Time to end Biochem reusables

[ButterStrawKid]

so this is a matter of " great i cant afford to keep buying stims and what not! nerf biochem! " if you're 50 you dont even use credits for anything else besides reapir and buffs. if you cant afford it do dailies.

[Sky_walkerPL]

no:

 

cybertech: resuable grenades BoP

synth/armormech: augmented rakata belt/bracers BoP

biochem resuable consumables BoP

artifice Rakata relics BoP

 

..armsmech... the poor child that actually needs a buff, like the bis BoP offhands or something.

Oh... You are plain wrong here.

Here is the reality:

 

Cybertech: reusable granades

synth/armormech: augmented rakata belt/bracers BoP

artifice Rakata relics BoP

armsmech: augmented orange weapons bop

 

Biochem: augmented rakata belt/bracers, rakata relics, augmented orange weapons AND reusable consumables.

 

You see - biochemist can get everything besides cybertech-required granades AND get all the reusable perks. I seen players running with such crazy set so it's not just theorysrafting, besides: some of them even post on this forum.

 

ALSO keep in mind that augmented belt and bracers give NOWHERE NEAR THE CONSTANT BONUS OF REUSABLE STIMS.

While Rakata relics can be taken from Hard Operations, so they shouldn't be on the list in a first place unless we plan to add also the purple lvl50 craftable implants biochemists get from ops-dropped recipes.

 

Sorry but no matter what you say: biochem is in huge, IMMERSE advantage both: in pve and pvp.

Entire end-game crafting needs to be wiped out and build from the beginning cause current system is a pure joke.

[Broom]

So what is the big complaint? Biochem is more useful than the other crafts? Well, why not allow the purple biochem products to be used by those who do not have the skill themselves? Make them bind on equip, and hey presto, equality. Or just give everyone the Biochem skill for free.

 

But doing away with the reusables entirely? I'm sorry, but that would be a very bad thing. Have you ever done the math on Biochem? Do you know how many ingredients go into even ONE medpack? It is a mistake to believe trade in these could ever be commercially viable, the sheer amount of gathering involved to keep just ONE pvper in stims and med packs would be staggering.

 

And what would be the point? Ruin other people's fun? It would, I assure you. For my tank, re-useable medpacks made the difference between quitting in frustration and enjoyable gameplay. Tried the gathering-and-craft-your-own thing, but the main ingredient needed always proved rare at the levels at which you actually needed it. And since I was always broke, buying vendor medpacks - let alone ingredients - was REALLY not an option.

 

The SW:TOR crafting system is inherently broken. There is too much loot, there is no need for most crafted items during endgame, there are too many bind-on-pickup items (BOP crafted speeders???), materials are too rare... just don't make it worse by crying for nerfs for the ONE craft that does provide something useful past 50.

[Wolfiepriest]

I would like to mention all of you are all cry cry reuseable cry cry free, but have any of you actually realized how stupid you are being.. there not free to start off, you need to get mats that cost like 4k per 2 blue mats half the time to so the cost of lets say this none re use able is already about 10k from gathering the mats needed, and you all have the nerve to say nerf it?, thirdly at 50 everyone can make at least 100k credits a day thats absalute min you can get a day, hell i make 100k a day and I'm not 50 yet so please don't say how one person is rich while others are poor all 50's are rich, fourth they need to seriously buff the other crafting not nerf something thats almost useless thanks to everyone crying over it, I think the armor makers should be able to make something that can go on a piece of gear like an enchantment type deal thats equal to these re use able stuff your all complaining about maybe have cyber tech be able to make a extra slot in a single piece of gear for another augment, things like these should even it out but stop with calling for nerfs all the time you're only making your self look bad and getting a craft to become as useless as the rest, as for money making i've seen all crafts make money i've seen gathering makeing money too so stop useing that as an excuse if you don't wanna pay for biochem make an alt and get biochem lvled useing your gathering and make your own stims and medpacks theres 8 slots for toons, you have no excuse to change your craft, you can also make your own stuff to save credits which are easily gotten, i hope bioware sees this and takes my advice on the crafting buffs it would be a good idea to try and even it out somewhat so people can enjoy whatever craft they want, and for those that go omg this is op this month and switch you'll do that no matter what craft it is and complain so i beg you please stop Edited February 21, 2012 by Wolfiepriest

[Rumblegut]

To OP - No.

 

Not unless gear is breakable and has to be replaced, not repaired.

[skidrows]

A possible solution would be that Purple pots you can use 10times and then bio players can make refills that don’t need “purple” items, they cost as blue pots cost or something like that, that way you can make a lot off money with Bio and it still is not that hard to make the refills.

[Suntar]

Re-usables was always going to be a winner for high level meds, stims adrenals when the costs of mats are so high.

 

Made more so by the fact that other crew skills are all a varying shade of useless.

 

Simple solution though make all resuables not require biochem, then all would have them.

 

Biochem would still have its BOP rakata implants, RE purple implants and blue single use items that are better than the epic resuables. Which would put it on a par with most other crew skills.

 

I find it amazing that the devs have discounted this solution.

Edited February 21, 2012 by Suntar

[Pherdnut]

I have 8 characters on one server. I'm running each craft. I did not switch everybody to biochem. It's really nice for PVE and leveling and yes, I'm typically stimmed up more because it costs nothing for the biochem character, but at endgame I would switch to blues for the boosted performance and in PVP it doesn't really help you for heals. Quite frankly, I don't find any of the crew skills useless. I can see why Biochem is popular for the convenience-factor but as far as being more competitive, I don't see what it does there.

 

At end-game the make-stuff skills are only going to be good for selling things. End-game is end-game. Once you have everything you want, you can either keep expanding your fortune, or making stuff for new characters. Or you can switch to Biotech for the convenience and then QQ royally when new schems for other items become available forcing you to reset your crew skill again.

 

Or you can... wait for it... PLAY MORE THAN ONE CHARACTER and gain some freaking perspective. But seriously, when you're at 50, and you have the gear you want for you and all your companions, what is it crew skills are supposed to do for you before a content expansion?

[Elaithe]

At first I was like: Wow it would really suck and I'd be really upset if they removed reusables, thats why I love Biochem!

 

But than I was like: Oh, I guess it wouldn't be so bad.

 

To be honest I'd be Biochem either way, it's just the proffesion I go in just about any MMO.

 

How about this! We can make reusables of slightly WORSE Stims/Medpacks/Adrenals! That way we still have to make the better stuff for ourselves for raids and PvP but we can still use SOMETHING all the time when running around and doing Dailies or w/e. I'd be happy with a solution like that. Any thoughts?

[Niconogood]

I totally agree with OP. Either make the reusables available to all and maybe reserve some slightly stronger versions for the biochems or remove them from the game, cause atm its totally overpowered compared to other professions.

 

I have armormech, and actually got close to monopoly on level 50 purple gear for both smuggler and trooper (basically due to everyone else being biochem), and even Im gonna switch to biochem as soon as i can afford it. The viability is just too great.

 

For every heal i need it costs me at least 3-5k, for every 2 hours of gametime it costs me 20-30k in exotech stims. During a long day of 8 hours game time thats at least

150k+ credits I have to spend in stuff biochemists get for free. AND they get stronger versions.

 

Even though Im for sure the armormech with the most artifact lvl 50 schematics on my server/faction, actually also earning some credits (to just be able to afford my stimabuse) Ive just found it not viable compared to the advantages of biochem.

 

Anyone not going biochem at this point, after we now actually know the ups and downs with the different professions is just plain stupid imo.

[SYNAGORE]

BW stop listening to these QQ crybabies (Vocal Minority). They cry for a nerf and you give it to them, over and over and over. By doing this you are ruining your own game in record time. BW you cannot please them-its impossible.

 

PVP Fact:

 

RED PVP adrenals > Biochem Adrenals (cant use them together anymore)

Green PVP (Healing) > Reuseable medpack

The stims are all it has left.

 

Crafting Facts:

 

Armormech=Worthless

Artifice=Worthless

Armstech=Worthless

Synthweaving=Worthless

Cybertech=Almost Worthless

Biochem= Awesome>(nerf)>Good>(nerf)>pretty good>(nerf)>alright>>>Hey maybe another nerf so its worthless as well.

 

The fact remains that other crafting skills are just worthless, but a lot of people want to break the only craft that still works. The real answer is to buff the other trades, however you could just take the QQers advice and make it useless. For me...I wouldnt craft anything at all if this was done.

 

 

 

 

The big question is if Bio-Chem is so @#$%^& OP...Why are you not Bio-Chem?????

Edited February 21, 2012 by SYNAGORE

[Bloodcharged]

So what is the big complaint? Biochem is more useful than the other crafts? Well, why not allow the purple biochem products to be used by those who do not have the skill themselves? Make them bind on equip, and hey presto, equality.

 

Sure, but go ahead and make all the other crafted stuff BoE as well then. Like the Rakata Belt/Bracers you can get from Synthweaving and Armormech.

[Broom]

Sure, but go ahead and make all the other crafted stuff BoE as well then. Like the Rakata Belt/Bracers you can get from Synthweaving and Armormech.

 

You'd hear no complaints from me. I find it bordering on insanity that e.g. crafted speeders are bind on pickup.

[GnatB]

What are you talking about? Other crafting classes make BoP items, so what's the problem?

 

When you craft a piece of armor or a speeder or a weapon.. is it reusable? I.E. does it last forever? THE ANSWER IS YES. So again, what's the problem?

 

The problem? EVERYBODIES weapons or armor or speeder is reuseable and doesn't go away. Only the biochemists special item doesn't.

 

And yes, I'm aware that other crafting classes can make BoP items.

1. I never said that was a good idea either. It isn't. NO class should make BoP items.

2. The BoP items they can make isn't superior. It lasts just as long, (i.e. the other stuff is just as reuseable) and there are roughly equivelent other items out there. (i.e. stuff with 58 mods in it)

 

So, to bring biochem to parity, either remove the reuseable from biochem Or make storebought/dropped stuff that is just as good that is reuseable as well. (or, simply remove the "biochem" restriction on the stuff so anybody can buy and use it with enough creds).

 

Now, adding vendor buyable/dropped stuff that is just as being able to get stuff just as good as synthweaving stuff from vendors/drops hurts synthweaving. Removing the restriction *or* removing the reuseablity is the only real solution.

 

No, it doesn't work for everyone. It works for everyone who doesn't want to have biochem. What's the incentive to be biochem then, when you can just buy everything biochem has to offer?

As a biochem, can I buy the BoP items other crafters make?

 

NO?!?!? Then how the hell do you suppose what you say is in any way logical, whatsoever?

 

Uhm, yes. you can buy the BoP items other crafters make, or the rough equivelent thereof. Orange item w 58 mods. And, of course, the BoP items other crafters make shouldn't be BoP either.

[Akella]

So from what we've gathered at this point, the issue is clearly economics. The only advantage biochem has over anyone else is a reusable medpack that isn't as good as the consumable blue medpack, and a reusable stim that isn't as good as the blue exotech versions *which requires a lot of mats but that's another matter.

 

From my experience and the experience, quotes and discussions by numerous other players on these forums, credits are easy to make. From talking with guildies about pvp matches, they have credits rolling in. One guildie made 200k credits yesterday just doing pvp matches.

 

So now the only thing to do to biochem is to remove the reusable component off of the subpar stims, subpar medpack, and the adrenal which is equivalent to consumable.

 

The other professions are just as viable if not more so than biochem at this point. You can craft your orange gear with augment slots, do 2 dailies and easily have enough credits to buy a stim that persists through death. Someone else stated earlier that they had to buy 10 stims to use during a match. Why on earth would you waste money on something that didn't persist through death in pvp? That is just poor planning. Apparently if you pvp a lot you get commendations and are able to purchase cheap medpacks on the pvp vendor. I'm still at a loss why cheap and readily available medpacks are considered so cost prohibitive compared to a lesser quality rakata medpack or level 48 reusable medpack.

Edited February 21, 2012 by Akella

[HanzBlix]

As someone with a 400 bio and a 400 armormech, I kind of have to agree with the OP. The reusable stims/adr/medpacks are literally like having extra abilities on your hotbar. You still get to make sick implants that take up two slots.

 

I made my alt a bio to supply my main with supplies. You would be able to make yourself stims and medpacks still, and they would sell because 75% of the population wouldn't be biotechs. I can tell you from my guild alone, the vast majority of us have either bio as our main or bio on an alt.

 

Many people in my guild dropped other crew skills just to make bio's. It's really just dumb and is still OP at end game. The only thing I could really get behind is reusable adrenals AND they should be tradeable. Too many mats for a 15 second buff, and they are cost prohibitive. Anyone without bio is generally not using these I would wager.

 

Armormech is fine as it is imo, it doesn't need a buff. It also falls in line with most other crew skills at this point that are also useful. I still use purple crafted implants, purple crafted ear slot that are better than a lot of the stuff I've seen drop or even columi stuff.

 

Yes I do have my crafted rakata bracers and belt, but it's not giving me that much statistically over the columi (since it's the weakest slots), and it can still be obtained through other means.

 

I'm sorry that having someone call out the truth about how OP a crew skill is hurts people feelings, but it makes more sense to nerf one profession than to make all the other equally OP.

[HanzBlix]

As someone with a 400 bio and a 400 armormech, I kind of have to agree with the OP. The reusable stims/adr/medpacks are literally like having extra abilities on your hotbar. You still get to make sick implants that take up two slots.

 

I made my alt a bio to supply my main with supplies. You would be able to make yourself stims and medpacks still, and they would sell because 75% of the population wouldn't be biotechs. I can tell you from my guild alone, the vast majority of us have either bio as our main or bio on an alt.

 

Many people in my guild dropped other crew skills just to make bio's. It's really just dumb and is still OP at end game. The only thing I could really get behind is reusable adrenals AND they should be tradeable. Too many mats for a 15 second buff, and they are cost prohibitive. Anyone without bio is generally not using these I would wager.

 

Armormech is fine as it is imo, it doesn't need a buff. It also falls in line with most other crew skills at this point that are also useful. I still use purple crafted implants, purple crafted ear slot that are better than a lot of the stuff I've seen drop or even columi stuff.

 

Yes I do have my crafted rakata bracers and belt, but it's not giving me that much statistically over the columi (since it's the weakest slots), and it can still be obtained through other means.

 

I'm sorry that having someone call out the truth about how OP a crew skill is hurts people feelings, but it makes more sense to nerf one profession than to make all the other equally OP.

 

I don't think we can get augment slots on the oranges yet, that will be next patch. I'm not sure how I feel about it and I'm mainly an armor crafter. I guess it will be good for me, but I'm afraid it will be too much.

[GnatB]

So from what we've gathered at this point, the issue is clearly economics. The only advantage biochem has over anyone else is a reusable medpack that isn't as good as the consumable blue medpack, and a reusable stim that isn't as good as the blue exotech versions *which requires a lot of mats but that's another matter.

 

And, of course, the reuseable adrenals

 

The other professions are just as viable if not more so than biochem at this point. You can craft your orange gear with augment slots, do 2 dailies and easily have enough credits to buy a stim that persists through death.

 

No, actually you can't craft orange gear with augment slots. And when you can, (apparently in 1.2?) presumably it'll be non BoP, and thus accessible to all. Like the reuseable stuff should be if it continues to exist.

 

I'm perfectly fine with the existance of the reuseable stuff. What I'm not fine with is that it is restricted to biochems only. They need to either remove the biochem restriction, (which many biochems irrationally think will destroy their crew skill) or they need to remove the item itself.

[Sylriana]

It's really just dumb and is still OP at end game.

 

I don't know how you can hold to the position that re-usable stims/adrenals/medpacks are OP at endgame when by using them endgame you're putting yourself at a disadvantage by using weaker items.

 

Even if they were exactly the same as top tier stims/adrenals.. It's still only a money saver, there's no physical advantage at all.

 

What I'm not fine with is that it is restricted to biochems only.

 

 

Why?

 

(which many biochems irrationally think will destroy their crew skill)

 

It won't desroy the crew skill outright, but it is thematically screwy (as it makes biohcem no longer a commodity crafting skill, but an equipment crafting skill ) ... and really doesn't accomplish anything helpful.

 

Even Biochemists should want this change, because with so many biochemists, the market for stims and medpacs is just not there.

 

This is a pretty backwards argument. Because the market for stims/adrenals is apparently weak, Biochemists should want a change that would make buying stims/adrenals even less appealing?

Either make the reusables available to all and maybe reserve some slightly stronger versions for the biochems or remove them from the game, cause atm its totally overpowered compared to other professions.

 

This one is even more backwards. Saving Biochemists a few credits if they're willing to gimp their character is "overpowered" but giving Biochemists an actual gameplay advantage over every other player in the game would be fine?

Edited February 22, 2012 by Sylriana

[GnatB]

What I'm not fine with is that it is restricted to biochems only.

 

Why?

 

Because it forces people (economically at least) to pick up biochem if they want to compete, even people who would otherwise remain as happy customers of those who do biochem. So we end up with more suppliers (people who can craft biochem items) and less demand (people don't need to buy stuff because they make their own).

 

 

(which many biochems irrationally think will destroy their crew skill)

 

It won't desroy the crew skill outright, but it is thematically screwy (as it makes biohcem no longer a commodity crafting skill, but an equipment crafting skill ) ... and really doesn't accomplish anything helpful.

 

No less thematically screwy than implants. As for accomplishing anything helpful?

1. Reduces the need (percieved or otherwise) for people to take up biochem for themselves, thus increasing the possible customer base and decreasing the probable competition. Which would likely lead to stims/adrenals/medpacks (and possibly implants) being (more) profitable sellers. Presumably the reuseable ones will sell for considerably more, which for many people, (especially while leveling) won't be worth it. For some it may be though.

2. Opens up the market of selling said reuseables.

3. Fixes the TRADE skill so you can actually TRADE the good stuff.

 

 

Tradeskills are supposed to be all about trade. Anything crafted that isn't tradeable is broken and should be fixed. There should be NO "perk" for having a tradeskill that will give somebody a combat advantage over somebody who has no tradeskill. A tradeskill advantage? (such as better chance of crits, or shorter mission times?) sure. But not a COMBAT advantage.

[Sylriana]

Because it forces people (economically at least) to pick up biochem if they want to compete, even people who would otherwise remain as happy customers of those who do biochem. So we end up with more suppliers (people who can craft biochem items) and less demand (people don't need to buy stuff because they make their own).

 

Forces? Hardly. There's no tangible advantage for being biochem. Using the re-usable stims/adrenals, once again, is weakening your character. It saves you time and credits... but my synthweaver saves herself time and credits by making herself high tier BoP craftables too.

 

 

No less thematically screwy than implants.

True, though implants are far more limited in scope.

 

1. Reduces the need (percieved or otherwise) for people to take up biochem for themselves, thus increasing the possible customer base and decreasing the probable competition. Which would likely lead to stims/adrenals/medpacks (and possibly implants) being (more) profitable sellers. Presumably the reuseable ones will sell for considerably more, which for many people, (especially while leveling) won't be worth it. For some it may be though.

Possibly, though rather speculative. Possibly not though if they applied this same standard to every other profession simultaneously ( which would dis-incentivize people from dropping biochem ).. unless you're suggesting that this "rule" should be applied unilaterally.

 

2. Opens up the market of selling said reuseables.

and close the market for energized tier consumables (potentially weaken the market for exotech consumables too)

3. Fixes the TRADE skill so you can actually TRADE the good stuff.

You -do- trade the good stuff though. Exotech stims sell rather well.

 

 

There should be NO "perk" for having a tradeskill that will give somebody a combat advantage over somebody who has no tradeskill. A tradeskill advantage? (such as better chance of crits, or shorter mission times?) sure. But not a COMBAT advantage.

 

We're in complete agreement here... and that's actually the way it is right now. Being a biochemist just gives you a bit more convenience with absolutely no combat advantage... just like how being a synthweaver or cybertech makes gearing yourself a bit more convenient.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Sylriana

[GnatB]

Possibly, though rather speculative. Possibly not though if they applied this same standard to every other profession simultaneously ( which would dis-incentivize people from dropping biochem ).. unless you're suggesting that this "rule" should be applied unilaterally.

 

Not really sure what you mean here by applying this same standard to every other profession.. (wouldn't that be the same thing?) Ideally, (or at least, in my "ideal" world) not everybody would feel the need to be a crafter. It would be a large time/money sink, with the primary reimbursement being pride/money, and the latter only if you are selling your wares to a lot of people. The vast majority of players would be perfectly happy being consumers and not producers. Or are you simply saying that perhaps it is too late with biochem, too many people already have the skill, so the damage has already been done? If so, I'm afraid I probably have to agree with you. (I've mentioned that elsewhere, but forgot to here). At least for the short term. Long term, the skill cap will go up, people will roll alts/leave the game. New servers will come up, etc.

 

 

And I'm sorry, but being able to pop adrenals at will, (which is something that isn't financially feasible unless you're biotech with reuseables) is a significant combat advantage.

 

Oh, and I forgot a 4th point. Since everybody and his brother would no longer have any incentive to powerlevel to 400 to get their reuseables, the various mats would drop in price/increase availability to "sane" levels. (which I guess is bad for the gold farmers/harvesters, but better for the crafters... by and large, currently the only way you're selling implants (other than purple 49's, I expect) is at a loss, once you figure in opportunity costs.)

[Corran]

Like the title says, i think it's time to end this. It clearly is overpowering because having a free heal, free adrenals and free stims is just too powerful.

 

Even Biochemists should want this change, because with so many biochemists, the market for stims and medpacs is just not there.

 

The perks for a biochemist should be stronger stim/adrenals/medpacs for their own use only. Change the reusables to the Exotech (requiring 400 biochem to use), and drop their mats to only requiring one Radioactive Paste (4 is absurd).

 

Adrenals are too expensive currently. A good start would be to cut their mats by half.

 

For ops schematics, make the Exotech have a 4 hour duration that anybody can use (and requiring 4 Radioactive Paste).

 

The other crafting skills aren't broken. Some require tweeks, but they ARE viable. It's just when people compare them to Biochem, they see it as useless. When people look up stims and see that 2 stims is the same price as a reusable, it's a no-brainer that stims are a ripoff or/and that biochem reusables is too fantastic to not have.

 

keep your silly post in mind when 1.2 hits and everyone is scrambling for crit crafted orange gear because it overnight becomes best in slot in up to 7 slots on your character.

[ShadowOfVey]

To my eye the problem isn't that biochem is too good, it's that biochem is the only crafting skill that actually gives some sort of worthwhile advantage...which of course all crew skills should have.

 

If Biochem was removed tomorrow entirely, I'm not sure I'd even bother leveling crew skills unless I was bored. The solution isn't to nerf the one crew skill they actually made worthwhile, the solution is to make them all worthwhile.

[dirtyv]

This thread is lame

 

Go Bio if you think it is so good.

 

If you think the other skills have nothing to offer or they are not as good, stop crying like a little *** and switch your joint up.