Theme Park vs Sandbox, What Do The Players Think?

[RangerBeo]

In my opinion, the truly great games in the future will have both. I prefer sandbox allowing the players to drive the community rather than being led around from quest giver to quest giver and isolated in instances. I like MMO's that feel like living worlds with constant change coming from what the players are doing in the game rather than everyone just waiting for new content from the Developers to drive thier enjoyment. I do think however the most successful games in the future will provide the flexibility to appeal players who enjoy to both aspects of MMO's. Edited May 29, 2012 by RangerBeo

[Jandia]

The answers you're going to get are automatically going to be biased because you're asking on the forum of a themepark game. Only reasonable place for a themepark vs sandbox debate is a neutral forum for MMOs in general.

 

In my opinion, the truly great games in the future will have both.

It's impossible to be both. They're mutually exclusive opposites. That's like saying something is both hot and cold.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Jandia

[Kaonis]

It's impossible to be both. They're mutually exclusive opposites. That's like saying something is both hot and cold.

 

How so? Their not opposites at all, their just different game designs that people arbitrarily compete against one another. You can very well have a game that's a themepark mentality, but have some level of sandbox designs strewn about. Even something as simple as them adding in guild ships with the ability to decorate them pretty freely would be a sandbox element in a theme park game.

 

I think it'll become apparent over the years that the best companies are the ones who realize these are not mutually exclusive mechanics, and can be blended together in varying degrees to create something that has good content, but has other gameplay that is open ended to the users to keep them interested in the game between content updates.

[RangerBeo]

Its very simple to have elements of both in a number of ways. Theme park while leveling and then sandbox at end game....or any combination thereof. The entire game does not have to be one style. I believe you need to look no further than Guild Wars 2 and its approach toward moving MMO's away from conventional thinking. Yes there are many things about GW2 which are indeed like other MMO's but ...its the variety and appeal that it will have to many types of players in so many different ways that will make it a very great success in my opinion

[Star-ranger]

SWTOR is on the far end of the spectrum when it comes to Themepark designs. The class story lines drive a character's progression through a specific set of level based maps. Once you complete a planet there's really not much reason to go back there. SWTOR really is like Disneyland's Astro Blasters--ride through the content killing things as you go.

 

SWG was the other extreme of the spectrum : Super Sandbox. Originally there was minimal content..pretty much only environments with spawns in it. I don't count the mission terminals (what a fiasco). SWG was a blank canvas

 

What's really needed to makea game a success is a mix of elements for different types of play styles. Character story arcs, environmental content that people can find by exploring, global story arcs, scalable spawns, social content, PvP with dynamic goals (like RvR), crafting which has a meaningful part in the ecconomy, random events & story arcs, character skills and gear that influence content and environment, branching dialogue with different outcomes, random maps for some locations, mini-games, and in the case of this game: dynamic 3D space combat with training missions, set missions, story arcs, random events & free fly explorable areas, PvP missions and battle zones.

[darkbebe]

I wish this game can have theme park contents in the sandbox world. Then people can explore the world and discover contents by their self. I didn't pay attention and explore the world at all when I did questing. I just went to the marker place and killed mobs and went back. I even didn't see the reason to explore the world...

Plus, if the questing system has progression like current system, it's so hard to find a mate or group to play with. Because they need to be in the same progression and playing solo is pretty easy and fast. I didn't see the reason to play with other people instead of heroics and flashpoints. So this is the reason I felt this game is the solo game with some multilayer contents.

 

Personally, the main story line can be railed like current system and some side quests or planet quests as well. However I would like to see some contents which we don't need to share the quest progressions and need to find and solve by myself. It doesn't need to be like most of quests.

For example, As for my smuggler I want to go inside of random npc's house or apartment and grab something or slice the computer. You will get darkside point through that but you may able to get money or recipe or something useful.

For my sith warrior, I would like to join to the jedi invasion battle to protect the fleet. you may need to use the space ship to attack some ships and get into the enemy's ship and defeat jedis. This can be the mix of open world space mission and open world PVE content. Some people do only space mission and some people do only ground combat in the ship but it's ok. They just do whatever they want.

However it should not be dailies. If it's dailies people start to feel its mandatory and they have to do otherwise there is no reward. So, those kind of sandbox contents should have rewards without finishing quests. And helping random players should be rewarded in this system. this is the one of opportunity to do MMO.

 

The problem of the theme park system game is people eat new contents in few days and get hungry again. So dev team needs to keep feeding in short term. And the problem of the sandbox contents is too much freedom. Giving too much freedom to players make them confuse. I personally don't see the problem but some people don't like unnecessary things and they want to play efficiently. If it's all unnecessary, some people start to say "nothing to do".

So, I would say why can't we have both.

Edited May 29, 2012 by darkbebe

[Shayde]

Just because the game is a sandbox, doesn't mean it has to be devoid of content.

 

That's where this argument goes wrong. Just because there's a sandbox, doesn't mean you have no toys in it.

 

TOR grafted with SWG's housing, crafting and other social tools would be the perfect game. That's why so many SWGheads wished TOR would be SWG 2.0.

 

Creating your own part in the game world is what keeps people playing, it is what creates communities. It is why so many stuck with SWG even after $OE destroyed the game itself. It is because they created their own place in the world. We were unique because there were so many choices in character creation, clothing looked different, we could customize our home and ships. I miss my character in SWG and I miss my friends in SWG.

 

I'm barely invested at all in my TOR character, because she looks just like the other 50 Zab chicks running around.

[pooks]

I agree with the posted who stated that he has no vested interest in the story/era. I have 4 level 50s and am bored. I am sick of having no one to play with when I flag my LFG and spam in general to try and do dailies with another life form. The dailies are boring. Leveling through the same content / planets is boring. The same quests. Boring.

 

It's been weeks and I still just space bar through the dialog. I don't care. Just waiting for guildees to level to maybe we can do something as a guild.

 

There is NO community what so ever. I am 100% unsatisfied with the game yet stil play because of guildees.

 

I am looking forward to the repopulation sand box MMO which will have many swg elements like creature handling, trapping and bio-engineering. Also looking forward to the swgproject nge emulator where they say if I kept my character folder that I might be able to revive my toons!

 

I am very disappointed with this game. I want to play swg or some other sand box where I can play and not just fart around.

[DyasAlue]

...

What's really needed to makea game a success is a mix of elements for different types of play styles. Character story arcs, environmental content that people can find by exploring, global story arcs, scalable spawns, social content, PvP with dynamic goals (like RvR), crafting which has a meaningful part in the ecconomy, random events & story arcs, character skills and gear that influence content and environment, branching dialogue with different outcomes, random maps for some locations, mini-games, and in the case of this game: dynamic 3D space combat with training missions, set missions, story arcs, random events & free fly explorable areas, PvP missions and battle zones.

 

TL/DR: I suggest how to have themepark and Sandbox in one. With randomness.

 

Ok, I picked your post mainly for the things highlighted above. I was thinking.

• Scalable spawns
  
  • This would be great. There would be no reason to play the game a certain way. Want to start your adventure an Tat? No problem. All the mobs you encounter will scale.
    
  • Some areas might have scaled elites.
    
  • Some could have scaled champions.
    

  [*]Scalable groups

  • New to the game and went to Corillia for the first time? Join a 36 and 50 who happen to be there. You being 5 make the group average 30. Mobs are level 30, everyone gets level 30 skills.
    
  • You no longer "train skills". You get them at level.
    
  • A 5 raised to 30 will have skills, but no expertise. that you only gain by leveling.
    
  • A 50 lowered to 30 will have skills, but only expertise up to 30.
    

  [*]This works with, Scalable gear

  • All drops are "similar"
    
  • You get crafting drops
    
  • You get equipment shell drops
    
  • You get equipment mods, armoring, enhancements, augment drops (Fillers)
    
  • All drops are BOE. I know, this is mind blowing; but EQ1 did it on RP servers. It just changed the economy; it didn't break it. This means if you PvP you can get whatever gear you want. You might have to pay for it.
    
  • All drops are "unidentified", except gray trash drops. I feel this game does good on not filling your inventory with gray drops.
    
    • When you go to town you will have vendors to identify your drops. Either crafting, shells, or fillers.
      
    • There will be a tier of vendor per 5 levels.
      
    • When you identify the item, you get something that fits that level.
      
    • Don't get the item you want? Have another set of "barter/crafting" vendors that will trade in items you don't want. This is so you can always make progress. You wanted aim but you keep getting others. The barter/crafting vendor can make you an aim, but it requires say 20 pieces of other items as the material to craft it. This way you never "stall" out on progress.
      

  [*]Random dungeons/buildings/encampments

  • These would be instanced
    
  • Would be around all worlds
    
  • All instance difficulty scales to group size (by even numbers: 2,4,6,8...)
    
  • All loot scales to group size (by even numbers: 2,4,6,8...))
    
  • PvP
    
    • Not sure this would work completely.
      
    • Main Items dropped here can have a "purple" classification and be higher rating.
      
    • More "World" PvP, but world in bottle.
      
    • Even if you enter from one planet, due to it instance; will pull server(s) wide
      
    • Level of instance is average level of everyone involved. Level 5 can PvP with level 50, all averaged out as shown in group average.
      

    [*]Raid

    • Easy enough, you can have a set story for each one in a location. Say EC from the fleet. Bosses can stay same, but dungeon itself is different. Reason to explore? Treasure chests/find the boss. I think like Diablo does.
      
    • Main Items dropped here can have a "purple" classification and be higher rating.
      
    • Level of instance is average level of everyone involved. Level 5 can Raid with level 50, all averaged out as shown in group average.
      

    [*]PvE

    • Just a dungeon for loot.
      
    • No story involved, just random mobs and chests.
      
    • Main Items dropped here can have a "blue"
      
    • Level of instance is average level of everyone involved. Level 5 can PvE with level 50, all averaged out as shown in group average.
      

    [*]Quest

    • Dungeon for a quest you were given
      
    • This makes quests random
      
    • Yes eventually you will have done all the same "style" of quests, but random makes it better IMHO
      
    • No main items dropped, reward at quest. Reward can be more specific than random from "loot" dungeons.
      
    • Main reward classifications (green, blue, purple) are tied to quest you choose.
      
    • Level of instance is average level of everyone involved. Level 5 can Quest with level 50, all averaged out as shown in group average.
      

    [*]Main Arc

    • Consider this your class quest. Level of dungeon is set to level of person on main arc.
      
    • Anyone can help anyone.
      
    • No loot drops for person on main arc. Reward for person on main arc is given at turn in/or special depending were they are on main arc.
      
    • There is no planetary order for main arc. Not sure how this would work, but don't like that you are tied I guess maybe the first and last planet in arc are set, but you don't have an order to do them. Want your wookie first? Go there. That way you aren't forced to get a special reward at 50 when you want it at 10.
      
    • Loot drops for all who help person. This encourages level 50's to help out a 5. They might get loot.
      
    • Loot weighted to custom shells. This encourages level 50's to get "just that look" and help out 5's.
      

 

One last thing, for the gear shells. There is no heavy, medium, light kinds. Bioware is adding this in all ready, but reason I say this is because I think it is silly you can't hide. In the movies they wore trooper outfits (heavy) but they were a jedi (light) and smuggler (medium). I hate being stuck with things.

 

Crafting: exact same gear as end PvE and end PvP. Why do we force the best gear from raiding? PvP? Crafting? Make it so you can get it three ways, 4 if you count questing and eventually turning in enough to get fillers you need. Game creators say they don't want someone who raids being able to step in and PvP compete? Why? If you make all options take relatively the same time why are you telling me how to play? That is themepark, and giving the options makes it sandy. Hell, it everything is BoE than you can just be a stock broker and play the Auction house if that is all you want. Add in pod racing mini games and you could even start a race league and have bookies. You a stock broker turned bookie? You have the bank for it.

 

I guess we all ready have fillers, we all ready have shells, bioware is adding no difference between heavy/light. They could make all end fillers similar. Drops are easy to fix going forward. Only thing I see hard is random dungeon. So even if they do everything else you can play as you won't while you enjoy your rides.

[Vlaxitov]

Just like "RVR" became codeword for almost zero content, terms liike "sandbox" and "themepark" also give game developers a perfect excuse to be lazy and go light on depth & content in their games.

[Goretzu]

there is a reason that SWG did not have these huge subscriber numbers that all the SWG fanboys seem to think will flock to this game if it was turned into SWG 2

 

give it a rest already, this is NOT SWG 2, and feeble attempts to turn it into this version of that game are fail

 

that game sucked, there, it needed to be said, move on with your lives and stop trying to force everyone else who does NOT want to play SWG 2 into joining your holy crusade to remake this game in that image

 

So you think that because you didn't like SWG, that nothing from SWG should be added to SWTOR?

 

It's a bit late for that.

 

But more importantly why would the good things from SWG make SWTOR a worse (not a better) game?

 

 

 

 

Are you really trying to say that say a JTL space expansion for SWTOR would somehow "suck" simply because it somehow must suck?

Edited May 30, 2012 by Goretzu

[Vlaxitov]

there is a reason that SWG did not have these huge subscriber numbers that all the SWG fanboys seem to think will flock to this game if it was turned into SWG 2

 

I love it when sub numbers are brought up.

 

WoW is the Green Day of MMOs and you guys are kidding yourselves if you think Green Day turned that many people into punk rock fans.

 

So please realize you're being delusional when you look at WoW players as part of the market share for all mmos.

[BoMbY]

One last thing, for the gear shells. There is no heavy, medium, light kinds. Bioware is adding this in all ready, but reason I say this is because I think it is silly you can't hide. In the movies they wore trooper outfits (heavy) but they were a jedi (light) and smuggler (medium). I hate being stuck with things.

 

Well, that's one point I would like to pick out. I don't like the idea of having a piece of cloth which counts as heavy armor (like they are planning now). Why can't you just wear/use anything you want, but unless you're trained with it, you just don't get the real benefit or get some penalty. Let's say you're wearing heavy armor, but are not trained for it, you can only move slowly, and your GCD gets up.

Edited May 30, 2012 by BoMbY

[Goretzu]

Well, that's one point I would like to pick out. I don't like the idea of having a piece of cloth which counts as heavy armor (like they are planning now). Why can't you just wear/use anything you want, but unless you're trained with it, you just don't get the real benefit or get some penalty. Let's say you're wearing heavy armor, but are not trained for it, you can only move slowly, and your GCD gets up.

 

Armour is a difficult one.

 

It shouldn't be, but it always seems to end up being so......... like the Monk nerf in EQ1 (although in the end the Devs admitted they had made a mistake with that).

 

Which is what I think a lot of people confuse; themepark with simplicity for the Devs. Moving away from an AC and weight based system to a light/medium/heavy system probably has much more to do with making life easier for the Devs than any consideration of Themepark/Sandbox.

 

Although an AC + weight system (and an attatched encumberment system) would be a much more "realistic" option.

[Skidrowbro]

I vote for a sandpark

[Dyvid]

I think this is less about wanting sandbox and more about wanting SWG2. Final Fantasy XIV had alot of the sandbox elements people say they want yet don't play it. Why? Simply because it's not Star Wars. Maybe it's time to accept TOR will never be Galaxies 2 and move on to something else.

[DiabloDoom]

I vote for a sandpark

 

No! That's where dogs are taken for a poop.

[Jederix]

I vote for a sandpark

 

Wrong. I think it should be a themebox instead.

[Goretzu]

I think this is less about wanting sandbox and more about wanting SWG2. Final Fantasy XIV had alot of the sandbox elements people say they want yet don't play it. Why? Simply because it's not Star Wars. Maybe it's time to accept TOR will never be Galaxies 2 and move on to something else.

 

You honestly wouldn't like to free-fly your space ship in an explorable galaxy? Maybe with atmospheric flight? (pretty unlikely admittedly)

 

Or have massive RvR (or RvRvR if they copy Rift/GW2)?

 

Or have a more indepth crafting system?

 

Or have houses (or ships) you can decorate as you please?

 

Or one of the many other "sandy" things they could add to SWTOR?

[Descent]

Well, the only MMO I've stuck with to any great length was SWG - a prime example of a sandbox MMO. For sure it had its flaws, but that was as a result of a skeletal development team more than anything. Theme Park MMOs seem to be rather stagnant and lifeless by nature. Sandbox MMOs promote communities to thrive through fundamental ideas of economy/socialising - as the activities of game are dependant on you, the player, rather than a developer spoon feeding you content haphazardly.

[DiabloDoom]

You honestly wouldn't like to free-fly your space ship in an explorable galaxy?

 

I certainly wouldn't, Do you know how vast a galaxy is? The only way to travel is hyperspace and you can't turn corners in hyperspace.

[Kindara]

Sandbox without a doubt.

Being able to do what you want without having to go down a linear path is a rather obvious choice

 

Full Sandbox games have been proven not to work any better business or design wise than themeparks. It needs to be both. The challenge is the time that goes into designing a system thats balanced between the two or atleast a comfortable mix with a budget and time frame that makes sense. Some elements of sandbox games are popular even with those that prefer themepark and some are not. Sandbox purists hate anything themepark so its kinda hard to figure out what would make them happy since they tend to be overly blind to other people's playstyles.

 

I honestly dont want to LIVE in a game and most real sandbox games really rquire that for you to feel as if you've made any progress. Hence the reason they're completely niche.

 

But I always enjoyed things like crafting actual houses for people to see, real exploration, and of course more indepth crafting systems across the board. I dont how ever miss free for all combat, skill point free for all systems, live action combat, and sitting around for hours trying to decide what to do once I've explored a good bit and know going out any further means getting ganked.

 

Right now the challenge & risks of a really indepth mix of both is to high for most companies that have the talent and monetary support in order to really pull it off and make it "big" to even fathom. Hell even Bethesda is going traditional...they're following SWTOR's format from the sounds of it except they have 3 factions.

Edited May 30, 2012 by Kindara

[Dyvid]

You honestly wouldn't like to free-fly your space ship in an explorable galaxy? Maybe with atmospheric flight? (pretty unlikely admittedly).

 

Or have massive RvR (or RvRvR if they copy Rift/GW2)?

 

Or have a more indepth crafting system?

 

Or have houses (or ships) you can decorate as you please?

 

Or one of the many other "sandy" things they could add to SWTOR?

Sand Box - a style of game where the objectives are not predefined by the developer, you are given a world with some minimal predefined rulesets and you make your own game in it. Like a childs sandbox, which is just a box of sand, the actual game comes from the childs imagination and doesn’t have a set objectives.

 

Nothing you listed is sandbox, it's things from SWG you liked that you wanted in TOR.

Edited May 30, 2012 by Dyvid

[Ravand]

LOL, this is why I say most players today use sandbox as a talking point and dont know what Sandbox is

 

I havent playe dLotR but I have friends that do and nothing they tell me and screen shots Ive seen suggests its sandbox

Age of Conan is not sandbox

WOW is NOT Sandbox (lol, WOW is designed off of EQ and then dumbed down, there is nothing sandbox about WOW or EQ, both are founded solidly in the themepark design model)

 

Eve is sandbox

 

But while we at it

 

Lord of the Rings is NOT going strong and is the very definition of niche market!

Age of Conan is NOT going strong and is the very definition of niche market

WOW is going very strong still but as stated before, its not sandbox no matter how hard you try to say otherwise

 

EVE has always been, and remains today a niche market game.

 

So not sure what your trying to say here with such huge errors in opinion stated from the get go.

 

Fact is Sandbox has not faired well in the MMORPG genre.

 

UO opened strong and was #1 as long as it had no modern competition.

Soon as EQ opened up, its player base bailed on UO over night at a astonding rate forcing UO to make game design changes after the fact. It never regained its prominence again. Oh it lasted for many years as a low income game because its opening box sales covered its budget costs. But its revenues have been in the basement ever since EQ opened up to compete.

 

SWG lost 70% of its paid subscribers in their first month of playing, that number rose to 80% by the 3rd month of people playing. The 20% that remained to be slowly dwindled away at with the CU, Village, NGE and other updates like to think they were this strong force of hundreads and hundreads of thousands of players, but the released numbers back then dont support those claims. SWG was not a STRONG presence for long at all.

 

there was anouther PVP centric game that was Sandbox (name escapes me right now) that was a complete failure from the get go. Shadowbane, thats it. Interesting concept that no one even cared about.

 

Some Sandbox game Id never heard of just shut down according to MMORPG.com newsletter because of no interest. It was only a year old.

 

Really only Sandbox game enjoying long term success is Eve Online and thats cause Eve targetted small audience and built a very inexpensive game so its been easy for them to slow expand. By AAA MMORPG rating, EVE right now would be classified a failure (and EVE Online at its highest ever subscription levels). The number is fantastic and amazing for Eve but Eve is a low budget small picture game. Most Theme Park MMORPGs release and develop as LARGE Budget Large expectation games. There is a vast difference.

 

Now Im not saying all Sandbox concepts and designs are failures, some are interesting and should be expanded on (though I dont expect you understand what Sandbox designs Im thinking/speaking of).

 

Fact is Sandbox has not been embraced by the mass genre subscription base and probably never will be until the technology advances to a point where Sandbox the logical extention to go to. Right now Sandbox is still limited by someone elses imagination, not by your own. Which makes it a mighty small and limited sandbox still. When Technology gets to the point of the virtual societies in Caprica or the tech level of say Star Treks Holodeck, then Sandbox will explode on the scene and no one willbe interested in Themepark anymore.

 

But until then, its better to be limited by theme park thats fully developed and formed then just empty open space.

 

and again, WOW, AoC, NOT Sandbox. Not even remotely.

 

 

Eve online is nearly 10 years old. Its shiny and graphically updated as a game of 2011.

The world created by the player community cant be compared to nothing else in the world.

Its the most complex MMO out there, and the only MMO that is

Brains > over hours spent playing.

Its subs have risen steadily over the last 10 years. and sincerely i think it will be here long after WoW and all the other MMOs have turned to dust.

The only bad thing is that you need brains to play it. So it limits the available player base.

Its to hard, in a Darwinian sense to a new or stupid player.

Its the only reason it doesn't have as many subs.

Edited May 30, 2012 by Ravand

[mattgyver]

It will save this game to make it a hybrid. SWTOR has a modular design with all the possibility for planets. Take a poll of users who want this, take a portion of those subs only and use it for Sandbox content.

 

That way the Flat Earthers can't complain about time and money spent for content that would confuse them with changing day/night and too many things to do.