sang Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) Seeing the patch notes like everyone else today, I was greatly concerned for operatives after reading them. I personally play a medicine spec'd operative and surge is a HUGE part of our game. It is arguably the one thing that makes us appealing as healers: to hit 7k+ single target heals and KP ticking for 1.3k+. I tried not overreacting to the patch notes without some definitive numbers, and fortunately the guys over at SithWarrior.com have already crunched out the updated Surge formula according to the 1.1.3 patch notes... it's not pretty. In fact, it's down right terrifying. Currently, a level 50 with a 250 surge rating has roughly 82% surge. Using the proposed changes in patch 1.1.3, the same level 50 with a 250 surge rating will have a 73% surge. Here is my spreadsheet for those who want to plug in their own surge rating and see what it will be if the proposed changes in 1.1.3 are pushed to the live servers: Patch 1.1.3 Surge Spreadsheet You don't need to be a math PhD to know surge is far weaker than before according the to the proposed 1.1.3 changes. Operatives, specifically healers as I can speak from experience, are going to see a MAJOR decrease in total healing output. I'm somewhat at a loss for words right now and the lack of developer response to the operative/scoundrel community is truly worrisome. Right now we can only hope for the best and continue to try to maximize our effectiveness through things like increase individual player skill; especially if this nerf to surge comes to the live servers. Edited February 10, 2012 by sang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nektulos Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 If these numbers go live tanks will literally take ***** on us as they dance around /loling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimra Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Hope for the best, plan for the worst. Roll your sorc now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sang Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 Hope for the best, plan for the worst. Roll your sorc now. Already started, he's level 33 right now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pairadox Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 If these numbers go live tanks will literally take ***** on us as they dance around /loling Tanks? Who are you kidding, healers will lol at us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sMooMs Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) Seeing the patch notes like everyone else today, I was greatly concerned for operatives after reading them. I personally play a medicine spec'd operative and surge is a HUGE part of our game. It is arguably the one thing that makes us appealing as healers: to hit 7k+ single target heals and KP ticking for 1.3k+. I tried not overreacting to the patch notes without some definitive numbers, and fortunately the guys over at SithWarrior.com have already crunched out the updated Surge formula according to the 1.1.3 patch notes... it's not pretty. In fact, it's down right terrifying. Currently, a level 50 with a 250 surge rating has roughly 82% surge. Using the proposed changes in patch 1.1.3, the same level 50 with a 250 surge rating will have a 73% surge. Here is my spreadsheet for those who want to plug in their own surge rating and see what it will be if the proposed changes in 1.1.3 are pushed to the live servers: Patch 1.1.3 Surge Spreadsheet You don't need to be a math PhD to know surge is far weaker than before according the to the proposed 1.1.3 changes. Operatives, specifically healers as I can speak from experience, are going to see a MAJOR decrease in total healing output. I'm somewhat at a loss for words right now and the lack of developer response to the operative/scoundrel community is truly worrisome. Right now we can only hope for the best and continue to try to maximize our effectiveness through things like increase individual player skill; especially if this nerf to surge comes to the live servers. this could be the straw that breaks the camels back, but we will see. so far all i see are melee dps nerfs, ops felt it the hardest, then assassins and maras felt it a bit lets see how this change compounds with the rest of the nerfs, from the way it looks to me they are trying to make melee weaker then ranged which dosent make sense to me but then again it makes Cents for them..................... Edited February 10, 2012 by sMooMs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhinzual Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 this could be the straw that breaks the camels back, but we will see. so far all i see are melee dps nerfs, ops felt it the hardest, then assassins and maras felt it a bit lets see how this change compounds with the rest of the nerfs, from the way it looks to me they are trying to make melee weaker then ranged which dosent make sense to me but then again it makes Cents for them..................... I play an Immortal-spec Juggernaut, so I'm used to hitting someone like it was stabbing them with a wet noodle. You all have my sympathies and condolences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verfolne Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 It means your crits do 5% less healing/damage than before with 250 surge. With a 40% crit rate, your hps/dps drops by less than 3%. The only thing that's really getting hurt is surge relics and adrenals and players relying on those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crawler Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) so my crit mult will drop by 10% ... i never expected that "nerf surge by 10%" will mean that... and if i would use relic then i gain 2% crit mult.. whaaat? oh well time to move from surge to crit and forget about 5k achi forever Edited February 10, 2012 by Crawler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lagmonster Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 It means your crits do 5% less healing/damage than before with 250 surge. With a 40% crit rate, your hps/dps drops by less than 3%. The only thing that's really getting hurt is surge relics and adrenals and players relying on those. And you're factoring in the crit damage/healing bonus talents into this equation? I find that highly unlikely that you are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verfolne Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 And you're factoring in the crit damage/healing bonus talents into this equation? I find that highly unlikely that you are No, I don't. If you include those the effect is even smaller as those talents do not affect diminishing returns on the surge stat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lagmonster Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 No, I don't. If you include those the effect is even smaller as those talents do not affect diminishing returns on the surge stat. And where is your math to back up your claims? Whats the formula? How is the +30% crit damage bonus talent factored into the normal damage and surge formula when you don't have those talents? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprigum Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Either way you slice it we're going to be more adversely affected than other classes. As a Medic Spec healer in an operation I roll with around 42% crit buffed, and about 85% Surge rating. Losing 10% off roughly 42% of my heals is about a 4.2% decrease in all healing throughput. It's not like we can stack alacrity and be successful. As the class that relies on criticals heavily for healing this is going to cause some problems. I don't know if it will "break" us but it's certainly going to disproportionately effect us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verfolne Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) And where is your math to back up your claims? Whats the formula? How is the +30% crit damage bonus talent factored into the normal damage and surge formula when you don't have those talents? Crit % = C Surge % = S Crit damage from talents = T Non-crit dmg = D Actual crit damage is normal damage * ( 1 + surge + bonus from talents). This is fairly easy to test with abilties that do consistent damage and is left as an exercise to the reader. Total damage = (1 - C)*D + C*(1+S+T)*D With the numbers in the OP and 40% crit: Old damage = (1 -0.4)*D + 0.4*(1 + .82)*D = 0.6 D+ 0.728 D = 1.328 D New damage = (1 -0.4)*D + 0.4*(1 + .73)*D = 0.6D + 0.692 D = 1.292 D Damage loss is (1.328 - 1.292) D / 1.328 D = 0.027 or 2.7%. If you include crit damage from talents: Old damage = (1 - 0.4)*D + 0.4*(1 + .82 + T)*D = (1.328 + 0.4*T ) D New damage = (1 -0.4)*D + 0.4*(1 + .73 + T)*D = (1.292 + 0.4*T) D Damage loss is ( (1.328 + 0.4*T) - (1.292 + 0.4*T)*DD / (1.328 + 0.4*T) *D = (1.328 - 1.292)*D / (1.328 + 0.4*T) D which is less than the result above for any T > 0. Edit: Just crits, with 250 surge: Old damage: 1.82 D New damage = 1.73 D Damage loss =~ 4.9% For fun, the numbers for crits with 800 surge Old damage = 1.98 D New damage = 1.80 D Damage loss =~ 9.1% The effect is pretty significant in this case, and you're very likely much better off with a power relic/adrenal instead. Edited February 10, 2012 by verfolne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deezo Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Well i see that Bioware dont care at all about keeping there members so far alot of people been quiting this game and soon i will too.. they just working against the players... they soo stupid well keep it up and this going to be a free to play game soon like the rest. GG for wow killer lol.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrolite Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Is this the part where Bioware undoes the arbitrary nerf to Acid Blade? Guessing not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apocryphas Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) As a focus JG I averaged 377-450k a game with 0 surge (not even full champ). Now that I have surge/gear and I average ~450-550k easily. The patch barley put a dent in those numbers. So no, its not huge at all. Edited February 15, 2012 by Apocryphas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stadulator Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 dunno why somone said to roll a sorc, we rely on surge also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoff Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 dunno why somone said to roll a sorc, we rely on surge also. Maybe so, but the longer the fight goes on, the longer range has to dominate due to kiting. Operatives have no gap closer and therefore if they can't kill you ASAP, they lose. Once you are > 10m, the operative loses. Without the initial burst, operative's pitiful ranged damage isn't enough to finish people off. Also, I'm pretty sure sorc shields can't crit and therefore received a significant buff this patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tharnvedra Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 All healers are buffed like hell. I can run around as operative healer and tank 2-3 DPS guys and keep in mind we are the worst of the 3 pvp healers. Its a joke now when 2-3 DPSers cant kill a single commando/merc healer Did they even test their patch? Give a commando healer guard or taunt for him or perhaps a second healer is around ... unkillable. We have 2-3 really good smugglers/operatives on our server fully geared. Without my CC break I was dead as operative healer when they jumped me. Now I just wait until their 5.5s stun is gone. After that just CC them or vanish a bit and keep healing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavenlyBluE Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 good thing surge was a ****** stat for healers before the patch. This should be a buff to all the bad operative healers that were stacking surge. Now they can get some useful stats like power, alacrity, and crit. Most will be too lazy to re-tool their gear though, and will simply not notice the change as they will just overheal for less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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