but is good for interrupts), and if you want to count it, Sleep Dart. Our root is only for 2s, and has a 15s CD, nothing compared to your 9s slow with a 9s CD. So we do have better CCs, not amazingly better, but yes, better overall.

 

7: First, the dot isn't instant, it kind of double casts at the beginning at times, it takes about 1.5s to get to the person and effect them. The first tick doesn't occur until 3s after the needle hits them. So if they are 30m away from you, the first tick won't happen for about 4 to 4.5s after the cast. It's a good dot doubt, but whenever we dot someone, we can't go into stealth, which we rely on FAR more then a sin does.

 

8: We have 30m range on our basic attack, which is weak. Besides that, we are never going to be 30m away firing at someone cause all our useful attacks are <10m. Besides that, firing at someone puts us into combat, which means we can't stealth, which once again, puts us at a disadvantage. Operatives want to be in stealth, we will not be firing 30m away, the only time I do is when I see a person 15m+ away, being ganged up by 2 of my team, and I know he's going to die fast, I just shoot to help (and earn extra slayer kill). The only thing I might use semi-constantly at 30m is Corrosive Dart, and that's only if there's 4+ people to dart, and I have Cloaking Screen off CD.

 

9: It roots for 2s and it has a 15s CD (This is when spec'd). Your slow is 9s and has a 9s cooldown. Our root (Severe Tendon FYI) only does 300 kinetic damage, compared to your Force Slow's 600+ kinetic damage (a decent amount). So yeah, your slow is 2 or 3x better then our root. I'd take your slow any day of the week over Severe Tendon.

 

Now it's time for me to add a few things. First and most importantly, you guys a have <30% bonus attack (Assassinate), which is great bonus for fighting out of stealth or even getting the jump on someone. Your Force Speed is a huge advantage cause it's great for flag running, catching up to someone, getting away from someone, getting to a door/node to stop a arm/flip, and I'm sure there's other things I may not know about that it's good for. You have a base regeneration rate (unlike ours which changes based on how much energy we have) and far better way to keep your energy, such as getting 10 force occasionally for hitting people, 25% bonus out of stealth, and all the abilities that lower the amount your attacks cost. You have Recklessness, which increases your next 2 Force attacks crit chance by 60%, combine that with how great your procs can be for shock and discharge, you can easily get a 90% crit chance with them (and of course 50% bonus crit damage) and have a HUGE burst, far more then anything Operative could do, just less often. Stack relics/adrenales/stims with that, and you probably have 100% chance to crit and 120% bonus crit damage easily for 2 force attacks (Shock then Discharge in a row). Your Overcharged Saber is far more useful since it gives a huge damage bonus, and can be used every 90s compared to our cast time Ressurection (can be interrupted at that) that has a 5m cooldown.

 

Overall, each class has their own advantages, but Sin has more wide spread viability right now then Operative. Operatives have a great burst, and some good cc control, but other then that, they are very weak. They have a very specific roll to play, and are not good at anything else other then that roll. Sin's are not a stealth based class, like Operatives are, which is where I think is why you thought Operatives were so much better. Sins have stealth to use, to get the jump and get a advantage on their opponent, but they do the brunt of their damage out of stealth, not coming out of stealth. Anyway, everything I said is obviously from my viewpoint, so you may still think differently then me, even if you did manage to get through this whole post. I'm basing my experience off of having raised a PT/Operative/Assassin/Sage to 50 and Jugg/Sentinel/Commando to 45. I've played quite a few of my friend's Sin's as well.

 

 

Sorry for the long post >.>

Edited February 17, 2012 by Athilias

[Nwalmaer]

Ath, You expressed your views very well, with good detail.

 

As an assasin," deception spec", our out of stealth damage is not very good. Our abilities are dependant on procs. Those procs are not automatic. You might build a static charge once every three attacks and exploit weakness seems to require at least 3 attacks to apply and sometimes more.

 

Our out of stealth damage isnt really that good. Maul for some reason when behind a stunned target has a 1 in 5 chance of saying "required effect not met" or somthing like that. Assasinate works great when a level 49 uses it against a level 20 in pvp. Once level 50, if you want to use it as a finisher, you wait til the target is below 10%.

 

90% of the time if we pop all our damage boost we get a 2.5k to 3.6k discharge and then a 1k to 2.3k shock.

 

It takes a very long time for assasins to restealth and get out of combat. Sometimes up to 38 seconds of hiding.

 

Operatives can heal during combat and can still crit for up to 5.1k with a single attack and follow that up with a 3.7k crit plus a dot and thats during a so called prolong fight if you survive the burst. The heal I speak of is an ability not a stim which makes that heal even better.

 

If our abilities actually did damage and the procs would build or apply to the targets, I would completly agree with you. But trying to wait for 5 static charges to apply for the bonus isnt gonna work. Most of the time we use discharge and our other abilities as soon as they are up.

 

One thing I will say on a positive note, I think voltic slash is the only ability that actually does the 600 - 800 damage the tooltip says it will.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Nwalmaer

[LordbishopX]

I really think a number of peeps discount the boost regen on force we get from coming out of stealth along with using blackout every cd it helps a ton.

[Xaearth]

I dunno what game you folks are playing but it sure as hell isn't the same one I'm playing.

 

Operatives have absolute **** for sustained damage compared to Assassins.

 

And what's this about their burst when already out of stealth being comparable to ours? Where are you getting this from?

 

On the other hand, if a Deception Assassin builds up their procs then bursts a different target than the one they're focusing on, that burst most certainly is comparable to the Operative's burst opener out of stealth.

[LordbishopX]

I dunno what game you folks are playing but it sure as hell isn't the same one I'm playing.

 

Operatives have absolute **** for sustained damage compared to Assassins.

 

And what's this about their burst when already out of stealth being comparable to ours? Where are you getting this from?

 

On the other hand, if a Deception Assassin builds up their procs then bursts a different target than the one they're focusing on, that burst most certainly is comparable to the Operative's burst opener out of stealth.

 

I love my ops and SIN and faced some ops that I never want to see again in a back alley lol. I hate to think how bad arse they be without the nerf shuddder....

Edited February 17, 2012 by LordbishopX

[Reveillere]

wow, some really slow guys in this thread.. however i agree with op if ur comparing burst and dps utility, however the assassin has some more defensive utilities... the assassin/shadow could use a buff imo

[Lowerydro]

I dunno what game you folks are playing but it sure as hell isn't the same one I'm playing.

 

Operatives have absolute **** for sustained damage compared to Assassins.

 

And what's this about their burst when already out of stealth being comparable to ours? Where are you getting this from?

 

On the other hand, if a Deception Assassin builds up their procs then bursts a different target than the one they're focusing on, that burst most certainly is comparable to the Operative's burst opener out of stealth.

 

There is an Op on my server I pvp with regularly. Since Ops are short on utility he basically hunts down people in FULL HEALTH and picks them off where they can't get support.

 

I will get 2nd - 4th in damage in most games playing the objective and come out with around 150k - 250k, in those same games he easily tops 500k. Now I don't judge effectiveness in damage done, but he is effective because he finishes people, not just damaging people getting heals. He stops people that could otherwise stop our ball carrier or heal their team.

 

Now if you talk about sustained damage... he is doing far more (twice as much) as anyone else in those rounds over the course of the ~12 minute game.

 

He is really an exception, good gear and a good player, but when you talk about pure damage an Op can easily outdo other classes and can do it all round long.