Time to end Biochem reusables

[Blackardin]

You're enjoying being a biochemist right now because you're enjoying the advantages you get. The advantages you get over the other players who aren't biochemists, and the advantages of the encounters that were not made in mind for unlimited adrenals/medpacs. But if this becomes the standard, then you won't have the biochem advantage over the other players, and the content will be developed with the assumption that the reusables are required rather than as emergencies.

 

Sure, you'll be overpowered now and enjoying it, but in the end, you'll just be like everybody else, with no advantage over other players or over the content. In fact, if reusables become common than getting to 50 is not the end of the road for you, you would also need to get 400 in a crafting skill for the utilities because content would be created with the assumption that players would have the 400 crafting utilities.

 

I can see where you are going with this. Very valid as this is exactly how addons play into the game. The devs at Wow acknowledged that they were designing content around mods such as DBM.

 

With meds and adrenals it does not, however, have that great an impact. As I've stated, I am a raider. Designing content with the intention that everyone will have their stim loaded at the start of the fight is not something I see as a negative, but just one more bit of depth added to the game which requires people to do more to accomplish raid content.

 

Granted, if it becomes extreme, we will end up with WoW type of unforgiving fights that require more work out of play then in play, but I do not think the availability of pots has the potential to do that here anymore then it did in WoW.

[Chunkie]

I would contend to the contrary. Everyone WILL have unlimited access to all needed pots. That is why everyone is a bio, well, the general raiding population. This will not change. People, especially raiders, will find a way. I know, I've been raiding, leading raids, been in raiding guilds for a long time and I can pretty much assure you that everyone in my raid will have their stims, meds, absorbs, one way or another. if they are in game, we will have them.

 

It is further my contention that these items are already accounted for in the equation.

 

Well aren't you special Mr Professional Raider. Of course they're accounted for in the content, but what's not accounted for is the UNLIMITED usage of them in the content, i can guarantee you that.

 

Again, i'm not advocating removing those utilities from the game, just the UNLIMITED ability to use them.

[Chunkie]

Also I have determined by being a biochem for 2 months that not everyone is biochem as I have never had to fight over spawns like scavenging archaeology and slicing do I have a character with each crafting skill and only on my bio have I never had someone after the same nodes as me. so plenty doing other stuff

 

and if you had the ability to combat rez and deploy a repair droid you would never have trouble getting into a HM/op.

 

but in pvp nothing matters but raw stats and skill and they stack biochem because they lack skill because armor doesn't degrade in pvp and you just get handed your full set of gear as pvp rewards. so yeah pvp love biochem but maybe that just means pvp is broken. Take away the BM/cent/champ sets and people would be crafters real fast, so don't complain that you took something to min max further after everything you would ever need was handed to you on a silver platter.

 

You ever stop to think that perhaps the reason why people aren't fighting over the nodes is because they're using reusables and don't need to gather their stuff anymore?

 

Of course biochem is the most popular crafting skill, arguing it's not is absurd.

 

Ya, and i'm sure the classes that can combat rez now won't complain at all that you're giving their unique utility away to any other class that wants it.

 

And you're accusing Biochemist PvPers as lacking skills, but a Biochemist PvEer is different? The reason why you like Biochem reusables is because it gives you an advantage, it's no different. The game is easy enough as it is, we don't need unlimited reusables.

[Blackardin]

Well aren't you special Mr Professional Raider. Of course they're accounted for in the content, but what's not accounted for is the UNLIMITED usage of them in the content, i can guarantee you that.

 

Again, i'm not advocating removing those utilities from the game, just the UNLIMITED ability to use them.

 

Is there really a reason to reply in a childish manner simply because someone is presenting a differing opinion? I was not boasting, simply adding experienced input (although I would love it if someone would pay me to play this game). Valid and factual input at that. I suppose bragging about it would be attractive to a 13 year old, but I'm a bit past that. ;p

 

Second is that your contention was that this would occur, not that it already does. That is what I was responding to. If that was not your intent, then I apologize but that is how it read.

 

Third, I was contending that there was no relevance to whether pots were of unlimited usage or one per use, and that it would not affect end game raiding negatively. In fact, I would add that they would enhance the gaming experience. Unlimited simply makes them less tedious to attain. It is why they began allowing flasks to persist through death in Wow. From a raiding standpoint (no, not bragging here either ;p), the concept makes perfect sense.

 

Now, I see your point as valid when looking at it in regard to contained viability of the profession that produces them. In that instance it makes sense as one time production would tend to put the manufacturer out of business. I've already stated that as my reason for not wanting this, and looking at it from that perspective, Mr. professional raider actually agrees with you. ;p

[Chunkie]

Third, I was contending that there was no relevance to whether pots were of unlimited usage or one per use, and that it would not affect end game raiding negatively. In fact, I would add that they would enhance the gaming experience. Unlimited simply makes them less tedious to attain. It is why they began allowing flasks to persist through death in Wow. From a raiding standpoint (no, not bragging here either ;p), the concept makes perfect sense.

 

So in your raids, are you all biochemists? If not, are you saying all your non-biochemists pop adrenals and medpacs in a limitless fashion? How much do they spend a night for the non-biochemist?

 

Because that is the type of game this will devolve into if reusables stay in the game. And the content was not meant for consumables to be used in this way. In response, they will create content that will account for consumables to be used in this way. Which would mean that if you wanted to do the content, you would need to level a crafting skill to 400 so you could get the utility to do the encounter.

 

The reason why biochem is so attractive right now is because you have an advantage over those that don't have biochem or content that was never meant for limitless consumables. But if everybody has the same advantage as you and the content is developed to account for the reusables, your advantages would end. The advantage now will become a requirement tomorrow, and we will get new threads popping up saying that it sucks that you need to grind 400 in a crafting skill for utilities that you must have to do the content.

[Mestrahd]

I don't know how much Rakata medpaks have been reduced but I bet they're still a FAR sight better than the level 46 or whatever paks the rest of us have to use. They are the highest level medpaks I've seen without being Biochem. So yeah, end the reusable part and just have your profession bonus be the higher amount of healing/stat boost provided.

 

I seem to recall on my low level biochemist that the crafted medpaks were always better than equivalent vendor goods. So stop whining about a nerf to bring it from 5k healing to 4k or whatever they did, because my paks heal for 3k.

 

If there IS a level 50 medpak that I haven't found, please tell me, I've collected 80+ of the lesser ones.

[Akella]

Ok so let me get this straight. The rakata medpacks aren't as good as the blue lvl 48 versions that heal for more and have a HOT. The stims are very slightly better than the lvl 48 blue versions (the tooltip on the current rakata stims is still inaccurate). The rakata stims are quite a bit worse than the Exotech stims. The only advantage rakata has is that they are reusable. If someone was really interested in min/maxing their character they would not be using rakata, they would be using exotech and the medpack with the HOT heal.

 

So now you want to take the reusable off of the rakata too after you've cried so much that they've been nerfed 3 times now?

 

I would really love to see you find something positive about the game and write about that for a change instead of QQing that biochem is so OP. Go ahead, I dare you.

[Lexster]

Ok so let me get this straight. The rakata medpacks aren't as good as the blue lvl 48 versions that heal for more and have a HOT. The stims are very slightly better than the lvl 48 blue versions (the tooltip on the current rakata stims is still inaccurate). The rakata stims are quite a bit worse than the Exotech stims. The only advantage rakata has is that they are reusable. If someone was really interested in min/maxing their character they would not be using rakata, they would be using exotech and the medpack with the HOT heal.

 

So now you want to take the reusable off of the rakata too after you've cried so much that they've been nerfed 3 times now?

 

I would really love to see you find something positive about the game and write about that for a change instead of QQing that biochem is so OP. Go ahead, I dare you.

 

Its not a case of min/max here. It is economics.

 

A slightly worse medpack/stim/adrenal that is infinite in use is vastly superior to burning up the exotech in extended gameplay. Yes, it heals less, but it doesnt cost you 20k a click. If you are playing a game for many hours straight, that ability to use a slightly less effective item repeatedly and for free is the issue. For another person to use the medpak equivalent, not even the blue version, as that will be what is used while raiding, will cost them insane amounts of credits to obtain the same effect(as in clicking them every time they are available).

 

It is true they could lower the price of stims/meds/adrenals by increasing the batch created and decreasing the cost of materials to produce them, but the issue is still there in the long run.

 

Nothing they add to the other crafting skills will equate to an infinite use consumable short of giving every craft some form of infinite consumable. I would prefer they add consumables of some sort to all the classes, as that will give them something to sell at end game regardless of everyone being pimped out in their orange gear of choice.

 

Again, all classes should be getting a consumable of some sort. None of them should be reusuable though. In every game Ive played beyond this one, consumables were what helped keep credits down throughout the game. Here, someone will just make themselves a augmented bracer/belt, then an augmented relic, and then go biochem forever.

 

Why wouldn't they? After you have augmented every possible orange piece with the coming changes you wont actually need anything else. The benefit of these classes is gone to a the character itself in terms of additional power. They can still try to sell to others of course to make money, but there isn't an actual benefit.

[Chunkie]

Are you talking to me? Because if you are, you're obviously new to the forum. I post lots of positive things about this game.

 

And i'm not QQing. I am a Biochemist. I've probably made over 20M credits in biochem alone. I see a problem when 95% of all PvPers are now Biochemists, and half of raiders are Biochemists with the other half thinking about going Biochem.

 

This is to balance the game. Everybody thinks the other crafting skills are broken because they compare it to biochem, but that's wrong. The other crafting skills are viable, they could use some tweaking, but you can certainly make good creds with them (i do with cybertech and artifice, probably made 10M each with those). There is nothing you can do with the other crafting skills that will make people leave biochem when you can have unlimited medpac and adrenals.

 

Maybe you should read the threads instead of QQing that somebody wants to balance Biochem with the rest of the crafting skills.

[havok_bloodcraft]

I think alot of people are making tthe assumption hat every biochem has rakata med/stim/adrenal when the truth is only the ones in raid guilds do or I guess you could pug Hm's forever but the item needed only drops from last boss of each HM so most people just roll need for it which means each time you get a 25% chance and if you don''t have rakata you get the 48 version reusables but the blues are way better and anyone can use those I have the 48 reusable and I like it because I don't have to farm all day just to heal myself. I can still farm mats all day but then I get to make and sell things for about what I can sell the mats for.

[Ka-tel]

The question is:

Should having a tradeskills provide a perk that directly increases ones combat potential.

 

My *opinion* is that it definitely should not. As such, the only rational fix to biochem is either removing the reuseables, or removing the Biochem restriction on them. Either works.

 

Breaking all the other tradeskills by adding a perk to them that directly increases the combat potential of those who actually have that skill does NOT work.

 

 

And I'm sorry, all the biochems going on about how their reuseable stims aren't that big of an advantage... are correct. They keep bringing that up because it's a total red herring. It isn't the stims. It's the reuseable medpacks and the reuseable adrenals. Stims last long enough that it's quite feasible for non biochems to pony up the cash to buy them for two hours of use, and people (both biochems and not) are probably going to be useing the superior exotech whatever ones anyways.. Medpacks and adrenals on the other hand? No chance. You aren't going to be spending hours making something you use every 90 seconds or 3 minutes. And therefor the price will be similarly prohibitive.

 

What are you talking about? Other crafting classes make BoP items, so what's the problem?

 

When you craft a piece of armor or a speeder or a weapon.. is it reusable? I.E. does it last forever? THE ANSWER IS YES. So again, what's the problem?

[Ka-tel]

Its not a case of min/max here. It is economics.

 

A slightly worse medpack/stim/adrenal that is infinite in use is vastly superior to burning up the exotech in extended gameplay. Yes, it heals less, but it doesnt cost you 20k a click. If you are playing a game for many hours straight, that ability to use a slightly less effective item repeatedly and for free is the issue. For another person to use the medpak equivalent, not even the blue version, as that will be what is used while raiding, will cost them insane amounts of credits to obtain the same effect(as in clicking them every time they are available).

 

It is true they could lower the price of stims/meds/adrenals by increasing the batch created and decreasing the cost of materials to produce them, but the issue is still there in the long run.

 

Nothing they add to the other crafting skills will equate to an infinite use consumable short of giving every craft some form of infinite consumable. I would prefer they add consumables of some sort to all the classes, as that will give them something to sell at end game regardless of everyone being pimped out in their orange gear of choice.

 

Again, all classes should be getting a consumable of some sort. None of them should be reusuable though. In every game Ive played beyond this one, consumables were what helped keep credits down throughout the game. Here, someone will just make themselves a augmented bracer/belt, then an augmented relic, and then go biochem forever.

 

Why wouldn't they? After you have augmented every possible orange piece with the coming changes you wont actually need anything else. The benefit of these classes is gone to a the character itself in terms of additional power. They can still try to sell to others of course to make money, but there isn't an actual benefit.

 

Wow. How is another person with a brain similar to mine,... this ignorant?

 

Quit thinking of it as a consumable. It's just an item. An item that never goes away, just like a craftable BoP that any other crafter makes that never goes away ( guns, armor, etc.).

 

If permanent decay were in the game, you'd have an argument. As it is now, your logic is incredibly flawed and you should think before you type.

[Renamesk]

If you remove resuables from biochem, then you should remove them from all the crafting professions, to be fair, right?

No crafted weapons or armor can be repaired, and all mods and such that are crafted decay and can not be repaired. Sound good? Make sense?

Especially since many instances the character does not need the skill to use said item.

To paraphrase the OP, Everyone should want this change, because with so much crafted gear that can be reused, the market for such gear is just not there.

Make sense right? Oh wait that will kill crafted items.

Or...just maybe..

The real problem is vendor items are cheaper and almost as effective when it comes to medpacks, and such, as the crafted non-reusable ones, standard vendor armor and weapons, and such, are no where close to purple or blue crafted items of similar level, so either increase crafted non-reuse biochem items effectiveness (then removing reusable is ok) or greatly reduce vendor item effectiveness, and greatly increase cost (course that is server dependent on current market value for items on the market so hard to do a price increase only), to make crafted items more appealing, which will raise all sorts of complaints, but all changes do.

 

 

You, sir, are a master of hyperbole, and for that I commend you. The key difference between your obscene claims that were made to make a point and the point that most non-biochemists are trying to make is that EVERYONE who wants to play well either needs an insane amount of biochem medpacs or can just go biochem themselves. The cost to play this way and not be biochem but sitll get the benefits of stims/adrenals/medpacs is extreme and much larger than the repair costs of the armor that can be made.

 

 

My idea? Remove the BOP or skill requirement of the items. That way, these items maintain being must haves, craftings aren't dropped just to get these sought after items, and the economy changes, as biochem gets more things to sell. It works for everyone, and I'm not just talking biochem. Make reusable grenades not have a skill requirement and make the BoP armor recipes BoE. That way crafting is more useful for making money and we don't have to switch craftings just to get sought after items.

[Ka-tel]

You, sir, are a master of hyperbole, and for that I commend you. The key difference between your obscene claims that were made to make a point and the point that most non-biochemists are trying to make is that EVERYONE who wants to play well either needs an insane amount of biochem medpacs or can just go biochem themselves. The cost to play this way and not be biochem but sitll get the benefits of stims/adrenals/medpacs is extreme and much larger than the repair costs of the armor that can be made.

 

 

My idea? Remove the BOP or skill requirement of the items. That way, these items maintain being must haves, craftings aren't dropped just to get these sought after items, and the economy changes, as biochem gets more things to sell. It works for everyone, and I'm not just talking biochem. Make reusable grenades not have a skill requirement and make the BoP armor recipes BoE. That way crafting is more useful for making money and we don't have to switch craftings just to get sought after items.

 

No, it doesn't work for everyone. It works for everyone who doesn't want to have biochem. What's the incentive to be biochem then, when you can just buy everything biochem has to offer?

As a biochem, can I buy the BoP items other crafters make?

 

NO?!?!? Then how the hell do you suppose what you say is in any way logical, whatsoever?

Edited February 19, 2012 by Ka-tel

[havok_bloodcraft]

You, sir, are a master of hyperbole, and for that I commend you. The key difference between your obscene claims that were made to make a point and the point that most non-biochemists are trying to make is that EVERYONE who wants to play well either needs an insane amount of biochem medpacs or can just go biochem themselves. The cost to play this way and not be biochem but sitll get the benefits of stims/adrenals/medpacs is extreme and much larger than the repair costs of the armor that can be made.

 

 

My idea? Remove the BOP or skill requirement of the items. That way, these items maintain being must haves, craftings aren't dropped just to get these sought after items, and the economy changes, as biochem gets more things to sell. It works for everyone, and I'm not just talking biochem. Make reusable grenades not have a skill requirement and make the BoP armor recipes BoE. That way crafting is more useful for making money and we don't have to switch craftings just to get sought after items.

 

yes it changes because you never need to buy another one so biochems go broke forever because the only reusables you can trade never bind at all. the rakata versions will never be tradeable because the base mat is BoP

[Sky_walkerPL]

+1 to removing BoP from all craftable items. It never made sense. Stuff like that should run with crewskill requirement, not Bind on Pickup & than change profession. Lol. Seriously bioware?!

 

+1 for removing reusables. They can have lower cost than regular items, sure, but CONSUMABLES SHOULDN'T BE REUSABLE. (ps. Yes, I will loose a lot myself on saying this but i still see that it's propably on top of the dumbest things bioware ever implemented in this game.)

[Manathayria]

Like the title says, i think it's time to end this. It clearly is overpowering because having a free heal, free adrenals and free stims is just too powerful.

 

Even Biochemists should want this change, because with so many biochemists, the market for stims and medpacs is just not there.

 

The perks for a biochemist should be stronger stim/adrenals/medpacs for their own use only. Change the reusables to the Exotech (requiring 400 biochem to use), and drop their mats to only requiring one Radioactive Paste (4 is absurd).

 

Adrenals are too expensive currently. A good start would be to cut their mats by half.

 

For ops schematics, make the Exotech have a 4 hour duration that anybody can use (and requiring 4 Radioactive Paste).

 

The other crafting skills aren't broken. Some require tweeks, but they ARE viable. It's just when people compare them to Biochem, they see it as useless. When people look up stims and see that 2 stims is the same price as a reusable, it's a no-brainer that stims are a ripoff or/and that biochem reusables is too fantastic to not have.

 

Have you ever thought that maybe people are going bio-chem not because it's over powered, but because the rest are underpowered?

 

There is -nothing- end game that the rest of the skills offer that I give a damn about. I mean, I could likely have cycled around the others to get the bis pieces and then gone back to BC... but still. Nothing, *nothing* that anything other than biochem offers is really worth use at end game aside from those. The other crafting skills need buffed, biochem does not need the nerf.

 

Nerfing biochem will do little more than cause biochems to charge everyone else MORE because suddenly, they have to farm for their own materials. Seems mildly silly to force a jump in price for the skill because someone hates the idea of the re-usables

[Spero-Mcgee]

Just out of curiosity how many adrenals do you use during a boss fight?

Because considering the amount of mats it takes to create the blue adrenals I kind of understand the concerns the others are voicing. I'm having fun with my other non biochem crafts but I can certainly understand why other people have dropped theyre other crafts.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Spero-Mcgee

[havok_bloodcraft]

Just out of curiosity how many adrenals do you use during a boss fight?

Because considering the amount of mats it takes to create the blue adrenals I kind of understand the concerns the others are voicing. I'm having fun with my other non biochem crafts but I can certainly understand why other people have dropped theyre other crafts.

 

1 they have a 3 minute cooldown if boss is still up after 3 mins then a 2nd one if boss is still up after 6 mins you are not winning.

[idipper]

Like the title says, i think it's time to end this. It clearly is overpowering because having a free heal, free adrenals and free stims is just too powerful.

 

Even Biochemists should want this change, because with so many biochemists, the market for stims and medpacs is just not there.

 

The perks for a biochemist should be stronger stim/adrenals/medpacs for their own use only. Change the reusables to the Exotech (requiring 400 biochem to use), and drop their mats to only requiring one Radioactive Paste (4 is absurd).

 

Adrenals are too expensive currently. A good start would be to cut their mats by half.

 

For ops schematics, make the Exotech have a 4 hour duration that anybody can use (and requiring 4 Radioactive Paste).

 

The other crafting skills aren't broken. Some require tweeks, but they ARE viable. It's just when people compare them to Biochem, they see it as useless. When people look up stims and see that 2 stims is the same price as a reusable, it's a no-brainer that stims are a ripoff or/and that biochem reusables is too fantastic to not have.

 

Go **** yourself, our consumables are weaker than exotech. L2 make money and buy stims for raids you baby.

Edited February 19, 2012 by idipper

[Spero-Mcgee]

1 they have a 3 minute cooldown if boss is still up after 3 mins then a 2nd one if boss is still up after 6 mins you are not winning.

 

I see. So in actuality you don't really need that many adrenals at all, especially if your groups are doing well. And by not winning you mean the boss goes into rage mode and whipes the raid or just that it takes longer?

Because I remember my CASUAL guild raids in wow, sometimes a boss would take at least 10+ mins, but we would always get them. Granted if you keep wiping you would need a ton of adrenals, but I'm assuming the use here is in raids that do decent enough.

In which case 2 adrenals per boss seems fairly reasonable to me.

It's not like getting a surplus of mats is hard to do, only thing (with everything rly) that can hold you back in that regard is just having creds to spare or not.

[Descends]

ending biochems reusables will end biochem completely.... serves no purpose beyond that. The idea shouldnt be to take away everything useful...but to buff other things that are slacking to make em more appealing.

[Phoboo]

No, I don't agree with OP.

[schwiz]

I see. So in actuality you don't really need that many adrenals at all, especially if your groups are doing well. And by not winning you mean the boss goes into rage mode and whipes the raid or just that it takes longer?

Because I remember my CASUAL guild raids in wow, sometimes a boss would take at least 10+ mins, but we would always get them. Granted if you keep wiping you would need a ton of adrenals, but I'm assuming the use here is in raids that do decent enough.

In which case 2 adrenals per boss seems fairly reasonable to me.

It's not like getting a surplus of mats is hard to do, only thing (with everything rly) that can hold you back in that regard is just having creds to spare or not.

 

Yeah I think nearly every boss in the game has a 5 minute enrage timer. You MIGHT be able to you two adrenals during a fight but its not often.

[GooseGrims]

EVERYONE who is not biochem right now is a F-O-O-L.

 

yea cause nothing in an MMO ever changes...