The reason Sorcerer/Sage CC is OP in PvP

[Posixgod]

yes vales, i agree with you, which is why i only said he implies this, it doesn't mean it's true.

 

my only issue with the OP isn't with his argument's presentation or saying that he's showing false information. i simply disagree because he personally has either overcame the apparently overpowered abilities of a sorcerer, or he never had an issue to begin with as he does better than sorcerers in pvp or maybe marauders are overpowered when fighting sorcerers. although i personally will never believe that in the current game state.

 

so my reaction is, if the OP can do it why can't others? why is it always the classes' fault?

 

In actuality, MOST classes in game need their respected class trees re-worked, while the OP does make a few decent points, I'm going to have to disagree with the aforementioned suggested changes as it will make the sorcerer all but useless in PVE and PVP.

 

However, I would be willing to entertain the idea of doing this all across the board, a full on re-evaluation of ALL classes trees and perhaps moving things here and there to prevent what the OP is getting at.

 

I understand Sorc's have a lot of utility, but the reason we have this utility is mainly due to the fact that we're a squishy paper bag at best.

 

I'm so sick of the bubble coming up in conversation, you have to spec into the break \ blind, it doesn't stay up all the time, it's effectively padding if anything else to offset the lack of mitigation through armor.

 

OP, not dissing your post at all, I just don't particularly agree with your mentioned changes specifically pointed at the Sorc class.

[savionen]

In actuality, MOST classes in game need their respected class trees re-worked, while the OP does make a few decent points, I'm going to have to disagree with the aforementioned suggested changes as it will make the sorcerer all but useless in PVE and PVP.

 

However, I would be willing to entertain the idea of doing this all across the board, a full on re-evaluation of ALL classes trees and perhaps moving things here and there to prevent what the OP is getting at.

 

I understand Sorc's have a lot of utility, but the reason we have this utility is mainly due to the fact that we're a squishy paper bag at best.

 

I'm so sick of the bubble coming up in conversation, you have to spec into the break \ blind, it doesn't stay up all the time, it's effectively padding if anything else to offset the lack of mitigation through armor.

 

OP, not dissing your post at all, I just don't particularly agree with your mentioned changes specifically pointed at the Sorc class.

 

The difference between heavy armor (non-tank) and light armor is about 15% damage on kinetic/energy, ONLY. Heavy armor doesn't block elemental/internal.

 

Bubble blocks around 3k damage, and can cast every 20 seconds. They'd have to do 20k+ kinetic/energy damage to you in less than 20 seconds in order for heavy armor to be better than light armor + bubble.

[JohnSixteen]

The difference between heavy armor (non-tank) and light armor is about 15% damage on kinetic/energy, ONLY. Heavy armor doesn't block elemental/internal.

 

Bubble blocks around 3k damage, and can cast every 20 seconds. They'd have to do 20k+ kinetic/energy damage to you in less than 20 seconds in order for heavy armor to be better than light armor + bubble.

 

Except that you can also cast bubble on somebody with heavy armor?

 

Oh that's right, this game is built around 1v1, cause that happens ALL the time.

[Renlotho]

Pop tarts are weak. They got nerfed along time ago. Toaster Strudel is OP and in need of a nerf though.

 

Have to agree here. Also hotpockets were good in 1997 if I was wasted enough, but now seem broken, they need a buff.

[shaidarlol]

The difference between heavy armor (non-tank) and light armor is about 15% damage on kinetic/energy, ONLY. Heavy armor doesn't block elemental/internal.

 

Bubble blocks around 3k damage, and can cast every 20 seconds. They'd have to do 20k+ kinetic/energy damage to you in less than 20 seconds in order for heavy armor to be better than light armor + bubble.

 

if you think 15% damage mitigation is nothing there is something completely wrong with you.

 

while heavy armor doesn't block elemental/internal damage, neither does light armor so the comparison is irrelevant. majority of the damage that most classes have are kinetic/energy, there are very few abilities, outside of powertechs that actually have most of their damage as unmitigated by armor.

 

edit: to further analyze this, 20k damage in 20 seconds means 1k damage per second, since everyone's gcd is 1.5, you need to 3k damage every 2 attacks to make it bubble equal to what heavy armor mitigates and if you can do more than 3k, heavy armor is already better than bubble. what class in the game right now can't do 3k in 2 attacks?

 

1 tracer missile crit already does 2.5-3k....that's just 1 example btw

Edited February 15, 2012 by shaidarlol

[RG_jhanlec]

I dont really think any class needs direct nerfs or buffs. I find that situationally every class is really strong.

 

The only factor I find sightly out of whack is resolve. Most people are dead long before it becomes a factor and when it is up, it only lasts a few seconds at best. In the grand scheme of well performing teams this becomes slightly less noticeable, but we all need to face the facts. Majority of people PUG PvP and here is where resolve really starts to fall short.

 

I also feel the CD on overload is probably too short. This is most noticeable in hutball. I have been on and played against teams that have a sin or sorc guard the catwalk and overload people off almost non-stop. The only way to counter is a warrior jump up toward goal area, which they can be and often are CCd immediately after getting up, or have a stealther wait for a pass. These fold are also often stunned then knocked back, pulled etc into the pit again.

 

If the CD was longer, say 1 min like almost every other CC similar in game (which usually only effect 1 target I might add), it could change this a bit.

 

If roots added to CC at the same rate as a stun that could change things a lot too. They could lower the amount of resolve needed to be CC immune to match health pools so that it may actually help people. Then make it last longer than 3-5 seconds....

 

Damage wise and situationally I feel most classes have their niche, but with majority of people in PUGs and CC/resolve being the way it is, I personally find it "off".

 

I dont want this to detract from the fact that I actually enjoy PvP in this game most of the time. I also am happy to take a break if the matches aren't going well for a bit too. Momentum for each side swings here and there pretty often I feel. I could lose 10 in a row to republic, then win 10 in a row next. Dont know why, I usually always finish with same medals/stats no matter which... guess its just luck.

Edited February 15, 2012 by RG_jhanlec

[insertsalias]

I LOL'd at the OP...Its always the "TOP" player for the class thats complaining about getting butthurt.

 

I play a marauder...if everyone knew how to actually use them in pvp everyone would post something similar to what you have.

[ScipioAemilianus]

In actuality, MOST classes in game need their respected class trees re-worked, while the OP does make a few decent points, I'm going to have to disagree with the aforementioned suggested changes as it will make the sorcerer all but useless in PVE and PVP.

 

However, I would be willing to entertain the idea of doing this all across the board, a full on re-evaluation of ALL classes trees and perhaps moving things here and there to prevent what the OP is getting at.

 

I understand Sorc's have a lot of utility, but the reason we have this utility is mainly due to the fact that we're a squishy paper bag at best.

 

I'm so sick of the bubble coming up in conversation, you have to spec into the break \ blind, it doesn't stay up all the time, it's effectively padding if anything else to offset the lack of mitigation through armor.

 

OP, not dissing your post at all, I just don't particularly agree with your mentioned changes specifically pointed at the Sorc class.

 

This. I think the concept of what was intended is not in actuality what is coming out. however if hey are goign to do it it should be done with the input of the community. I am against sweepign changes, however I do feel alot of things in all classes skill trees need looked at, as some are just garbage. Some skills need taken out and thrown away. The community prolly won't like it, but if you reduce, improve then add to make the changes.

 

I did beta, but I don't know how the developers tested out classes. the roles are not clearly defined, I don't like it, and some people have a hard time grasping this, but in some respects I like how you have to be versitile. This might be where some of the issues come in, reminds me of the players who want to do everything at the same time in one class. Some games have clear cut roles and that helps better define what a class should or should not be doing. Clearly if BW wants the gamee to continue and grow they need to do something. problem is everything is all over the board.

 

Do they have reps that are community members that represent classes and can narrow arguements down in a room? There needs to just be some data gathering and a team that works solutions. But they had better take head of mistakes from other games and listen to thier community.

[RG_jhanlec]

I LOL'd at the OP...Its always the "TOP" player for the class thats complaining about getting butthurt.

 

I play a marauder...if everyone knew how to actually use them in pvp everyone would post something similar to what you have.

 

I have a Marauder at 50 now too; I like more than my 50 Jugg a lot. I think that marauders dont get the "nerf" tag as often because its a bit harder to play and be good at.

 

I play annihilation personally now (played carnage the whole way up to around 2 weeks ago) and find that if I am good about timing my skills to optimize dots and berserk I can stay up and seriously hurt people quickly. The second something is mis-timed or a bit off though, its hard to recover and get into that "mode" again until I can restart all my CDs at once. A sorc/merc (mirrors) doesnt have that issue to the same extent. They press 1 of 3 buttons over and over and break it up with CCs (roots first, stun when they really feel in danger).

[Lormif]

I LOL'd at the OP...Its always the "TOP" player for the class thats complaining about getting butthurt.

 

I play a marauder...if everyone knew how to actually use them in pvp everyone would post something similar to what you have.

 

What I love is that he shows that they get owned 1v1 but are great in a group.. Nerf their CC and they get owned even harder in 1v1, which then aslo makes their group useless, because when the enemy does see them and attacks they will die even faster.

[savionen]

if you think 15% damage mitigation is nothing there is something completely wrong with you.

 

while heavy armor doesn't block elemental/internal damage, neither does light armor so the comparison is irrelevant. majority of the damage that most classes have are kinetic/energy, there are very few abilities, outside of powertechs that actually have most of their damage as unmitigated by armor.

 

edit: to further analyze this, 20k damage in 20 seconds means 1k damage per second, since everyone's gcd is 1.5, you need to 3k damage every 2 attacks to make it bubble equal to what heavy armor mitigates and if you can do more than 3k, heavy armor is already better than bubble. what class in the game right now can't do 3k in 2 attacks?

 

1 tracer missile crit already does 2.5-3k....that's just 1 example btw

 

I'm not saying that heavy armor is worthless. I'm saying that bubble is massively better. I'm not really sure what sort of math you're using.

 

Half of the skills in this game are elemental/internal or ignore armor in some fashion.

 

Heavy armor is actually closer to 30%, and bubble can be reduced to 17seconds, and BM would bubble for 3500, so that's actually closer to 30k damage over 20 seconds.

 

Tracer Missile ignores 20% of armor, so that 30% becomes 24% while the 20% becomes 16%. That means that a Heavy Armored target takes 8% less damage from Tracer Missiles than a Sorcerer.

 

Assuming an average of 2500 per Tracer missile, per 1.5sec, for 16.5 seconds, that'd be 27500 damage before mitigation.

 

A Sorcerer blocks 3000 of that, and reduces the rest by 18%.

The Sorcerer would take 20090 damage.

 

Assuming the Sorcerer pre-cast Bubble, that'd be 17090.

 

A Heavy-armor blocks 0 of that, and reduces by 24%.

The Heavy-armored class would take 20900 damage.

 

When as a Sorcerer are you going to have somebody sitting on you spamming attacks, you've got every possible escape in the book ONTOP of bubble. Heavy-armored classes don't have any escape skills, ontop of Sorcerers having more CC than any other class. The Sorcerer can do a dozen different things to prevent the Tracer Missile spam ontop of Bubble preventing damage.

Edited February 15, 2012 by savionen

[Lormif]

I'm not saying that heavy armor is worthless. I'm saying that bubble is massively better. I'm not really sure what sort of math you're using.

 

Half of the skills in this game are elemental/internal or ignore armor in some fashion.

 

Heavy armor is actually closer to 30%, and bubble can be reduced to 17seconds, and BM would bubble for 3500, so that's actually closer to 30k damage over 20 seconds.

 

Tracer Missile ignores 20% of armor, so that 30% becomes 24% while the 20% becomes 16%. That means that a Heavy Armored target takes 8% less damage from Tracer Missiles than a Sorcerer.

 

Assuming an average of 2500 per Tracer missile, per 1.5sec, for 16.5 seconds, that'd be 27500 damage before mitigation.

 

A Sorcerer blocks 3000 of that, and reduces the rest by 18%.

The Sorcerer would take 20090 damage.

 

Assuming the Sorcerer pre-cast Bubble, that'd be 17090.

 

A Heavy-armor blocks 0 of that, and reduces by 24%.

The Heavy-armored class would take 20900 damage.

 

When as a Sorcerer are you going to have somebody sitting on you spamming attacks, you've got every possible escape in the book ONTOP of bubble. Heavy-armored classes don't have any escape skills, ontop of Sorcerers having more CC than any other class. The Sorcerer can do a dozen different things to prevent the Tracer Missile spam ontop of Bubble preventing damage.

 

Most of the sorc abilities are kenetic, you need full specs for internal to be usefull.

 

 

Also since we are talking about GROUPS issues (since most admit it is hard for a sorc to be good 1v1) your comparison shows that in groups a scalable 30% is better then a static 3 or 3.5k bubble.

[Tumri]

And in any group situation a Sorcerer is the best class because they bring far more to the table than anyone else. Edited February 15, 2012 by Tumri

[Lormif]

Most of the sorc abilities are kenetic, you need full specs for internal to be usefull.

 

 

Also since we are talking about GROUPS issues (since most admit it is hard for a sorc to be good 1v1) your comparison shows that in groups a scalable 30% is better then a static 3 or 3.5k bubble.

 

In addition, since I figured I would show Lets assume we are BMS, AND I had a precast of bubble on me, and you have 30% damage reduction. If you have 20k damage I have to do about 30k damage to you to kill you with my kinetic damage, and this keep scaling. The more hps you have the better it is... In this specific example your static armor protected you from almost 10k damage, where as mine protected from the static 7k damage.

[Lormif]

And in any group situation a Sorcerer is the best class because they bring far more to the table than anyone else.

 

Not always. If you need to burst down a healer, they are not the best. If you need to CC a single target, no because we are limited by resolve.. If you wanna CC multiple people for short periods sure, but then the more sorcs/sages the worst that is.

[shaidarlol]

I'm not saying that heavy armor is worthless. I'm saying that bubble is massively better. I'm not really sure what sort of math you're using.

 

Half of the skills in this game are elemental/internal or ignore armor in some fashion.

 

Heavy armor is actually closer to 30%, and bubble can be reduced to 17seconds, and BM would bubble for 3500, so that's actually closer to 30k damage over 20 seconds.

 

Tracer Missile ignores 20% of armor, so that 30% becomes 24% while the 20% becomes 16%. That means that a Heavy Armored target takes 8% less damage from Tracer Missiles than a Sorcerer.

 

Assuming an average of 2500 per Tracer missile, per 1.5sec, for 16.5 seconds, that'd be 27500 damage before mitigation.

 

A Sorcerer blocks 3000 of that, and reduces the rest by 18%.

The Sorcerer would take 20090 damage.

 

Assuming the Sorcerer pre-cast Bubble, that'd be 17090.

 

A Heavy-armor blocks 0 of that, and reduces by 24%.

The Heavy-armored class would take 20900 damage.

 

When as a Sorcerer are you going to have somebody sitting on you spamming attacks, you've got every possible escape in the book ONTOP of bubble. Heavy-armored skills don't have any escape skills, ontop of more CC than any other class. The Sorcerer can do a dozen different things to prevent the Tracer Missile spam.

 

heavy armor classes most certainly have escape skills if by escape you mean cc. you are correct a sorcerer can indeed do multiple things to prevent tracer missile spam, but so can just about every other class. and i only used tracer missile as an example to show you how much damage a class can output in 2 globals, i am not singling out tracer missile as a skill.

 

also 2.5k-3k is the number i see that i get when a full pvp geared merc hit me, which means it has already been mitigated by my armor.

 

lastly, my sorcerer which is 3/4 bm 1/4 champ geared has 2471 armor which mitigates 18.62% kineitc/energy

 

while i'll admit my math wasn't 100% correct, i believe the estimate between how good a bubble vs heavy armor is pretty close. in different situations 1 is clearly better than the other. but no way shape or form is bubble MASSIVELY better than heavy by any means.

[savionen]

Most of the sorc abilities are kenetic, you need full specs for internal to be usefull.

 

 

Also since we are talking about GROUPS issues (since most admit it is hard for a sorc to be good 1v1) your comparison shows that in groups a scalable 30% is better then a static 3 or 3.5k bubble.

 

If everyone is focus-firing you, and you decide to sit there and do nothing, yeah. In that sort of situation any heavy armor class pretty much has to sit there and take it and hope to be healed. A sorcerer can force run, CC multiple people, LoS and heal, etc. And if you're specced for it they'll all get blinded if they DO break your bubble.

[Calista_ZK]

That's not what I said, dude. I said the damage is fine. Its their utility in huttball I don't like. Read my post and you'll see what I mean. In combat Sprint, shield and AOE KNOCKBACK on 10 or 15 sec CD makes them kings of Huttball...

 

Don't stand where you can be knocked off.....

 

Calling for a change to a class because of a wz map is just ridiculous.

 

BW should work on how the wz are formed (i.e. group composition, or map configuration) , or in meantime, you can queue as a pre-made.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Calista_ZK

[Posixgod]

And in any group situation a Sorcerer is the best class because they bring far more to the table than anyone else.

 

That's such a vague argument, as far as utility is concerned? perhaps but, again as mentioned time and time again, how much of that utility can be negated by a competent player? In my personal experience, it would appear that a lot of people seem to use only a very small percentage of available abilities / strategies against any one particular class being that each situation is just that, situational, you can't apply the same logic for every class as each has their respected strengths and weaknesses, sorc's included.

 

I get what you're saying on the hybrid end and sadly, most of those specs you posted are trash at best, hybrid or not.

 

I'm not disagreeing with the underlying issue, I just don't think completely re-arranging the sorc tree is the answer for the percentage of players who quite simply, just don't know enough about class dynamics.

[shaidarlol]

If everyone is focus-firing you, and you decide to sit there and do nothing, yeah. In that sort of situation any heavy armor class pretty much has to sit there and take it and hope to be healed. A sorcerer can force run, CC multiple people, LoS and heal, etc. And if you're specced for it they'll all get blinded if they DO break your bubble.

 

it is anecdotal situations like this that makes everything you say irrelevant

[shaidarlol]

@tumri

 

i still wonder how you can even claim what you claim, when clearly given your own screen shots, that you do better than basically every single sorcerer that is in the match with you.

 

yet, you still believe in your OP.

[Chaostie]

Sigh.

When will people learn it's not an over power problem but a balance problem...

[Lormif]

If everyone is focus-firing you, and you decide to sit there and do nothing, yeah.

If everyone is focus fireing me then I will probably have snares on me, not to mention massive damage, by the time you CC several people and start to run, while slowed, you will still die.

 

In that sort of situation any heavy armor class pretty much has to sit there and take it and hope to be healed. A sorcerer can force run, CC multiple people, LoS and heal, etc.

Not true, you still have CCs and escapes. If you chose not to use them that is not my fault.

 

And if you're specced for it they'll all get blinded if they DO break your bubble.

that is a BIG IF, cause if they are not ranged (remember about half the classes are, if they are they will not be stunned.

[Zhentarion]

How many whiners about Sorcers are old diablo players ! Gahaha

[savionen]

If everyone is focus fireing me then I will probably have snares on me, not to mention massive damage, by the time you CC several people and start to run, while slowed, you will still die.

 

 

Not true, you still have CCs and escapes. If you chose not to use them that is not my fault.

 

 

that is a BIG IF, cause if they are not ranged (remember about half the classes are, if they are they will not be stunned.

 

 

What escapes does a Vanguard have?

 

4.0 second ranged stun.

2.5 second melee stun.

 

Considering a Sorcerer has a 4.0 second stun, ranged snare, 8second mez/stun, knockback that roots, blind when bubble breaks and snares on half their attacks, I think the winner is Sorcerer here in terms of escapes.

 

Vanguards can't charge a friendly target, they can harpoon. They can charge if they spec 20 points into the shield tree but currently that's the worst PvP tree for a Vanguard. Even then, charging to ANOTHER enemy has limited functionality for escaping unless there's a pile of your teams healers over there waiting for you.