Time to end Biochem reusables

[zaknaphein]

I think the developers said they will be removing them in the future.

 

They ain't removing them, stop spreading false info. They said they are gonna get phased out. What this means? New schematics will be added in the future, a lot stronger than the current in the game, but there won't be any reusable type of those. Do you understand now?

[Umerisa]

I totally agree with OP. Either make the reusables available to all and maybe reserve some slightly stronger versions for the biochems or remove them from the game, cause atm its totally overpowered compared to other professions.

 

 

So make reuable so all can use them and make biochem totaly to a none profitable shipcrew skill! And all the other proffesions can run in credits like anything!

 

Cause some one think a bit ahead and thinks, i am getting my gear at level 50, so why should i pick the other once. and they should be pushing for that, just wrong IMO

 

As said before, give all the crafting profession an own unique perk!

[Hardin_Steele]

The Bio reusables should eventually become obsolete, as players level away from their benefit (like the lower level Biochem stuff....you left that stuff behind long ago).

 

It will eventually be phased out through obsolecence.....but I didn't read how long they think that will take.

[FourTwent]

Heh heh, George my friend; this only makes things even more vague

 

The real question people would like answered is if there will ever be better reusable items that Biochems can make (for personal use) in the future or if it stops at what we can make now and that Biochems can never RE the new recipes into reusable versions anymore.

 

But the real question is 'Why?'. Why the intention remove the perk of a Biochem having reusables? They were not overpowered or anything; just a nice perk to have. So why not give similar perks to the other Crew Skills so all will have a perk for choosing a crafting skill? Now it seems the only benefit of having any Crew Skill is to become a production line factory and nothing more.

 

Lastly I hope you guys will also increase the number of items created per craft as at present time it takes a ridiculous amount of time and mats just to make a single medpack. If anything, consumables should be made in batches.

 

It's not heroic when I have to gather flowers all day just so my guild has enough medpacks/stims for an Ops.

 

I dunno how you think that's vague at all. . .its really not

 

They will introduce higher tier Biochem items. . .but will NOT make reusable versions of them.

 

They said at the summit, the reason for this was to grow the economy. Aka the crafter that makes 1 reusable is useless to that person after they buy that 1 reusable.

 

So with the new changes, you'll have to continue buying these from crafters.

 

Yet it's heroic that you have to use a stim to complete a boss(or any other type of content)?

Edited March 14, 2012 by FourTwent

[Mephane]

I dunno how you think that's vague at all. . .its really not

 

They will introduce higher tier Biochem items. . .but will NOT make reusable versions of them.

 

They said at the summit, the reason for this was to grow the economy. Aka the crafter that makes 1 reusable is useless to that person after they buy that 1 reusable.

 

So with the new changes, you'll have to continue buying these from crafters.

 

The funny thing is, those with Biochem reusables are... Biochemists themselves. So no, they will not buy from the GTN. They will produce for themselves, which leaves them with less resources to produce for friends, guild mates or the GTN.

 

Which in turn will drive up the demand and thus prices for Biochem mats, particularly those from Diplomacy, and thus also the prices for stims and adrenals.

 

In other words - it will also hurt those without Biochem and the reusables. Have fun with 20k+ for a stim, and I am not even talking about the exotech version.

 

Yet it's heroic that you have to use a stim to complete a boss(or any other type of content)?

 

Somehow this always reminds me of professional cycling. Everyone's doping (and expected to anyway) so it's not even something special at all, yet I have the nagging feeling that everyone would be better off if the involved drugs did not exist at all...

Edited March 14, 2012 by Mephane

[FourTwent]

The funny thing is, those with Biochem reusables are... Biochemists themselves. So no, they will not buy from the GTN. They will produce for themselves, which leaves them with less resources to produce for friends, guild mates or the GTN.

 

Which in turn will drive up the demand and thus prices for Biochem mats, particularly those from Diplomacy, and thus also the prices for stims and adrenals.

 

In other words - it will also hurt those without Biochem and the reusables. Have fun with 20k+ for a stim, and I am not even talking about the exotech version.

 

 

 

Somehow this always reminds me of professional cycling. Everyone's doping (and expected to anyway) so it's not even something special at all, yet I have the nagging feeling that everyone would be better off if the involved drugs did not exist at all...

 

Actually it just turns it more into a Credit Sink. Assuming they'd have no resources for guildies is silly. Maybe they can't give them away like water, but if the guildie wants some stims, they'll offer some credits(if not all, then some to at least help offset the cost for the crafter).

 

Oh no! How dare they drive the cost up. If you saw the guild summit you'd see that biochem isn't even that popular. Even more so when it comes to the price/demand for mats, it's all in scavenging and underworld trading(at least the most demand is). So why not put Biochem on the same level as Cybertech? Both are useful. Hell, I'd say Biochem is MORE useful, so the demand/cost SHOULD be higher.

 

Have fun? You think you say that, and that means you won the debate. . .or that what you say will come to pass EXACTLY how you said it? Get over yourself.

 

So you suggest to remove Biochem completely? If not, then I have no idea what you're saying in your last paragraph. If so, then that's cool. I'm sure you have legitimate reasons why you feel that way. Will your feelings change anything in the game? No. But if you gave actual reasons and facts to back up your belief, instead of an odd analogy, then maybe the devs will take note(if it's popular) and make stims less potent in the future.

[Mephane]

Have fun? You think you say that, and that means you won the debate. . .or that what you say will come to pass EXACTLY how you said it? Get over yourself.

 

I am not saying it will come exactly like that. It's an extrapolation - stims nowadays, at least on my server, are priced at 10-15k each. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect, once the demand on the materials goes up, that 20k might be a normal price. And this projection does not even consider exotech stims or any future stuff that may be added without corresponding reusables.

 

So you suggest to remove Biochem completely? If not, then I have no idea what you're saying in your last paragraph. If so, then that's cool. I'm sure you have legitimate reasons why you feel that way. Will your feelings change anything in the game? No. But if you gave actual reasons and facts to back up your belief, instead of an odd analogy, then maybe the devs will take note(if it's popular) and make stims less potent in the future.

 

Ok, maybe indeed I need to clarify what I meant - I remember the times in other MMOs where potions, flasks etc. where used mostly by the more "hardcore" people, i.e. those who would now in SWTOR regularly do nightmare mode operations. I remember the times when flasks where handed out from the raid lead to the tanks only on certain boss fights, where everyone consumed potions only based on their personall willingness to pay for or craft them, and no one considered them as something required to even be allowed in the raid.

 

Nowadays sometimes you may be kicked from normal mode operations for not using stims, and on hard mode there's usually not even a debate about whether they are really required - they just expected. I've even talk to someone who said even in hard mode ops they would demand everyone to use exotech stims, not hyper-combat.

 

 

Back in the old times no one complained about the cost of flasks and potions because no one was considered required to buy them at all. Some did because they wanted that edge, then often they were bought by the raid bank and not paid for individually (but for example from stuff the raid bank sells on the AH to fund these things).

 

And let's not even get started about adrenals, who require nearly the same amount of materials like a stim, except that you consume several during a single boss fight, not one every two hours...

 

Edit: To clarify even more - the point of what I am saying is that if stims/adrenals where considered entirely optional, there wouldn't even be that much of a desire for reusables. But when you are presented with only the choice to use them or not to raid at all, they are a lot of hassle for people who otherwise could care less whether they could squeeze out that last 1% of dps by spending 50k every night. That's where the reusables came in and alleviated this hassle, and this is why they are so popular and people do not want them removed or even phased out over time.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Mephane

[FourTwent]

Ok, maybe indeed I need to clarify what I meant - I remember the times in other MMOs where potions, flasks etc. where used mostly by the more "hardcore" people, i.e. those who would now in SWTOR regularly do nightmare mode operations. I remember the times when flasks where handed out from the raid lead to the tanks only on certain boss fights, where everyone consumed potions only based on their personall willingness to pay for or craft them, and no one considered them as something required to even be allowed in the raid.

 

Nowadays sometimes you may be kicked from normal mode operations for not using stims, and on hard mode there's usually not even a debate about whether they are really required - they just expected. I've even talk to someone who said even in hard mode ops they would demand everyone to use exotech stims, not hyper-combat.

 

What server do you play on, if you dont mind me asking?

 

I'm not seeing this on the server I'm on now, nor did I see it on the first server I rolled on(and joined a casual guild). Especially for just a hardmode. I was rolling into Hardmodes with guildies in Champion PvP gear and doing good enough to complete. by all means, I was not in a big uber elite, uber skill cap guild. . .nor did I do any 'crazy hard' hardmodes, like I hear hardmode false emperor is rough, but i have no experience with it, just the early ones like esseles up to tarel v or so.

 

i've only done a few flashpoints on the new server and I'm not in a guild yet. but im not getting the idea that biochem is required in any way, what so ever.

 

This doesn't mean that no one on these servers are using them. Lots of people play for end game only, and if Biochem improves your class performance specifically(not based on a credit maker)in comparison to the other crafts, lots of people will use it to optimize their class. But the only way I see this as being 'required' by a guild is the hardcore of the hardcore, like guilds that want to complete FPs and OPs as quick as possible, and always looking to beat their fastest time.

 

Dont try to say the content is so hard that it warrants the requirement of Biochem in any sort of way. Its just not. And why would you want to play with a group/guild that thinks that way, that lacks the skill to do a FP/OP regularly. I wouldn't be surprised it Bioware required their 'testing' team to complete all content(including nightmare modes) without the use of Biochem, and probably with some strict requirements on what gear they can wear(Like I would doubt they're allowed to switch out the mods to optimize, like we do).

 

btw - i dunno what type of stims you were talking about going for 10k - 15k a pop. assuming those aren't reusables, but I was able to snag almost every tier of the resuable stims and adrenals on ajunta pall for no more than 25k, most were 15k - 20k. the only tier i didn't get was lvl 42(i believe or maybe it's level 40) since I felt I was leveling so fast by then. i would assume the non-reusables cost less to craft since they dont require the purple mat(but maybe im not aware of something, like maybe you were talking about reusables).

[Mosene]

yeh yeh deff needs more nerfing...

 

Atm the heal is TOTALY worth less to have. I just dont bother using the healing med pack anymore sometimes. I get like 3k tops out of 20k hp. Its not even funny anymore ^^

 

The stim is ok and i keep it cause its a not bad addition.

 

In total i think im gona drop biochem for rakkata crafting....biochem IS under powered. Its worth less.

 

Than again i don't like how crafting works in this game. There is no sense of achievement and crafting is very useless, a lot of items crafted are bound, making auction house **** all.

 

Crafting needs some love in total.

 

Yeah when I'm at 1% hp i pop undying rage then heal myself for 3-3.5k and get another 15% max hp which brings me from almost dead to 30%, this while being invulnerable.Worthless!

[Mephane]

Cassus Fett is the server. And I am talking about operations. In flashpoints no one cares, at least, but over the last years MMO communities as a whole seemed to have adopted the view where not wanting to use stims/adrenals (flasks/pots in The Other Game) would indicate a lack of commitment to the raid, guild and players doing the content with you; it would flag you as being lazy, parsimonious, or egoistic.

 

It's not even a consistent drive to have everyone perfom the very best they theoretically could. In SWTOR I've been doing ops in a guild that demanded everyone use stims in normal mode operations, and were already talking about making exotech stims mandatory once they enter hard modes. Yet the same guild leader happily accepted that I kept my orange gear that I had modded to almost Columi-level (armoring is 51 from Ilum, so no set bonuses either, and I know how nice they can be...).

Replacing all my gear by the proper Columi set pieces would have produced far more effect that popping a ~120 main stat stim, yet they did not demand this. They wanted the stims as a show of commitment, a proof of "worthiness", or just adhere to a "I don't get if I burn my money this way, but you ought to, too!" attitude.

 

That was when I switched to Biochem to relieve me of any further argument and the need to burn my money on stuff that personally I still consider entirely optional (later I left that guild; the new one only demands stims in hardmode ops, and is content with the hyper-combat/rakata versions).

 

This of course means that the sole reason why I have Biochem is to not have to burn money again and again on consumables and to prevent me the endless debates about whether consumables are necessary in a given piece of endgame content. When I switched I already knew the exotech stuff is better anyway, I went for the convenience and money-saving in the face of people demanding everyone to use the buff-consumables in endgame content.

 

I am not going to drop the crew skill, however. I'll keep it and do the absolute minimum to make my own non-reusable stims once the reusables are effectively phased out (i.e. when ops leads won't accept any more that someone still uses the old and weaker rakata stuff).

 

So, in essence, I am not doing it for profit or some statistical combat advantage (which was eliminated way before I switched to Biochem anyway), but only to save myself the hassle with people.

 

 

In conclusion, this of course also means that I could happily live the complete removal of the Biochem profession, heh. But it's not what I am advocating here.

[FourTwent]

Cassus Fett is the server. And I am talking about operations. In flashpoints no one cares, at least, but over the last years MMO communities as a whole seemed to have adopted the view where not wanting to use stims/adrenals (flasks/pots in The Other Game) would indicate a lack of commitment to the raid, guild and players doing the content with you; it would flag you as being lazy, parsimonious, or egoistic.

 

It's not even a consistent drive to have everyone perfom the very best they theoretically could. In SWTOR I've been doing ops in a guild that demanded everyone use stims in normal mode operations, and were already talking about making exotech stims mandatory once they enter hard modes. Yet the same guild leader happily accepted that I kept my orange gear that I had modded to almost Columi-level (armoring is 51 from Ilum, so no set bonuses either, and I know how nice they can be...).

Replacing all my gear by the proper Columi set pieces would have produced far more effect that popping a ~120 main stat stim, yet they did not demand this. They wanted the stims as a show of commitment, a proof of "worthiness", or just adhere to a "I don't get if I burn my money this way, but you ought to, too!" attitude.

 

That was when I switched to Biochem to relieve me of any further argument and the need to burn my money on stuff that personally I still consider entirely optional (later I left that guild; the new one only demands stims in hardmode ops, and is content with the hyper-combat/rakata versions).

 

This of course means that the sole reason why I have Biochem is to not have to burn money again and again on consumables and to prevent me the endless debates about whether consumables are necessary in a given piece of endgame content. When I switched I already knew the exotech stuff is better anyway, I went for the convenience and money-saving in the face of people demanding everyone to use the buff-consumables in endgame content.

 

I am not going to drop the crew skill, however. I'll keep it and do the absolute minimum to make my own non-reusable stims once the reusables are effectively phased out (i.e. when ops leads won't accept any more that someone still uses the old and weaker rakata stuff).

 

So, in essence, I am not doing it for profit or some statistical combat advantage (which was eliminated way before I switched to Biochem anyway), but only to save myself the hassle with people.

 

 

In conclusion, this of course also means that I could happily live the complete removal of the Biochem profession, heh. But it's not what I am advocating here.

 

I will admit I have no experience in either of the 8 man or 16 man operations. I just enjoy pvp more at the moment. It very well could have been going on in the servers I mentioned, I was just never exposed to it.

 

The only other MMO I have played that I can compare it to is DDO(its the only other MMO i've played). And what you said is true, saying 'i didn't have to use an sp pot' during an epic raid is very sought after. but DDO also had a consumable called a 'yugo pot' which would increase a main stat by 2. And that relates to how stims are right now. Everyone wants them even though they cost a moderate amount for each pot. I'm sure there's some guilds that pride on not having to rely on them, but for hte most part the hardcore players use them. Which is exactly what happens here, except you were required to pick up the biochem profession if you wanted a reusable version(which they are phasing out).

[AetherMcLoud]

Yeah when I'm at 1% hp i pop undying rage then heal myself for 3-3.5k and get another 15% max hp which brings me from almost dead to 30%, this while being invulnerable.Worthless!

 

3k of ~16k is nowhere near 30% health. Also the 15% max hp you get aren't healed you simply get more maximum health, but not 15% temporary healing.

[Mephane]

I'm sure there's some guilds that pride on not having to rely on them, but for hte most part the hardcore players use them. Which is exactly what happens here, except you were required to pick up the biochem profession if you wanted a reusable version(which they are phasing out).

 

Well, my observation is that even those that are clearly not hardcore in any way still demand them. I was not just talking about guild that regularly do nightmare mode ops or try to achieve server first kills etc., but the ordinary guild that does normal mode operations, does a bit of hard mode when they eventually find they have enough people equipped for it, and that's it.

 

If it were just the hardcore, as in earlier times (read: years ago) and everyone else would not even have to bother about consumables, then this entire discussion would be moot.

[Neamhan]

Yeah when I'm at 1% hp i pop undying rage then heal myself for 3-3.5k and get another 15% max hp which brings me from almost dead to 30%, this while being invulnerable.Worthless!

 

If you're talking about pvp you should be using warzone medpacks, which are basically free for doing under 50 warzone missions, and heal for 35% of your max health in one shot. A good player will use it after the +15% max health for extra healing.

 

Basically, if you're using the reusable medpack in pvp you're doing it wrong.

[Buttered]

just take crew skills out of the game entirely because none of you can Shut the F__k Up about how op one is over the other...the medpac is garbage now unless ur a bad tank or u pvp, and the stims save me money HOWEVER the reusable BLUE stims that you may use if youre not biochem are actually a few stats BETTER than reusable, so free has its drawbacks

 

 

Edit: and before you say duhh no they aint!, the tooltip is broken last i checked, could be fixed by now

 

Double Edit: not reusable BLUE like i said, take reusable out lol

Edited March 14, 2012 by Buttered

[Tadshackles]

Blah blah blah...PVP and PVE are mirrors in every sense...we grind for cent champ and BM tokens just like PVP grinds for their stuff...Bioware got that right but the screwed up on the crew skills...I don't want anything for "free" I just want to be able to grind it in the way I grind for everything else...same as the PVErs.

 

No.

 

You "grind" by showing up and going afk, you still get loot.

 

PVE requires you to actually kill stuff. PVE requires a grind. PVP is LITERALLY "you get loot for being there - win or lose"

 

yeah same thing >.>

[UncleJimbo]

Wow, players are so lazy these days it is unbelievable.

On the EU server I play the reusable adrenals are on sale at GTN and before you jump to point out that the Rakata are better I have one thing to say: they offer a small amount of extra stat inrease.

 

My suggestion to all is: go do the research, go to GTN and buy the damn adrenal reusables and let the raiders have the extra fluff.

 

Also because you are lazy and did not do your homework the prototype adrenal is better than Rakata adrenal.

So with the credits you earn from warzones and other sources you can actually have better adrenals than the reusable ones.

With the sitms is the same situation: normal stim vs rakata stim

 

I hate it when players pressure design teams to nerf something that should not be nerfed instead of asking to review the other crew skills so we can actually have a healthy community and trading network instead of the damn grinding fests.

 

Sometimes I thing MMOs should come with an IQ test and a personality check ....

[paspinall]

Nothing about reusable consumables is OP'd and that is just a silly statement. Anything that is reausable is the same as what can be purchased from a Med Droid. U just don't have to buy it anymore.

 

Simplest solution is to just remove the BioChem requirement from the reusables and then all can use them, same as armor, weapons, etc.

 

The consumable Prototype Ultimate Medpack having a HOT makes it one of the best in game and only available from a Biochem and only restriction is lvl 48. Many prefer this item over Rakata Heal Pack.

 

L2p before making less than smart statemente.

 

 

 

the prototype medpacks dont get a HoT.

[Solbjorn]

I demand that Troopers, Bounty Hunters, Smugglers, and Operatives buy or craft ammunition because it doesnt make sense that they have infinite ammo and it is over powered

[gibmachine]

Lemme paste my post from other thread about reusables

___

 

To those saying that reusable consumables are op and it's a good thing that they will be phased out. Consider this.

 

In 1.2 every crafting profession will be able to craft best in slot augmented gear with no requirements other than armor type. That should (and will propably) stimulate economy by promoting crafting and seeling. However, this will also mean that while biochemist will have to continue farming mats and making consumables for himself, a synthweaver or atificer who doesn't want to craft and sell, will simply craft particular piece of gear for himself and be done with it. Sounds a lot like current reusable huh? After all the belt or relic won't disappear after few days.

 

It's a bad concept to completely phase out reusables. Buffing other profs is very good idea but while at, they should also keep putting reusables in the game but make sure that they are a level or 2 below the best usables available.

 

They are trying to promote trading and it's a good thing but not everyone is interested in playing the GTN. Some people (and I'm willing to bet serious money that it's actually a majority) want to simply pick up a profession for a personal perk. Synthweave and artifice will provide such option. However even though current reusables will remain a valid choice for a couple of patches, stats will go up in time and past certain level, that ~4k heal or 500 power will simply be obsolete, at which point biochem will be left with no perk whatsoever other than the POSSIBILITY to make best consumables which you still have to farm the mats for (and that's not easy thing when companions refuse to bring the mats you need) and craft them on daily basis as opposed to gear-crafting profs that farm the mats once, craft the item which they will use for the rest of the patch.

 

Making a biochemists into glorified craft-monkeys isn't a good thing.

Edited March 14, 2012 by gibmachine

[Giondi]

I actually dream they just give everyone biochem/bioan like wow does with first aid game set match then they can go back and buff it back and viola = playing field.

 

Bio isn't the First aid of this game, it's the Alchemy of this game. And it's not nearly as good as Alchemy because there's no transmutes, which is where you (or at least I) made the most money through part of BC, most of Lich King, and still was awesome in Cata.

 

Every other crafting profession gives permanent stat upgrades in the form of gear, and the best gear of every other profession is BOP. You don't even have to keep the profession to use that gear, but you have to keep Bio if you want to use the reusables, which really kind of makes Bio the weakest profession, since you can power level the others in about a day, get what you want, then move to the next one. I think to "level the playing field," Bio ought to get a BOP stim with a permanent duration so we can just get the best stuff and go get whatever other professions we want.

[XyriusSES]

No thanks.

[HanzBlix]

To those complaining about losing reusables. Get over it.

 

I have a 400 biochem, and it's retarded. I make so much money off of it, it's absolutely insane (just selling consumables).

 

The fact that you get a reusable adrenal is OP, no other crew skiller could afford adrenals with the cost involved. That is a huge additional ability that no one else gets. The health packs are beyond awesome... still even after the nerf.

 

My other buddy who also made a 400 biochem also agrees with my sentiments on this. Overpowered crew skill is overpowered, even after nerfs.

 

It will still be more than useful as reusables get phased out.

 

Oh I almost forgot, you can also make BIS Implants for 2 slots on top of everything else.

[UncleJimbo]

To those complaining about losing reusables. Get over it.

 

I have a 400 biochem, and it's retarded. I make so much money off of it, it's absolutely insane (just selling consumables).

 

The fact that you get a reusable adrenal is OP, no other crew skiller could afford adrenals with the cost involved. That is a huge additional ability that no one else gets. The health packs are beyond awesome... still even after the nerf.

 

My other buddy who also made a 400 biochem also agrees with my sentiments on this. Overpowered crew skill is overpowered, even after nerfs.

 

It will still be more than useful as reusables get phased out.

 

Oh I almost forgot, you can also make BIS Implants for 2 slots on top of everything else.

 

Let me see you pay 1mil credits for that belt with an augment, or that bracer with an augment. I'll be reading your post of nerf calling on other professions and will quote you this thread.

Selling adrenals will not be a viable solution after 1.2 is well in it way and gear progresses, but crafted armor will still be expensive, if you wish to have BiS.

The nerf for biochem has be called out by many people that cannot see past the fence and when the stims will not be viable anymore, adrenals will not be worth it and med packs will be outdated then this crew skill will be nothing more that an useless NPC space in the crew skill fleet section.

 

Also could you please elaborate on "It will still be more than useful as reusables get phased out" because phasing out means that the contribution of the said adrenal/stim will not have an impact, hence making it useless not useful.

 

Edit: thy were not talking only about reusables, BW will phase out all types of stims/adrenals. I could not care less for the reusables as the prototype ones are more powerful in most cases; the nerf calling for biochem has gone so far that it will not be viable even without reusables (read the developers tracker).

Edited March 14, 2012 by UncleJimbo

[Giondi]

Oh I almost forgot, you can also make BIS Implants for 2 slots on top of everything else.

 

Unlike Armormech and Synthweaving, which will sell BIS for 5 slots (head, chest, pants, boots, and gloves) once crit crafting orange gear goes live.