Living, breathing world....

[Kubernetic]

SWTOR design is not easily fixed. engine concepts and philosphies about what gamers want. all those things combined make up SWTOR's fundemental design. Its not easily corrected. if you looka how hard of atime they are having just getting high res textures into game is telling the story of their game engine and design choices. Games released in 2004 have better textures and all the Dynamic world effects. Bioware made a dieliberate decision to leave these things out and concentrate on doing what they know ow to do, and picked an engine friendly to their strengths. the things that will make TOR feel aive will never happen, dynamic weather, day and night cycles, dynamic NPC's dynamic content. it will not happen in TOR the story 4th pillar is bioware focus and its central support the other 3 pillars are extremly weak by design that will not change it would take them rewritting the base hero engine they have devolped on and we all know that aint gonna happen.Enjoy TOr for what it is a great single player game with a plethora of multiplayer features. The market is going to go nuculear over the next 5 years with the big budget MMO's in production ,and the few good ones that have survived the storm will get better as well.

 

If you could, can you list your overall experience with the Hero Engine as it has been modified by BioWare and back up some of this idle speculation with real facts?

 

What exactly will prevent them from implementing a dynamic weather system or day and night cycles, for instance?

 

Please be specific.

[Trend]

This post, like many others, addresses some big problems with the game. It's difficult to remember much of the leveling proces, simply because, in my opinion, this game doesn't trigger a lot of emotions.

 

The game itself is too easy to level up solo, and fails to 'prey' on the feeling of achievement. If the game had lots of properly incentivized group content, you could combine a sense of achievement with social interaction. Strong bonds are forged when obstacles are overcome in a group, but SWTOR hardly brings people together in this fashion. Neither flash points (nor heroics) are necessary for substantial gear progression, and the aforementioned exist in their own separate vacuum, which means they have no connection to the world. World quests should - at least sometimes - culminate in flash points, instead of being the result of a random "holocall of heroism" from the guy or gal upstairs.

 

They messed up the loot too, big time. I honestly can't find a single item I really desire in the current databases. The items feels disconnected from the flash points. If I go to Athiss, I want to be able to find an item that belonged to a person of note with relevant ties to this specific place. Basically, if you enter a pirate stronghold, you wanna find cool stuff that it would make sense for pirates to possess. And don't get me started on item aesthetics...good lord... O_o

 

Loot has been heavily trivialized, since prototypes and artifacts are available to everyone and their brother from the get go. In the-game-that-shant-be-mentioned, an epic item was just that, freaking epic. It's bad enough that items seem void of any soul, being mere stat upgrades, but to make matters worse, they decided to make loot tiers completely pointless. As such, they don't motivate as much as they should.

 

What we're left with, is a game that makes grouping redundant, and fails to properly cater to those who chase after the rare and the exotic in order to feel a sense of accomplishment and uniqueness. Mix that with linear, corridor-like worlds, that you're basically punished for trying to explore, and you end up with a monotonous gaming experience which has serious longevity issues.

 

Pretty depressing for those of us who followed this game for years, hoping for a thrilling experience that left you wanting for more, not considering unsubbing with the game barely past the two month mark.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Trend

[Drannor]

As a level 75 minstrel I can assure You that this game is wonderful.

 

Music instruments, weekly events at Prancing Pony, great housing, outfitting... oh wait, wrong forums, MMORPG this way ---->

 

I've been playing SWTOR since 13th of december (I'm an altaholic - level 50, 44, 29, 27, 27, 22, 20 so far) and for me this game looks like an unfinished product. BW guys only had time to put buildings and quest npcs and that's it;)

 

I'd like to see:

- day/night cycle (unlikely)

- weather (wall of crazy 2013)

- real water (not going to happen)

- continuous music play option (could happen)

- hobbies (wall of crazy 2015)

- more random npc chat (could happen)

- reason to stay on Alderaan, Korriban, Voss, whatever (unlikely)

- real crafting (Quite funny, swtor crafting advertised as revolutionary - you dont have to craft items on your own, just press one button and poooof it's ready. Real RPG!)

[Vharna]

The only way to fix it is with new planets designed differently. Larger more wide open spaces. Room to explore. More sandbox elements are an absolute must. In-depth crafting. Player housing on planets and non instanced. More in-depth harvesting.

 

The only thing that will save this game is D-E-P-T-H.

 

Also, it just seems that nothing you do in the SWTOR world really matters.

BW's almost doctrinal stance on the solo story design is a mistake. Their stance on solo gameplay as a whole, in an MMO, is a mistake.

 

SWTOR's group content is INCONSEQUENTIAL. If I did 5 fp's total, that would be a lot. There is no need to do them. You do not need to do them to advance in any way. I made it to 50 on one toon and 20 on another in 30 days without them. You say I missed out on great gear??? Really and with what consequence? NONE! And I was constantly ahead of the leveling curve right up to Corellia which is 47-49.

 

The group content is fun that being FP's and Op's but it's old and tired and in the end doesn't matter as everyone will get good enough gear or better gear without trying so there is no point to it.

 

People on the forums tell you do the FP's, OP's, crafting and such but none of it really matters in the end. Crafting : you will loot better gear while PvPing or running regular quests , fps or ops, so no point. Gear is easy to get so everyone will have it so again no point to ops or fp.

At end game the game really becomes pointless especially on Ilum as Republic.

 

That's one of the biggest things I come away with is that the game is too easy, too much good gear drops for nothing, no one needs you and you need no one. No middle game content that would make someone slow down. No real Epic questing going on. It's just more like doing assignments. You will get everything you want guaranteed. No risk whatsoever. It's epically boring.

 

It's the state of MMO's today I guess. Kind of sad actually.

 

Sad but true.

 

I still enjoy the game and I'm here for another three months but it is looking quiet bad. Every time I even try and explore I get smacked over the head and basically told there is no exploration, go back and follow the straight line. This game could have really had the best from both worlds. The main class quest could have taken you along the guided path and for the most part kept your at an appropriate level. Side quest and heroics would involve more exploration the co-operation.

[Jett-Rinn]

To anyone who complains about sound ambient noise all I have to say is put on a set of quality headphones; you will be surprised....also there is a issue with some on-board sound cards and it should be addressed in the next patch.

[Azumio]

I doubt SWTOR will ever feel like that.

 

It's one of the main-reasons I probably won't be around after my Sub is up (Six Months)

 

I'll give it the 6-months because I want to stick it out in an MMORPG longer than 2 weeks for once, but right now I have two major gripes that aren't fixable:

 

Dead, lifeless worlds.

Game feels empty even on a high-pop server.

 

These are major design blunders, and I'm not sure how fixable (If at all) they are.

 

I probably won't quit for TERA though. Had my fill of Korean MMO's. I'll probably try GW2/Secret World/Blade and Soul (I know, Korean..) to see if anything sticks.

 

GW2 has the biggest potential to pull me right in.

[SnoggyMack]

Good threads rise on their own, by virtue of being something people care about.

 

Not true. The way forums function, the most flame-filled argument threads stay at the top. Because everyone keeps replying and arguing in them.

 

Those aren't good, informative threads.

[Jswizzle]

Gosh so much misinformation floating around.

 

Crafting is useless? LOL tell that to my rakata crafted. Sorry PVP gear is not better. I'm not going to lose 40 willpower for some expertise.

[Darth_Urtani]

I kind of agree, the cities feel empty. But I find the wilderness to be more lively.

But in my opinion, the biggest reason it's so dead is the lack of players, when I play there are maybe 40 people on a planet, I might see two or three of them while I play. This is on one of the most populated servers...

[Dyroi-Thader]

I'm not 100% sure i agree with the OP on the game out-right lacking ambience, but then again i have some really high quality headphones and notice alot of ambient speeders, npc's having conversations

 

However after playing LOTRO,SWG,EQ2,EQ,UO (in reverse order) this game does lack alot in ambience and general logic. I know its a fictional setting as all mmo's are but in the developement they even stated they wanted it to feel real...Hard to feel real when it's noon 24/7 and always sunny or cloudy depending on the planet.

 

Short Term updates needed

 

Dynamic weather

Day/Night cycle

 

Long Term:

 

More chatter,ambient noises

dynamic effects based on weather i.e dust from wind, water puddles from heavy rain ect.

 

This is completely excluding character ambience i dont believe its the same catagory, possibly social or customization but not ambience.

[Waypoc]

This post, like many others, addresses some big problems with the game. It's difficult to remember much of the leveling proces, simply because, in my opinion, this game doesn't trigger a lot of emotions.

 

The game itself is too easy to level up solo, and fails to 'prey' on the feeling of achievement. If the game had lots of properly incentivized group content, you could combine a sense of achievement with social interaction. Strong bonds are forged when obstacles are overcome in a group, but SWTOR hardly brings people together in this fashion. Neither flash points (nor heroics) are necessary for substantial gear progression, and the aforementioned exist in their own separate vacuum, which means they have no connection to the world. World quests should - at least sometimes - culminate in flash points, instead of being the result of a random "holocall of heroism" from the guy or gal upstairs.

 

They messed up the loot too, big time. I honestly can't find a single item I really desire in the current databases. The items feels disconnected from the flash points. If I go to Athiss, I want to be able to find an item that belonged to a person of note with relevant ties to this specific place. Basically, if you enter a pirate stronghold, you wanna find cool stuff that it would make sense for pirates to possess. And don't get me started on item aesthetics...good lord... O_o

 

Loot has been heavily trivialized, since prototypes and artifacts are available to everyone and their brother from the get go. In the-game-that-shant-be-mentioned, an epic item was just that, freaking epic. It's bad enough that items seem void of any soul, being mere stat upgrades, but to make matters worse, they decided to make loot tiers completely pointless. As such, they don't motivate as much as they should.

 

What we're left with, is a game that makes grouping redundant, and fails to properly cater to those who chase after the rare and the exotic in order to feel a sense of accomplishment and uniqueness. Mix that with linear, corridor-like worlds, that you're basically punished for trying to explore, and you end up with a monotonous gaming experience which has serious longevity issues.

 

Pretty depressing for those of us who followed this game for years, hoping for a thrilling experience that left you wanting for more, not considering unsubbing with the game barely past the two month mark.

 

well said.

[skepticck]

I agree with the OP 100%. The environments are beautifully designed but there is soul missing in them. I always get nostalgia When in elwyn forest, west fall or storm wind. Here... It's lifeless, boring and just plain bad. No ambient sounds or light music.. Just footsteps / speeder sound.

 

At first I didn't mind it... But when you go to any other mmo you begin to realise just how much it immerses you into the game.

 

I don't come from WOW but from other MMO's and i have to agree with this, "without soul" i think pretty much describes it.

 

Its still a lot fun to play (for me anyways) but it does feel "lifeless" in most parts.

[wifeaggro]

If you could, can you list your overall experience with the Hero Engine as it has been modified by BioWare and back up some of this idle speculation with real facts?

 

What exactly will prevent them from implementing a dynamic weather system or day and night cycles, for instance?

 

Please be specific.

 

I have Zero expierence with the hero engine. Ive only the things that Bioware themselves have said they can and cannot do with the engine and their design concepts. They cannot or will not ever add dynamic weather or day and night cycles. they have already stated it on several occasions. the obvious fact that they are having trouble just getting high res textures to work for the game speaks volumes about the reworked hero engine they have coded.

 

As for my expierence with it i can only comment on my game time. After playing TOR and then playing a MMO devolped in 2008 on half the budget, that has DX 10 options high res pacs ,and more graphic options then a single player game.handles 64 person siege battles with destructable enviroments with minimal FPS stuttering at 70 frames consitent. compared to standing still on the fleet with 20 people surrounding me doing nothing in a completely static enviroment and getting 20 frames i can say that biowares engine is underwheling and my expierence with their engine is negative.

 

And before you nerd speak on me and claim it is my system it is not

 

intel i 7 990x OC'd to 4.2 ghz liquid colled

Gforce 590gtx 3 gig Video card driver 285.62

8 gigs of ram corsair 1333

win 7 x64 ultimate.

10,000 RPM Raptor

internet speed Fios 4.5 up and down

 

With that said Bioware did some really cool things with their game, but most of them revolve around single player expierence. They are a great Devolper but they should have not gotten into the MMO market with out some big guns in the MMO devolpment field directiong and leading their teams. the inexpierence shows point blank , their concepts were short sighted.

[Aisar]

cool story bro.

 

 

i personalyl liek the fully voiced over npc chatter at different quest hubs and in towns. i like how the fleet has alot of people just hanging out. i like how different quest hubs even when i go back to run lowbie guildies through or play my alt has random players running around takign quests at them. i like running into random players on random questing areas. i like how the critters in this game vary in shape size and form, from epic beast to humanoid refugees and other area appropriate npc types. i like how there's plenty of mobs patrolling.

 

i enjkoy how the music isn't overwhelming and doesn't play nonstop out side of cantinas.

 

lolololol you are running around a dead game and yet every time you hear one of those little buggy NPC convos go off your heart soars. This game is by far the worst as far as feeling dead and lifeless. Probably just poor skills of the designer(s), or maybe it was rushed, or intentional. Not sure.

[wifeaggro]

This post, like many others, addresses some big problems with the game. It's difficult to remember much of the leveling proces, simply because, in my opinion, this game doesn't trigger a lot of emotions.

 

The game itself is too easy to level up solo, and fails to 'prey' on the feeling of achievement. If the game had lots of properly incentivized group content, you could combine a sense of achievement with social interaction. Strong bonds are forged when obstacles are overcome in a group, but SWTOR hardly brings people together in this fashion. Neither flash points (nor heroics) are necessary for substantial gear progression, and the aforementioned exist in their own separate vacuum, which means they have no connection to the world. World quests should - at least sometimes - culminate in flash points, instead of being the result of a random "holocall of heroism" from the guy or gal upstairs.

 

They messed up the loot too, big time. I honestly can't find a single item I really desire in the current databases. The items feels disconnected from the flash points. If I go to Athiss, I want to be able to find an item that belonged to a person of note with relevant ties to this specific place. Basically, if you enter a pirate stronghold, you wanna find cool stuff that it would make sense for pirates to possess. And don't get me started on item aesthetics...good lord... O_o

 

Loot has been heavily trivialized, since prototypes and artifacts are available to everyone and their brother from the get go. In the-game-that-shant-be-mentioned, an epic item was just that, freaking epic. It's bad enough that items seem void of any soul, being mere stat upgrades, but to make matters worse, they decided to make loot tiers completely pointless. As such, they don't motivate as much as they should.

 

What we're left with, is a game that makes grouping redundant, and fails to properly cater to those who chase after the rare and the exotic in order to feel a sense of accomplishment and uniqueness. Mix that with linear, corridor-like worlds, that you're basically punished for trying to explore, and you end up with a monotonous gaming experience which has serious longevity issues.

 

Pretty depressing for those of us who followed this game for years, hoping for a thrilling experience that left you wanting for more, not considering unsubbing with the game barely past the two month mark.

 

Ya its an uncomfortable posistion as a fan of Bioware, a fan of the MMO genre and borderline obsessive with following this game. for 18 months prior to TOR's release i was on the forums every day. Listened to three different Fan site Pod casts. Followed every rumor thread or blog just to glean info.watched every game video to glean info from speculation. As you can see from my join date i had followed the game from its announcement.

 

When i was invited to beta 2 it was amazing. I cannot say i was overly impressed with TOR from my beta expierence but i would only alow myself to get to lvl 20 then reroll to a different class at which time the cycle was usally over.

 

I can say the story was completely enjoyable. but i noticed serious design decsions that solidfied the game would not hold long term apeal for me, unless the endgame was a rock solid content packed expierence. the static world withe corridor driven planets made me feel like i was playing a larger scale DA. I over looked it trying to convince myself that it would open up on the later planets. And the lack of life in the enviroments was due to it being beta and the animations and ambience would be better at launch.

 

All in all SWTOR is not a true MMO. its a massive single player game with multiplayer options and a social hub to dispatch from.The lack of social features is astounding espically in the guild department, which is mind blowing consider the pre launch ramp up they spun with pre deployment.Though it sounds horrible ill stick with Companies like Blizzard and (cough) even sony (i know the flame ill get for that last one) But both of those companies have created game worlds and mechanics that stand the test of time. Id love to see Trion get 120 million and a large IP to work with and see what they could create.But this was my Very last BW purchase. I might buy ME3 when it goes on sale if EA allows steam to have it.

Edited February 12, 2012 by wifeaggro

[Arnokar]

Meh, I've seen way worse...Rift anyone?

 

But it could be better.

[DigitalDreamz]

I have Zero expierence with the hero engine. Ive only the things that Bioware themselves have said they can and cannot do with the engine and their design concepts. They cannot or will not ever add dynamic weather or day and night cycles. they have already stated it on several occasions. the obvious fact that they are having trouble just getting high res textures to work for the game speaks volumes about the reworked hero engine they have coded.

 

As for my expierence with it i can only comment on my game time. After playing TOR and then playing a MMO devolped in 2008 on half the budget, that has DX 10 options high res pacs ,and more graphic options then a single player game.handles 64 person siege battles with destructable enviroments with minimal FPS stuttering at 70 frames consitent. compared to standing still on the fleet with 20 people surrounding me doing nothing in a completely static enviroment and getting 20 frames i can say that biowares engine is underwheling and my expierence with their engine is negative.

 

And before you nerd speak on me and claim it is my system it is not

 

intel i 7 990x OC'd to 4.2 ghz liquid colled

Gforce 590gtx 3 gig Video card driver 285.62

8 gigs of ram corsair 1333

win 7 x64 ultimate.

10,000 RPM Raptor

internet speed Fios 4.5 up and down

 

With that said Bioware did some really cool things with their game, but most of them revolve around single player expierence. They are a great Devolper but they should have not gotten into the MMO market with out some big guns in the MMO devolpment field directiong and leading their teams. the inexpierence shows point blank , their concepts were short sighted.

 

Very well put! +1

[Waypoc]

Ya its an uncomfortable posistion as a fan of Bioware, a fan of the MMO genre and borderline obsessive with following this game. for 18 months prior to TOR's release i was on the forums every day. Listened to three different Fan site Pod casts. Followed every rumor thread or blog just to glean info.watched every game video to glean info from speculation. As you can see from my join date i had followed the game from its announcement.

 

Same here except I was subscribed to all of the tor podcasts.

 

I have since unsubscribed from them and canceled my sub here.

 

I found myself pretending to like the game.

[wifeaggro]

Very well put! +1

 

thank you i usally enter these forums in a shark cage. Ive been outspoken about issues since November 2008. say la vie i did not like TOR's totall game expierence oh well there are those that do but im uessing the MMO veteran will feel uncomfotable with TOR for a long term game.

[wifeaggro]

Meh, I've seen way worse...Rift anyone?

 

But it could be better.

 

See i found rifts game desgin and end game far far better then TOR, The leveling expierence and story was no where near TOR's , but enviromnetly , presentation and innovation with its class system and rift events. It was way above TOR, espically in visuals and options.

Edited February 12, 2012 by wifeaggro

[Arnokar]

See i found rifts game desgin and end game far far better then TOR, The leveling expierence and story was no where near TOR's , but enviromnetly , presentation and innovation with its class system and rift events. It was way above TOR, espically in visuals and options.

Oh I didn't say swtor was a better game than rift, just that I found the environment way sparser than swtors.

[Trend]

I found myself pretending to like the game.

 

Exactly. For the past few weeks I tried to work out why I didn't feel like logging in, why the game felt like a chore. I tried to convince myself, that I was overlooking the things that worked, and that the game had potential, which Bioware could and would realize within a relatively short time frame. I tried forcing myself to engage with every quest I took, paying attention to the details of the world and my character.

 

Then I realized, that if this game did what it was supposed to, I would never have to do this consciously. It's like watching a show with underdeveloped characters and a thin, confused plot line, that you *want* to like because it's based on some book series that you really care for. You're just deluding yourself.

 

To the other poster above, I agree. Bioware has given us such amazing experiences in other games. I cannot even begin to describe the feelings a game like Baldurs Gate:SOA managed to stir in me, even just thinking about it now brings back so many vivid memories. In two years time, I doubt I'll even remember the details of my main characters plot line, and this was the strongest emotional experience this game managed to provide in my opinion. Maybe they're over the hill as a company, I don't know. Dragon Age had great moments too, but felt so flat towards the end. I never even played the sequel, because it seemed weak based on reviews and what not. Mass Effect had AMAZING potential as a universe. By the time I was done with the Citadel I thought I was in for the ride of a lifetime. Then before I blinked, the game was over, apart from the ressource mining, worm killing and sterile bunker-like missions. Never picked up the sequel, though perhaps I should.

 

Heres hoping something else will come along that provides a more lasting experience. Keeping my fingers crossed for Diablo 3, and maybe some of the other MMO's set to release sometime soon.

[maxilo]

So I have always felt, since beta anyway, that the swtor world felt dead. Not just in the number of players but the environments. Lifeless cities. No ambient sound. Well played the Tera beta the last 24 hours straight and it confirms these feelings even more.

 

The cities feel so alive. Players are everywhere. Sounds of city life, crafting, players dueling in the dueling ring. I actually felt like part of an MMO WORLD. The list goes on and on. Yes it has flaws too (Korean) just makes me hope and some point Swtor will feel more alive.

 

NDA been lifted then ?

[DieselCheezel]

Bioware game cities always feel lifeless. Its been one of their noticeable weaknesses over the years.

[face_hindu]

Not signing. If you think the world is sterile you are seeing what you want. Every planet I go to there are npcs doing different things. I love hearing the random conversations

 

I KNOW RIGHT IT'S SO AWESOME I LOVE WATCHING THE NPCs!

 

Like on Tython when I first started playing it blew me away how awesome the NPCs are!

 

I mean, I know it's 2012, but I wasn't expecting even THIS level of polish!

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3Rrk6lgi24

 

 

/joke