People need to realize....

[Laranth]

billions and billions

 

No, good sir.

[Grabemx]

No.

 

Not just no, an emphatic no.

 

 

This is not 2004. This is 2012. This is a triple A release from a huge company where no expense was spared in making the game. Some of the missing features are inexcusable, and some of the bugs are ridiculous in nature (WZ's not giving victories for example)

 

I'm not going to give them a pass because "it was just released" and neither should you.

 

Ok.

 

A) Every game has a limit. There is no such thing as "free reign" and unlimited finances when it comes to development. EA, and Bioware have investors to answer to. So let's just end the charade that BW and EA have unlimited cash flow.

 

B) The game was just released is a valid point whether its 2004, 2012 or 3009. Go to point A. The game had to be released (Most likely ahead of schedule) due to investor pressure, so BW had to scrap some stuff to make release. Are all the bugs acceptable? No. If anything that BW may have failed on is lack of innovation. How they respond in future updates will be key. Me personally I am giving them 6 months from release to win me over, because frankly I had more realistic expectations then some people who frequent these forums

 

C)I don't think anyone is giving BW a "pass". Frankly their are arguements and huge exaggerations on both sides of the aisle. Like I said, I am giving them 6 months. What do I lose? 5 months of subs and cost of game? For me right now the game is fun, and I know it won't be like this forever. They are still changing stuff and have announced changes to sticking points like bad UI design, etc.

[Vydor_HC]

And I understand that, I can live with the current features but that is my own opinion as yours is your own as well.

 

-nods-

 

But in your OP, you are stressing to people that they just need to live with the game as it is because it's new and no MMO is good when it's new, and comparing it to older games is wrong. Hence the whole conversation here is about NOT living with one's own opinion.

[Mxconway]

If Mythic is designing the PVP, in my opinion, then it should be fine.

 

Mythic designed the best PVP I've ever had a chance to be a part of.

 

RvR in Dark Age of Camelot was PVP at its finest.

 

I heard this constantly on the WAR beta forums. No complaints were legit because Mythic made DAoC the best PVP game ever!

 

Not all of the DAoC guys are still with Mythic.

[Vydor_HC]

Whew. Glad you cleared that up, cuz I'm having a blast playing it, so it appears they nailed it. Does it have some issues? Yep. Will they get adderssed? Yep. Is it absolutely unadulteratedly childish to be throwing a hissy fit pantwetting tantrum over it when the game has only been out for a month and because such-and-such tinfoil hat rationalization leads you to the conclusion of DOOOM!!!! DDDOOOOOOOOOM!!!! DOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!????? Yep.

 

-nods-

 

Everyone has a level of incompetence they will tolerate in a new game, depending on how fun that game is compared to what they can get elsewhere. If the game exceeds that level, they will go other places. It really doesn't matter what the amount of content is or lack there of is. The OP is informing people to be patient and not compare this game to one currently on the market, and that suggestion is wrong. Folks make comparisons in the here and now, not what the game might be in the future.

[Whitesmokes]

Trion's first major MMO was called Rift and out of the box it came with essentially all of the bells and whistles of what we'd expect from MMOs today. Save for people complaining about class balance which every MMO will go through. SWTOR has issues with class balance on top of the myriad of legacy UI and missing features issues. First time in the market is not an excuse.

 

DING!! Winner! a big derp on BW's part. GG

[Frostvein]

Ok.

 

A) Every game has a limit. There is no such thing as "free reign" and unlimited finances when it comes to development. EA, and Bioware have investors to answer to. So let's just end the charade that BW and EA have unlimited cash flow.

 

B) The game was just released is a valid point whether its 2004, 2012 or 3009. Go to point A. The game had to be released (Most likely ahead of schedule) due to investor pressure, so BW had to scrap some stuff to make release. Are all the bugs acceptable? No. If anything that BW may have failed on is lack of innovation. How they respond in future updates will be key. Me personally I am giving them 6 months from release to win me over, because frankly I had more realistic expectations then some people who frequent these forums

 

C)I don't think anyone is giving BW a "pass". Frankly their are arguements and huge exaggerations on both sides of the aisle. Like I said, I am giving them 6 months. What do I lose? 5 months of subs and cost of game? For me right now the game is fun, and I know it won't be like this forever. They are still changing stuff and have announced changes to sticking points like bad UI design, etc.

 

A. I never said they have an unlimited budget. I said that they spent god knows how much and missed out on features that should have been in since launch which is inexcusable.

 

B. I'm not complaining about all bugs, or the fact that there are bugs in general. It happens and I am fine with it. Even ability delay (which was as far as I know not an issue before release) is something I'd give them a pass on. I am complaining about the ridiculous ones that were reported as being bugs in beta and still not fixed upon release. And no, not the little nit picky ones, either.

 

C. The problem I have with this concept is that you are asking people to spend their money on a product while it gets fixed. While that may not be a problem for you, some people don't agree with that.

 

I like the game, but I don't know if I like it enough to spend 15 bucks a month on it when there are several other games on the market that I'd like to try. This is a problem for a game two months out.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Frostvein

[Jirec]

It can only do a game better when there's more people playing it and giving out their opinions about it. Mistakes will happen along the way as they'll try out different things, but if they were to hold on to it and build upon for an other year or so, without all these people, it would still miss things. Now it'll be fixed even sooner.

 

Think like this it's still a "beta version" (because MMO's are like that anyhow), as it's constantly grows and will improve with time. Only because it doesn't have stuff that you're used to, lacking a few things you want, feeling laggy or what, that doesn't mean it will not be looked upon and fixed in a near future.

 

So, why not try to help building this game / "beta", with giving Bioware more constructive criticisms and just be patience, it'll do all of us good in the end. Bashing wont do anything good, try to see things on a more positive way, and that's not being blind. Love more, ignore the hate, see things you like more than what you hate. The ride has not really started yet!

[Knewt]

/sigh

 

This discussion again?

 

You can't compare WoW at launch to SWTOR at launch. The industry and consumer expectations are completely different. It would be like comparing Castle Wolfenstein or Doom to BF3 or MW3. The games industry has completely changed over the last 10 years. In particular, the MMO industry has matured and more is expected from MMOs at release.

 

A more apt comparison would be Rift or Aion. Both of those games were released in the current market.

[swordandstone]

-nods-

 

But in your OP, you are stressing to people that they just need to live with the game as it is because it's new and no MMO is good when it's new, and comparing it to older games is wrong. Hence the whole conversation here is about NOT living with one's own opinion.

 

No I was saying that people need to realize that when any MMO launches, there are going to be a lot of things people will like/dislike, when I said WoW was crap at launch I meant that compared to how it is now and how further updates/patches/expansions can dramatically change an MMO's gameplay.

[Vydor_HC]

No I was saying that people need to realize that when any MMO launches, there are going to be a lot of things people will like/dislike, when I said WoW was crap at launch I meant that compared to how it is now and how further updates/patches/expansions can dramatically change an MMO's gameplay.

 

Which leads us back into a circle, as people that play MMO's already know this, but they are not going to play a game that is overly buggy, and they will let the developer know of any deficiencies they find in order to make the game better.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Vydor_HC

[Tiam]

Trion's first major MMO was called Rift and out of the box it came with essentially all of the bells and whistles of what we'd expect from MMOs today. Save for people complaining about class balance which every MMO will go through. SWTOR has issues with class balance on top of the myriad of legacy UI and missing features issues. First time in the market is not an excuse.

 

I hate to say since I feel Rift is a WoW type of clone like SWTOR is, but Trion did very good with Rift. I can't count the numerous features Rift has over SWTOR. Heck I can even dye my armor in Rift so I don't look like everyone else completely.

 

BW, got lazy, and they're way too boastful about SWTOR. If they'd put in basic features that are standard to todays mmo's I'd been much happier with it. Instead they put those basic/standard features on what they call, "the wall of crazy". It should have been called, "Wall of stuff we cannot figure out how to code and put in the game yet". Completely unacceptable for an mmo of today.

[Phenyr]

TOR was just released. Of course it's not going to have the polish that WoW has, WoW was crap at launch but it got better over time after hundreds of updates and new expansions.

 

New MMOs never stand a chance because people are always like "Oh, well WoW had this and this game doesn't, blah blah blah." Yes, TOR may feel a bit rushed but developing and launching an MMO is always a gamble when there's a bigger competitor that has had time to hone their craft and player base. If you thought TOR was going to launch flawlessly, than you are a fool.

 

Though I doubt this has anything to do with it but this is Bioware's first time delving into the world of MMORPGs and I'm impressed but there is room for improvement like always, but then again most people that are down talking the game have obviously never had any patience or expected 10 million players in thriving servers all the time without any flaws.

 

 

People won't and never will. Is as simple as that. The journey is irrelevant now, only thing that matter is the destination. That's the order of things today.

[Frostvein]

People won't and never will. Is as simple as that. The journey is irrelevant now, only thing that matter is the destination. That's the order of things today.

 

The leveling Journey is very good. Top notch. Very few people have disputed that.

 

Its the endgame that needs work. Most of the features missing from the game are MMO standards - combat log, gear customization, UI changes, AH, etc. You can deal with the these being sub par during the leveling process - Gear comes to you every few levels, credits are easy to come by, the interface isn't amazing but its decent enough to level with, you get the point. In terms of keeping subs active? Those secondary features are needed.

 

Its been pointed out before, the single player version of this game is amazing. Its the MMO part that is lacking, and quite frankly its the MMO part of the game that is going to keep subs.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Frostvein

[Matte_Black]

If they'd put in basic features that are standard to todays mmo's I'd been much happier with it. Instead they put those basic/standard features on what they call, "the wall of crazy". It should have been called, "Wall of stuff we cannot figure out how to code and put in the game yet". Completely unacceptable for an mmo of today.

 

I think alot of those features you are referring to, taken as a group, tend to cater to a certain style of play that BioWare is hesitant to sign off on. They have focused more on the levelling experience as the meat of the content and driving players to truly socialize where as many established gamers view the levelling experience as an obstacle to endgame play and expect to be lumped into random groups for all content. It seems like for every WoW refugee complaining about "missing" features there is a new-to-MMO or returning gamer feeling like BioWare has it spot on. I think BioWare chose to omit alot more of those features than they could not figure out.

[JeremyDale]

TOR was just released. Of course it's not going to have the polish that WoW has, WoW was crap at launch but it got better over time after hundreds of updates and new expansions.

 

New MMOs never stand a chance because people are always like "Oh, well WoW had this and this game doesn't, blah blah blah." Yes, TOR may feel a bit rushed but developing and launching an MMO is always a gamble when there's a bigger competitor that has had time to hone their craft and player base. If you thought TOR was going to launch flawlessly, than you are a fool.

 

Though I doubt this has anything to do with it but this is Bioware's first time delving into the world of MMORPGs and I'm impressed but there is room for improvement like always, but then again most people that are down talking the game have obviously never had any patience or expected 10 million players in thriving servers all the time without any flaws.

 

You're wrong Swordandstone. And stop making excuses for Bioware.

 

And this is why you are WRONG:

 

Yes, of course you can't expect a game that just released to have the amount of content a game that has been out for 5 years + to have. No one is saying this game should have as many dungeons and areas as WoW does. No One.

 

But that doesnt' mean a game can't be released with enough endgame content to keep players busy. There is no excuse for a game with this kind of budget and development time to not have a more in-depth endgame. That is just content on one level afterall - and there is absolutely no excuse for it - and a game doens't need to be on the market for half a decade to have this. I don''t care how often you point to other games in the past or at launch, it doesn't matter. This game has an incredibly shallow endgame, and that could have easily been resolved before release if they had made it a priority.

 

If anything is going "blah blah blah" it's this post of your's.

 

Also - stop trying to compare this game to games of 5, 10 years ago. To be honest just the fact so many people are having to do this PROVES this game needs some serious work. If it can't compete with the market as it exists NOW TODAY then it had no businesses being released yet. Period.

 

And no MMORPG I have ever played at launch was I able to get to max level and run out of things to do all in the span of a month. When FFXi was released, you would have had to murder yourself to reach max level in a month. When LOTRO was relased, no way in hell you was going to down Mordirith in the span of a month. Even when WoW was first released, I am told the leveling was much slower and it would have been very difficult to reach endgame in the span of a month.

 

Stop this false debate.

Edited February 10, 2012 by JeremyDale

[Azumio]

Ugh.

 

This game was done by Mythic (Warhammer, DAoC) hardly a first time MMORPG. EA tried to hide them under the Bioware flagship name.

 

You can't hide fail, though!

[Emeda]

I think alot of those features you are referring to, taken as a group, tend to cater to a certain style of play that BioWare is hesitant to sign off on. They have focused more on the levelling experience as the meat of the content and driving players to truly socialize where as many established gamers view the levelling experience as an obstacle to endgame play and expect to be lumped into random groups for all content. It seems like for every WoW refugee complaining about "missing" features there is a new-to-MMO or returning gamer feeling like BioWare has it spot on. I think BioWare chose to omit alot more of those features than they could not figure out.

 

Having an MMO that is 99% based on leveling does not have a long life span. Especially when it takes no time at all to level

 

1-10 takes about 2-4 hours. So 20% of the game is over in 2 hours. Yeah a MMO based on leveling only is failure.

[Evil_Kabbage]

No one asked for a perfect launch. You are misinterpreting the complaints.

 

combat logs

a functional AH

macros

UI customization

 

THESE are things that have been in all MMO's since ever and the fact that they are either non existent at release or poorly implemented is what is driving people away. Bioware dropped the ball on the basics.

Personally, these are the things that eventually led me away from WoW and what I find refreshing right now on SWTOR. I felt more like one of Pavlovs dogs reacting to all the bells and whistles rather than actually playing. It seemed more like a job rather than entertainment.

 

As for being a part of MMOs forever, I will use the info on Curse to refute this. If you have info to the contrary, feel free to post what you have and I'll concede; but I see:

deadly boss mods created Apr 29, 2008

recount created 17 Aug, 2007

Omen created 9 Sept 2007

Healbot created 29 Aug 2006

 

Those were the mods I had to have raid and I had to update them everytime WoW released a patch. I can't remember any issues clearing content prior to their existence. But, God, no one could do anything without them after their conception.

 

Oh, and hooray for gearscore in 2009. The rabid epeening mentality that took over after that one was the straw that broke the camels back. I know people can be real idiots on the internet, but that addon took it to unprecedented levels.

 

If these things make it into the game, so be it. It's a personal choice to use them. What I do want to see first is the fixing of game play issues with what we have now. I still find the game very playable and enjoyable, but I am afflicted by the occasional bug as well. Fix the basics, throw in the bells and whistles later. Seems like that happened to the current king that a lot of you like to compare this game to.

[iCanUseTheForce]

Why is it people don't think it's a COMPLETE game until it has ALL of the same features as WoW? Isn't the point that we're not playing WoW? "WoW has an armory and access to Gearscore addon and dual specs and TOR doesn't so it's incomplete!" uh...NO!

[jeepoverland]

To the OP...you're very correct. Early stages..the game has more to offer later.

 

However, I dont think much will change the fact that this is the easiest MMO int he history of MMOs. I dont think any class changes, content additions etc. will change that because it is the fundamental structure of the game, near instant gratification.

 

They took what WoW was doing and made it way worse. Over the years WoW has catered more towards the casuals, this game flat out gives gear away just for being there, queing enough times, etc.

 

If you like to challenge yourself on an elementary level, then this game is for you.

[Matte_Black]

Having an MMO that is 99% based on leveling does not have a long life span. Especially when it takes no time at all to level

 

1-10 takes about 2-4 hours. So 20% of the game is over in 2 hours. Yeah a MMO based on leveling only is failure.

 

I am not saying they have it right but, I think their take is that you'll level a couple characters for different roles(no dual speccing) and crafting alts(impossible to be fully skill independent) Their strength is story and the levelling process so they'd prefer to make that a larger focus of play.

 

I seriously have to question your percentages. This game is no where near 99% about levelling but, many players are coming at it with their focus mostly on an endgame not designed to play that large of a role. I'd also point out that the numerical level out of possible levels is a flawed way to measure the percentage of the total content.

[JeremyDale]

I am not saying they have it right but, I think their take is that you'll level a couple characters for different roles(no dual speccing) and crafting alts(impossible to be fully skill independent) Their strength is story and the levelling process so they'd prefer to make that a larger focus of play.

 

I seriously have to question your percentages. This game is no where near 99% about levelling but, many players are coming at it with their focus mostly on an endgame not designed to play that large of a role. I'd also point out that the numerical level out of possible levels is a flawed way to measure the percentage of the total content.

 

Ok, it's 98.9 % then about leveling. lol

 

To be honest that poster you were responding to has it exactly right, and outlined perfectly the weakness of this game. It emphasizes leveling up and story-telling, yet makes this process extremely fast-paced to where players find themselves level 50 before they know it and then end up bored to near death.

 

I can see people who love to reroll alts possibly being satisfied with this game, but that is the only crowd I can see this game appealing to right now.

[Pinguaq]

No. This is 8 years and many MMO's later. Industry starters get a break. I expect new ones developed these days to have learned a lesson or 2 from others. Or have they been hiding under a rock for the last decade? Edited February 10, 2012 by Pinguaq

[Rischie]

No.

 

Not just no, an emphatic no.

 

 

This is not 2004. This is 2012. This is a triple A release from a huge company where no expense was spared in making the game. Some of the missing features are inexcusable, and some of the bugs are ridiculous in nature (WZ's not giving victories for example)

 

I'm not going to give them a pass because "it was just released" and neither should you.

 

QFE

 

besides, ITS 2012 THE WOLD IS GOING TO END, THEY MAY NOT HAVE TIME TO GET MORE PATCHES!!!