SWTOR: Can you be different? Will you stand on your own feet?

[KennethHoover]

I don't know about the rest of you, but this thread made me hungry for cake and pie.

[Damioc]

Wow, you're not even... just... I don't even know.

 

TOR is not unique. "It's the same cake with different icing." It has nothing other MMOs don't. There is not game for pie lovers.

 

Btw OP, what do you think pie lovers are looking for?

 

YOU ARE WRONG!!!!!!!

 

SWTOR has a tun of stuff that other mmos dont have!

 

it has STORY TUNS OF STORY

 

LIGHTSABERS!

 

SPACE COMBAT!

 

And its STAR WARS !

 

Even that last part should be enough to call this game diffrent

[Qilz]

In a very simple one word answer ... no

[Dominoris]

2. While it's true that you can divide the community in 3 groups (cake lovers, pie lovers, lovers of both), it's not neccesarily true that they are equally large groups. I fear that they cake lovers far outnumber the other 2 groups. Which is why everyone is selling cake... it's where the money's at.

 

I was going to bring this up, but since it is already stated ... I think the original numbers are a bit skewed.

 

33% may say they want pie, but really, only 10% do. The other 23% of the pie lovers are those that want both cake and pie. This leaves 67% happy with their cake.

 

However ... if there are 3000 people in town and 3 bakeries selling cake, each bakery will have 1000 customers each.

Then one bakery starts selling pie. All of the pie lovers will go there and half of the cake and pie people will start eating there as well. (or all of the cake and pie people coming half of the time). With the OP's numbers, that means 1500 people will flock to the bakery with the new pie menu.. With mine, 450 will eat at the pie shop. I also feel that my numbers are rather generous.

 

Let's go historical.

Ultima Online gave MUDDS a a visual face and introduced the concept of Massively multiplayer instead of the normal multiplayer games before it. In MUDDS you often knew every single person on your server. In UO you were lost in a crowd and needed to find a few friends for safety reasons alone. Lone players were nothing but targets for ganking.

 

UO was followed by EverQuest (where you never quested ... ) where community was the cement that held the game together. Not by design, it just sort of happened. Traveling was a quest in itself, downtime was universal and trade areas sprang up organically. Those who played EQ will tell you that it’s time was done with the Planes of Power expansion and the teleport hub. Even the bazaar where you could go into vendor mode but still had to be online was a community eroding feature. But the subscriber numbers climbed. At it's peak EQ had 1,000,000 active subscribers. This was an unprecedented amount. Other companies tried to get a piece of the pie without much luck. It quickly became apparent that an EQ clone was just a clone and would never see 1/10 of the player base as the original. EQ was king.

 

Until World of Warcraft.

Real working quests by the thousands with rewards worth having made a big impact. It also brought flight points, PvP objectives, guild tools, raids (do you know how long we raided in EQ where you could only have 6 in a group with only the one group doing the most damage got any reward and then only a fraction of the exp the target was worth? But I digress). Wow brought in all the things we think a modern MMORPG should have. And 10 million players.

 

WoW started selling cake. And there were 9 cake lovers for every person eating pie. This leads me to think there may only be 10% total for those that like pie AND those that like both pie and cake.

 

[edited to fix copious spelin miztaks and tpyos]

Edited February 14, 2012 by Dominoris

[Umbral]

The best post I've read for a long time. That's exactly why I like SWTOR. It's unique. It has something other MMORPG doesn't.

 

For those pielovers: there are plenty of other games to choose from if this game doesn't hold your interests. PLay them instead. Let SWTOR be unique and let those who like it as it is play and enjoy it.

Except for the choices when recieving quests, there is absolutely nothing unique about SWTOR. Zip.

 

What can be said about SWTOR is that it is retro. As in, it's the type of game one would have experienced 8 to 10 years ago.

 

So saying "SWTOR should stand on it's own feet" is completely idiotic, since it's in fact standing on outdated features and concepts that mmo gamers have evolved past.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Umbral

[Umbral]

Blizzard attracted kids to start playing MMORPGs ... they kept this player base while still attacting more kids year on year having a player base that grew up with the game ... they make more money with cake as kids love cake. Look at the next expansion ... its marketing for kids, if cake is where the money is ... why advertise pie?

 

Yet the average age of WoW players is between 25 to 35 years old. You know, the demographic that just about every major product out there would kill to attract....... Edited February 14, 2012 by Umbral

[Karudan]

If SW have shipped with a complete new set of progression path than the traditional one from the other MMO, it would have alienated several players. To follow your analogy, I would prefer they started as a Cake shop with a small selection of pie, then gradually increase the pie selection and by that process change the Cake lovers' taste.

 

For me personally Story is the main selling point in any Bioware game and I would like to see more of that present in the endgame process. An alternate progression solely based on story and questing perhaps, also with the possibility of maybe having class cross over story lines.

 

The problem however lies within that the mentality of many gamers that the best possible gear/experience have to come from Operations. Once we get past that mentality we can possibly see some variations to the continuous gear grind or patches only introducing Flashpoints or Operations.

[Zlashie]

World of Warcraft used to be my source for pie before it changed drastically (WotLK).

By the end of Vanilla and start of TBC, WoW had 7million subscribers.

By mid WotLK, they had 11million

And now they have 10 million.

 

A majority of players left WOW at Vanilla and TBC due to alot of changes they disagreed with.

 

So for that, I dont think we can actually conclude that the only way to go is "making cake".

 

World of warcraft got famous but my point of view is that WoW was just at the right place at the right time, nothing else. Doesnt matter if it was cake, pie or pancakes.

[Dominoris]

World of warcraft got famous but my point of view is that WoW was just at the right place at the right time, nothing else. Doesnt matter if it was cake, pie or pancakes.

 

Oh hell yes. There were 10 million people that had plaed EQ all together and everyone was just waiting for something new. Better did not matter that much, just something that was working and at least halfway engaging to play.

 

We are at the next "Right Time" now and while I dearly love this game, I don't think it is quite where it needs to be. Yet. And this path towards a "Call of Duty with a single player speedbump start" is not the wisest choice of directions, in my opinion, if you want the longevity (and ROCI) the genre can produce.

[Tic-]

I was going to bring this up, but since it is already stated ... I think the original numbers are a bit skewed.

 

33% may say they want pie, but really, only 10% do. The other 23% of the pie lovers are those that want both cake and pie. This leaves 67% happy with their cake.

 

However ... if there are 3000 people in town and 3 bakeries selling cake, each bakery will have 1000 customers each.

Then one bakery starts selling pie. All of the pie lovers will go there and half of the cake and pie people will start eating there as well. (or all of the cake and pie people coming half of the time). With the OP's numbers, that means 1500 people will flock to the bakery with the new pie menu.. With mine, 450 will eat at the pie shop. I also feel that my numbers are rather generous.

 

Let's go historical.

Ultima Online gave MUDDS a a visual face and introduced the concept of Massively multiplayer instead of the normal multiplayer games before it. In MUDDS you often knew every single person on your server. In UO you were lost in a crowd and needed to find a few friends for safety reasons alone. Lone players were nothing but targets for ganking.

 

UO was followed by EverQuest (where you never quested ... ) where community was the cement that held the game together. Not by design, it just sort of happened. Traveling was a quest in itself, downtime was universal and trade areas sprang up organically. Those who played EQ will tell you that it’s time was done with the Planes of Power expansion and the teleport hub. Even the bazaar where you could go into vendor mode but still had to be online was a community eroding feature. But the subscriber numbers climbed. At it's peak EQ had 1,000,000 active subscribers. This was an unprecedented amount. Other companies tried to get a piece of the pie without much luck. It quickly became apparent that an EQ clone was just a clone and would never see 1/10 of the player base as the original. EQ was king.

 

Until World of Warcraft.

Real working quests by the thousands with rewards worth having made a big impact. It also brought flight points, PvP objectives, guild tools, raids (do you know how long we raided in EQ where you could only have 6 in a group with only the one group doing the most damage got any reward and then only a fraction of the exp the target was worth? But I digress). Wow brought in all the things we think a modern MMORPG should have. And 10 million players.

 

WoW started selling cake. And there were 9 cake lovers for every person eating pie. This leads me to think there may only be 10% total for those that like pie AND those that like both pie and cake.

 

[edited to fix copious spelin miztaks and tpyos]

 

I like the post but some other things to keep in mind.

 

What percentsge of homes had computers in the in '97 when UO came out? Add to that most were on dial-up, which brought a myriad of problems back then as well.

 

I remember talking to some friends back then as well, telling them about UO, and they thought i was nuts for paying 9.99 a month to play a game, plus internet fees.

 

I always thought WoW was a good game, that was launched during a perfect storm of a great many things, that really helped propel the game to what hadn't been seen before, or since, and more power to them.

 

I also think there is a decent sized part of the MMO community that is getting tired of this cake, and its growing and a bit more than 10%. Specualtion only of course

 

Nice write-up though

Edited February 14, 2012 by Tic-

[Dominoris]

Thanks.

 

 

And we all know that 78.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

 

Still ... kudos to OP. It is certianly something a good baker needs to think about.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Dominoris

[Zlashie]

Thanks.

 

 

And we all know that 78.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

 

Still ... kudos to OP. It is certianly something a good baker needs to think about.

 

The statistics in my thread are 100% made up. Im using the 33.33% as a figure of speech because 1/3 of a group is 33.33% Why 1/3? Because I split MMO gamers into 3 groups.

 

Thanks

[uziforyou]

The thing is that "community"-oriented MMOs are a thing of the past. MMOs today are mass market games, and, as such, are primarily about the gaming experience of most players, which is shortish gaming sessions based on limited play time. This is the majority of the market -- much bigger than the "community" oriented players who are more old school. What happened was that the MMO market became much bigger, became mainstream, and basically swamped the old school MMO players in size, and so the games began to be designed to cater to the larger market. That's not going to change, really.

 

Very well said and right on the money. It's amazing how many people in these forums don't understand this. You mostly see it in the 'this is a single player game masked as an MOO' crowd. They especially don't get that's what's described above. SWTOR is designed for this market and a smart move on Bioware/Activision's part.

Edited February 14, 2012 by uziforyou

[Dominoris]

The cake is a lie!

 

 

 

 

(Sorry couldn't resist)

 

Cake is a lie

There is only pie

Through pie I gain sweets

Through sweets I gain weight

Through weight I gain girth

Through girth my belts are broken

The Flavor shall set me free

[Zlashie]

Oh hell yes. There were 10 million people that had plaed EQ all together and everyone was just waiting for something new. Better did not matter that much, just something that was working and at least halfway engaging to play.

We are at the next "Right Time" now and while I dearly love this game, I don't think it is quite where it needs to be. Yet. And this path towards a "Call of Duty with a single player speedbump start" is not the wisest choice of directions, in my opinion, if you want the longevity (and ROCI) the genre can produce.

 

If you follow the history books, the course of other games (Such as SWG), the expanding internet, the evolution of gaming and other factors you would see that the reason why WoW become massive was just coincidence. Heck, if you read/view interviews from Blizzard Devs themselves they state that "they never imagine WoW to become so big". Its the amazing thing about the global world and the internet. things happens randomly. Its the same reason why some "jokes" just becomes world famous in the internet. visit knowyourmeme.com and you will find tons of random memes that has nothing to do with anything who just burst up and became "mainstream". The internet is no longer a place only for nerds. and its the same with gaming.

 

My example with call of duty was just a thought of exploring "new" different styles. Did you know that in the music genre some of the artists in the world became world famous for mixing two genres? if you asked a DJ during the late 90s what he thought about mixing House music and Trance Music he would say "hell no, those are two seperate things", yet right now a man with the artist name Deadmau5 is earning the big money because he combined Trance and House. Its just an example. Do I want a Call of Duty featured MMORPG? No Definitly no. Why did I bring it up? Because as I wrote in the thread, I can play the same damn map with the same damn weapons without beocmming bored, yet running the same Flashpoint more than 5 times kills my interest instantly. Thats something a dev should definitly looking into because that will help towards longevity

 

-Z

[Zlashie]

cake is a lie

there is only pie

through pie i gain sweets

through sweets i gain weight

through weight i gain girth

through girth my belts are broken

the flavor shall set me free

 

Rofl! :D

Edited February 14, 2012 by Zlashie

[DalrisThane]

Deleted. No point. Everyone is TLDR these days. +See Sig. Edited March 31, 2013 by DalrisThane

[SamuraBob_Fl]

For me the "Pie" Is simply:

 

- Fun Stuff: Social things to do, focus on the enjoyment of things not on "various ways to keep playing". Funny thing is most people will actually play actively if its fun. I dont know where these gaming guys got the idea that without gear grind people will auto-flee away from games.

 

 

I'd like to nail you down on this one if I can, because I agree philosophically, but I don't really see a solid way of implementing it. Could you elaborate?

[Vasilas]

Agreed 100% on everything OP said. Bioware had a chance and they blew it for easy money.

 

If they make something different of this game me and my friends will get back to it. Until then enjoy your cash machine Bioware.

[Calsidian]

Bioware has, and will continue to play it safe. Hate to say it, but realistic expectations are the way to go. Expect no wheels to be reinvented here. Edited February 14, 2012 by Calsidian

[Lokai]

meh while tor does story well enough saddly just failed everywhere else i LOVED story in game and I LOVED cinematic feel of game as i progressed. However everything else felt like i'd done it before...OH because i have... it was called WoW and i quite do to hating that game so badly.

 

Thankfully Tera seems to at least be trying to innovate so i'm going to give them my money =3

[Racheakt]

SWToR is the run of the mill gear/raid game, why expect it to break out of the mold of the Genre?

 

Nice long winded way to rehash a couple of different topics : Resilience and xLFD

 

A Resilience like stat is needed in a game where you have PvP as a progression element; Raiders mush have the best gear. But best gear means that they would roll dedicated PvPers in quest gear. You cannot give PvPers the same gear as raiders as you demish their returns. You cannot just "make everyone wear the same generic PvP" while in pvp for the same reason you do not make Raiders were "Generic Raid gear" -- it violates the concept of progression.

 

If PvP and Raid result in same gear, the whine will be deafening.

If Raid gear > PvP gear, Raiders roll PvP with no skill.

If PvP gear > Raid gear, Everyone PvPs and raiding dies.

 

The xLFD has been beat like sith's slave -- no need to rehash the merry-go-round other than to say it is expected in a thempark, you queue up to get on the rides.

[Zlashie]

I'd like to nail you down on this one if I can, because I agree philosophically, but I don't really see a solid way of implementing it. Could you elaborate?

 

In my thread I pointed out that, When I used to play call of duty I could play the same damn map with the same damn weapons over and over for hours without being bored vs the Flashpoints which currently bore me after 4-5th time.

 

You see it everywhere. People who play Leauge of Legends. There is no "gain". They dont get better geared by playing. os whats the catch? "Entertainment"

 

The funny thing, I think this is a psychological thing. Nothing else.

 

Here is a fact about me. I loved pvp during Vanilla wow. yes it had its flaws. Did I fight for rank 14? not at all. Did I foght for better gear? Not at all. All I cared about was killing people and having fun.

 

When Resillience came, this battleground was changed. The majority of people stopped caring about the battleground itself but focused on the reward. As a figure of speaking they forgot the journey for the aske of the destination.

 

Bioware did something amazing with leveling. they reversed the idea of leveling being a marathon to reach the destination and said "We have VO and Story to make you enjoy the journey itself". This was brilliant. Me personally? I ahve rushed every god damn expansion in wow, but in this game I took a deep breath and enjoyed the journey.

 

All Bioware needs to do is change the end game content as well. Remove the idea of everything being a marathon for the best pixels and make it an enjoyable journey.

 

Funny enough I bet you 1million credits that if Bioware removed the daily and weekly quests for warzones people would automaticly do more warzones. Its just because the daily states that you need to win 3 that makes people do just that.

[Zlashie]

SWToR is the run of the mill gear/raid game, why expect it to break out of the mold of the Genre?

 

Nice long winded way to rehash a couple of different topics : Resilience and xLFD

 

A Resilience like stat is needed in a game where you have PvP as a progression element; Raiders mush have the best gear. But best gear means that they would roll dedicated PvPers in quest gear. You cannot give PvPers the same gear as raiders as you demish their returns. You cannot just "make everyone wear the same generic PvP" while in pvp for the same reason you do not make Raiders were "Generic Raid gear" -- it violates the concept of progression.

 

If PvP and Raid result in same gear, the whine will be deafening.

If Raid gear > PvP gear, Raiders roll PvP with no skill.

If PvP gear > Raid gear, Everyone PvPs and raiding dies.

 

The xLFD has been beat like sith's slave -- no need to rehash the merry-go-round other than to say it is expected in a thempark, you queue up to get on the rides.

 

Actually resillience was added by Blizzard as a "bandage" because they failed to progress pvE accordingly with PvP.

 

What happened?

 

They just added more health to all the bosses and more damage to the dpsers.

Finally by the end of Vanilla people could 3shot eachother.

 

Their long and "best" fix would have been to change the entire system, however they went for the easy fix which is called Resillience.

 

Now why Bioware choose to use this bandage is a big question and a huge mystery to me. But no reason to discuss that here, Back to topic!

[Jederix]

Except for the choices when recieving quests, there is absolutely nothing unique about SWTOR. Zip.

 

What can be said about SWTOR is that it is retro. As in, it's the type of game one would have experienced 8 to 10 years ago.

 

So saying "SWTOR should stand on it's own feet" is completely idiotic, since it's in fact standing on outdated features and concepts that mmo gamers have evolved past.

 

And yet, all most can do is cite even more outdated features and concepts (those from UO, EQ, DAoC, etc) that the game should be more like and use more.

 

WoW evolved past those outdated premises in 2004 and set a standard that you, apparently, do not like. Let's be serious for a moment and realize that you are considering SW:TOR as "Outdated" yet want to go back to even more outdated systems. Doesn't seem logical to me.