SuperSair Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Copy and paste Hold the Line from Vanguard Tactics, it would be perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldin Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Here's the main point... Shadows and Assassins get a sprint, and an enemy pull (if they spec it). They can go into stealth and have skills to restealth in combat. Scoundrels and Operatives also have stealth. They don't however, have any pulls, sprints, or leaps. If one stealth class gets them, why doesn't the other? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AetherMcLoud Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Making a melee class without ANY incombat gap closer is simply a futile design. Paladins in the game with the 3 letters never had a gap closer in their melee spec and look how that turned out. It's simple math: If you don't have a gap closer, the time you DO spent on your target has to hurt THAT much more. Ops had that burst but that was taken away from them, so the only sensible thing to do is give them some kind of gap closer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leszor Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) Other than not having a gap closer, we also have a fairly unreliable snare Against force speed users you are pretty much forced to save it till they use it so you can root-negate it, otherwise they just road runner troll you and theres just no way you can get back on the target if he is actually pressing some buttons What i'd like is have the root moved to its own skill and tendon blast/op's counterpart tweaked to lesser duration but lesser cd instead of 12/12, and maybe improve the related talent to increase the duration, like the one in the Shadow/Assassin infiltration tree Also i dont get why people say "stealth is your gap closer"... Shadow/Assassins have the same exact stealth mechanics but also force speed... so what gives? Edited February 20, 2012 by Leszor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antilogical Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) This is an issue I feel cannot simply be ignored and forgotten about, so I am bumping this thread. I don't think any non-operatives/scoundrels realise how tedious it is to try and stay right behind your target while in the thick of it. Almost every other class, if not every other class has some way of forcibly moving people, or instantly moving to a different location. This can be extremely annoying when for example: - You are cutting up a warrior when he decides to leap to a target, forcing you to either a) let the warrior/knight go b) try in vein to run after them, out of stealth or c) pop your 3 minute cool-down instant re-stealth, which can easily be negated by using an AoE. - You are playing a game of Huttball, and you are on the platforms cutting up your target when he decides to use his AoE knock-back, sending you flying off the edge and with the inquisitor/sniper/BH sending ranged damage your way while you helplessly try to run away. - You are cutting up your chosen target when a friendly inquisitor/sniper/BH decides to use HIS AoE knock-back on your target, sending them meters and forcing you to run after them, while they most likely run away. Or they could even get hit of the platforms in Huttball, which is just a bigger issue then. - You are cutting up your chosen target in Huttball when a friendly BH/inquisitor decides to pull your target towards him, forcing you to let the target go and give him to the BH/inquisitor, or run right around up the ramp to reach your target, at which point he could already be dead or running off. - You are cutting up your an inquisitor when he decides to use his force sprint, leaving several unreclaimable meters between you and him, and at which point you should probably just give up. This is why operative and scoundrels deserve a gap closer, I really don’t even care if they nerf some of out stuns, as they generate huge amounts of resolve anyway, and become more of a hindrance to your team rather then really assisting them in any way. Overall it would make the class much more enjoyable then it already is. I understand that there is some hate towards operatives and scoundrels due to their high burst damage, and you may be reluctant but try and see it from out point of view. Even though we have stealth, it is really difficult to get out of combat to re-stealth, and even in stealth we move slower/at the same speed as everyone else, so we cant really gain any raw distance by simply running after them, and out longest range stun is a mere 10m, which also un-stealths us. So like I said, tedious. I hope people will take the time to consider supporting the idea of giving the operatives and scoundrels a gap closer, even if it does mean more nerfs. Thanks! Edited February 21, 2012 by Antilogical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fungihoujo Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Just played a match with an operative- 400k damage, 100k healing, beat the next on his team by over 150k damage. Takes half health in opener, can't be escaped from, can escape any fight he's losing, can do constant high damage while chasing without losing energy. Stealth is an amazing gap closer. You have stuns, high damage, snares, heals, mez, ranged damage and melee damage- mid fight stealth to escape. Any way you look at it, your class has it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gryhmr Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Ops are still incredibly good. They open on me and before I can do anything I am slowed and at half health. The only chance someone has is to run or consumable chug. Ops do not need any more utility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raelimar Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Stealth is an amazing gap closer. Uh huh. And yet Shadows get a pull and a Sprint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fungihoujo Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Uh huh. And yet Shadows get a pull and a Sprint. Reroll shadow then if ops are so bad and shadows so good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrekorSilverfang Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Stealth is a gap closer. You can't use it in combat. But look at a sent. He can either open with his gap closer or not. But if he opens with his gap closer he'll eat a knockback and be in the same exact situation as the Op/Sc, except that he didn't open by taking off 50% of his target's health. He also can't just hide somewhere and wait for his cooldowns to come back between encounters. Oh man that's good. First off if I'm on my Marauder and I force charge into someone then they knock me back I hit force camo which is good stealth gap closer. It's a short CD, short duration stealth with a movespeed buff. I get back in range without opponents being able to do anything about it and continue blowing them up. I should also point out with my spec it makes me 100% immune to damage for it's duration. I also never have to hide... I don't have to wait 30s to hope to drop combat to stealth on my marauder. I just charge again in 12s, big deal. Ops can't do that because cloaking screen has a 3m cooldown and makes them immune to heals and not able to heal anyone else and they MUST combine it with evasion to drop DoTs or they'll be brought out of stealth immediately. You can also just AoE on them to reveal them anyways. Even if I manage to kill one target I need to run to the other side of the map to break combat and restealth. Op/Sin stealth is NOT a gap closing mechanic it's a surprise/burst enabling mechanic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaosmagistrate Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Oh man that's good. First off if I'm on my Marauder and I force charge into someone then they knock me back I hit force camo which is good stealth gap closer. It's a short CD, short duration stealth with a movespeed buff. I get back in range without opponents being able to do anything about it and continue blowing them up. I should also point out with my spec it makes me 100% immune to damage for it's duration. I also never have to hide... I don't have to wait 30s to hope to drop combat to stealth on my marauder. I just charge again in 12s, big deal. Ops can't do that because cloaking screen has a 3m cooldown and makes them immune to heals and not able to heal anyone else and they MUST combine it with evasion to drop DoTs or they'll be brought out of stealth immediately. You can also just AoE on them to reveal them anyways. Even if I manage to kill one target I need to run to the other side of the map to break combat and restealth. Op/Sin stealth is NOT a gap closing mechanic it's a surprise/burst enabling mechanic. A serious Op/Scoundrel for PvP would have Vanish talented to 2minutes and be talented to accept heals while Vanished Scoundrels.Operatives no longer have the insta-gibb ability, and have a trickier rotation(not exactly difficult, but more difficult than before) than pre-1.1. The nerfs may have been a bit harsh, especially for PvE, where Scrapper/Conc specs are terrible, but most Scoundrels/Operatives who relied on buff-stacking were terrible to begin with, so much that most of them on our server have re-specced healing or don't bother playing at all. It just goes to show how weak some players are. Personally, instead of a gap closer, I'd like to see some more sustained damage out of stealth or a little more survivability out of stealth. Scoundrels/Ops lost their insta-gibb, which was needed anyways, but now the playstyle is more group/team-oriented versus solo-put your fist up their no-no-spot, which be quite challenging when your team isn't too bright. And yes, I play a Scoundrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ich_Bin Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Just played a match with an operative- 400k damage, 100k healing, beat the next on his team by over 150k damage. That is it. Big damage numbers have broken Scoundrel's/Operative's necks. Because they don't show, how much utility the class has but almost everyone who DOENS'T play one thinks they are doing great. No knockback No gapcloser No sprint No pull/harpoon NO utility in huttball... NONE But I guess at this point it's going to take rated warzones until everyone realizes just how bad this class is compared to any other class. When noone wants to have Scoundrels/Ops in their team anymore maybe the devs will react. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raelimar Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) Reroll shadow then if ops are so bad and shadows so good. Rerolled a Sorc. I'm a healer, not DPS. If you didn't notice that Inquisitors/Consulars of all specs own competitive Huttball, we're not playing the same game. Edited February 21, 2012 by raelimar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howbadisbad Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Just played a match with an operative- 400k damage, 100k healing, beat the next on his team by over 150k damage. Takes half health in opener, can't be escaped from, can escape any fight he's losing, can do constant high damage while chasing without losing energy. Stealth is an amazing gap closer. You have stuns, high damage, snares, heals, mez, ranged damage and melee damage- mid fight stealth to escape. Any way you look at it, your class has it all. You have clearly never played an Operative. There is zero advantage to playing one over another class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redmarx Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Operatives are very weak in PVP right now. This will become much more obvious when rated warzones come out. They need both a gap closer and better sustained damage. It's only fair given how they are right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SammuelSK Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) I rolled Operative first got to 50, had a ******** of fun and learned the class. Then I rolled a BH healer, got her to 50 as well and noticed how useless operatives are when it comes to trying to kill anyone who's got a healer near them. And if I am the target? Currently if an Op gets the drop on me I don't even bother to interupt the stun. Just wait it out, the burst is of no concern anymore, get up and knock them way the **** back. If knockback is on cooldown, bubble up(or stun them) and heal yourself back up to full. Now I'm rolling up a Sniper, level 37 at the momment and I've never been killed one on one by an operative. Knockbacks, stuns, roots, and insane damage with zero need to actually position myself give me every single advantage I need to melt any Ops face that gets near me. Do I miss my Op? Sure, he was pretty cool. But as designed other classes do things a hell of alot better(more damage, more burst, better CC, etc) then an Operative with alot less frustration. The class needs some serious help. Edited February 21, 2012 by SammuelSK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaosmagistrate Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 The nerfs to Ops/Scoundrels were way too overboard, agreed. Especially as some people have mentioned, Ops/Scoundrels are hard-pressed to be effective in Huttball. They are actually still pretty good, but only against weak teams. Against organized teams, coming out of Stealth is a death wish. The distincitve shotgun opener and blade stab means that everyone within a quarter mile knows that an Ops/Scoundrel has just opened up on a juciy target. Now, not sure if this is payback for the pre-1.1 ********, but a good team will immediately switch and burn the Ops/Sc down. Ops/Sc have been regulated to a role more suited to Sentinels and Focus Guardians. They no longer have the scare power against coordinated teams. They are still powerful 1v1 players, especially against under-geared new people, but they no longer have that 3-shot, surprise-buttsecks opener. Most Ops/Sc were trash anyways, and I am glad to see that most of them re-roll and not ruin our classes' reputation, but now DPS Ops/Sc are one of the more difficult classes to play effectively. For the most part as most informed people have pointed out, for most roles, other classes do do it better. Ops/Sc still have a lot of synergy in group situations, and I do fine in premades, but they are hands down now the most position-dependent class and require a competent team more than any other class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howbadisbad Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Operatives are very weak in PVP right now. This will become much more obvious when rated warzones come out. They need both a gap closer and better sustained damage. It's only fair given how they are right now. Their terrible sustained damage comes from the fact that their bread and butter moves have huge cooldowns/requirements/energy costs. Backstab 9s CD must be behind Shiv 6s CD Lacerate Requires TA/poison (Shiv/HS/AB) Hidden Strike Requires Stealth Acid blade 15 Energy No other class has such lulzworthy bread and butter skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Absit Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 About the only thing I can accomplish in Huttball is either getting my damage medal by DoTing everyting that moves and tossing grenades in the pack (in other words, be a Gunslinger) or stealth on the enemy's goal line (Shadows are FAR superior at this with more defense, sprint, CC, etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MightyHalo Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I rolled Operative first got to 50, had a ******** of fun and learned the class. Then I rolled a BH healer, got her to 50 as well and noticed how useless operatives are when it comes to trying to kill anyone who's got a healer near them. And if I am the target? Currently if an Op gets the drop on me I don't even bother to interupt the stun. Just wait it out, the burst is of no concern anymore, get up and knock them way the **** back. If knockback is on cooldown, bubble up(or stun them) and heal yourself back up to full. Now I'm rolling up a Sniper, level 37 at the momment and I've never been killed one on one by an operative. Knockbacks, stuns, roots, and insane damage with zero need to actually position myself give me every single advantage I need to melt any Ops face that gets near me. Do I miss my Op? Sure, he was pretty cool. But as designed other classes do things a hell of alot better(more damage, more burst, better CC, etc) then an Operative with alot less frustration. The class needs some serious help. lol dude you are full of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ich_Bin Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) lol dude you are full of it. He most certainly is not. You should try to take on a BH healer as a Scoundrel/Op 1v1. I wish you the best of luck Edited February 22, 2012 by Ich_Bin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howbadisbad Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 lol dude you are full of it. Lol dude play an Operative and come back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sookster Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) lol dude you are full of it. So the gap closer is stealth, wait, doesn't assassin have stealth too... AND force speed? Yeah operative needs a sprint of some kind, right now I rely on debilitating the closest enemy (doesn't always happen) for the extra speed boost. Edited February 22, 2012 by Sookster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwkingms Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 gap closer is stealth open for a ton of dmg use your ranged abilities if ur bad enough to be kited outside of that what do u want 100% uptime on ur target? get real and l2p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Absit Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) gap closer is stealth open for a ton of dmg use your ranged abilities if ur bad enough to be kited outside of that what do u want 100% uptime on ur target? Get real and l2p Nihil - 50 Sith Sorcerer 7/18/16 Nih'l - 50 Sith Juggernaut 0/10/31 Daragon Trail Nihil - 50 Sith Sorcerer 7/18/16 QFT5char Edited February 22, 2012 by Absit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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